Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign, the New Age and occult practices, including witchcraft, ufology, altered states of consciousness, and more. How did she find her way back to the Catholic Church? That's what we're going to talk about today on Crisis Point. Hello, I'm Eric Simmons, your host editor chief of Crisis magazine. Before we get started, I want to encourage people to smash that like button to subscribe to the channel, let other people know about what we're doing here. Also, you can follow us on social media at Crisis Mag. You can also subscribe to our email newsletter. Just go crisis magazine.com, put in your email address and we will send you our articles every morning, usually two articles a day, right to your inbox. We really appreciate, though, when you let other people know about it and help us grow the channel. Okay, so today we have a very interesting guest, I think an interesting backstory. Teresa Yaneris was heavily involved for years in New Age and occult practices. She came to realize that these things were demonic in nature and was eventually freed from them. She now works to help others trapped in the New Age belief system. She's the editor in chief of Spirit Sanctified and the author of the new book Freedom from Darkness, a Roadmap of Deliverance from Spiritual Bondage and the Occult from Sophia Institute Press. Welcome to program, Theresa. Love to have you here.
[00:01:23] Speaker B: Thank you so much for having me, Eric. I'm excited for the conversation today.
[00:01:26] Speaker A: Yeah, first time I found out because you reached out to me about having an article of Crisis which you ran a couple weeks ago. I'll put a link to that. But then your book, somehow it wasn't on my radar, this book. And then all of a sudden I saw, I was like, whoa, this is crazy.
This is quite a story. And I was like, I got to have you on the podcast because I want to hear about what you've been through, but also which what I think is most important in the end is how do we help others who. Who are going through what you went through?
Okay, so why don't we just start at the beginning? I said you grew up Catholic, but what was your. That means a lot of things these days. It could mean many different things. I should say, what did it mean for you? Like how. How Catholic was it growing up? What was your belief system? What was your family life and like that growing up?
[00:02:08] Speaker B: Yeah. So I usually like to bring up two parts of my childhood upbringing to help give a foundation, to help people understand why I ended up eventually getting involved in the occult. So I kind of like to lay it out like this. First things first. Before I was born, my dad was in the Air Force and my family was stationed at RAF Woodbridge in the UK during the time of what has become known now as the Rendlesham Forest incident. So for those of you who don't know, this is kind of like UK's Roswell. So if you heard about the Roswell incident, so it was a mass UFO sighting. There were hundreds of people that witnessed these UFOs in the sky. There was allegedly a government cover up, cover up all these things. And so I was born into a family that was already into conspiracy, media and government conspiracy and UFOs and things like that. So there was kind of a paranormal bent to my upbringing. But then on the other side, devout Catholic. So my father and mother, very devout Catholic. We went to church every Sunday. We were very faith filled home and we had that foundation. One anecdote I like to bring in here is that when I lived in Virginia with my family, we went to St Elizabeth Ann Seton Catholic Church. And the priest, Father James Bruce, he experienced the wounds of stigmata. There were statues at the church that would, the statues of Mary that would cry at times. And hundreds of people witnessed this event. It was in Time magazine. There would be rosaries that would change colors and miraculous healings and those sorts of things. So when you look just as like, like at my childhood as a child, I was raised around this concept that there was a spiritual realm, there was something going on more than what met the eye. I was interested in not only the paranormal, but the supernatural. And so I got into eventually in college, really getting off of the path. But those are kind of the two beginning parts that I like to bring in. And ultimately I think because of that Catholic foundation, it was really great and easy for me to come back to the church. Coming out on the other side of these things, I had a wonderful support system to help me with that.
[00:04:08] Speaker A: Yeah, did your parents, were your parents able to distinguish kind of between the legitimately supernatural and what would be potentially demonic or fraud or things like that? Because my guess is the average parent is not Catholic. Parent is not really equipped to do that. I mean, be able to distinguish those things. I mean, because we talk about things like saints flying and stigmatas and things like that. So for a kid that all sounds wonderful and great, but then if they hear about something else, like something paranormal or whatever the case may be, some of the stuff we're going to talk about later, like it might not. There's no distinguishing. Did your parents ever try to distinguish that or is it more just not really talked about and just kind of something just kind of around you?
[00:04:56] Speaker B: My parents were very clear about coming against the occult and coming against these practices that I eventually got involved in. So it was like a pretty clear break. But there was also a factor with my dad that we'll get into later. So there was. There were some things that occurred from a worldview standpoint with my father that actually kind of softened my resolve against these practices. But I will say that as a child, what I experienced in the household was we talked about it, parents sat us down and talked about those sorts of things and how to stay away from them.
[00:05:28] Speaker A: Okay, so then after. So that's how you're raised. Actually, I want to take one step back before I ask you how you then start getting to New Age occult stuff like that. I think the term New Age can mean many things to many people. And so it's a very broad umbrella term. And so what exactly was. When you talk about New Age, how would you define it?
[00:05:51] Speaker B: So I've actually created a definition because I know, like, I agree with you, it's kind of all over the place. So I say the New Age is a belief system that blends beliefs centered on self perception and experience, falsely claiming that mental, emotional and physical practices lead to spiritual enlightenment. So there's a conflation with spiritual enlightenment and growth. So it promotes human evolution toward enhanced abilities without acknowledging a personal God, and is false, fundamentally rooted in pride and self deification, which violates the first commandment.
[00:06:24] Speaker A: Okay, well, that's good. I like that. I mean, because it really does. Because the problem is one of the reasons, I think New Age becomes very popular because it does have a very religious flavor to it. And people are naturally seeking religion and spiritual life because they know there's something beyond us in this, in this universe. And so they reach out for that. So I like that. So the first part, repeat again to me the first part about like, is it like you create yourself? What is it you said at the beginning there?
[00:06:50] Speaker B: It blends beliefs centered on the self perception and experience, and falsely claims that mental, emotional and physical practices lead to some for form of spiritual growth, which I call like false sanctification. So it's really a lot of these things around law of Attraction or being able to manifest your reality and those sorts of things that are centered on the self and the attempt to achieve personal goals through changing thought patterns.
[00:07:15] Speaker A: Right, that, that's great. I like that definition because it really does kind of distinguish between what supernatural, miraculous things happening which are always to be given. The credit is given to God. Even if a saint works them, it's always ultimately through God, not the self. It's not like we have some special powers, but instead God gives us. It makes everything happen. So then when did you, so you went, you did you go. I don't know if you went to college or what happened. When did you first start getting introduced and kind of being at least tempted or attracted to these, these various new age and occult practices?
[00:07:50] Speaker B: So I went to the University of Texas, Arlington. I have a degree in journalism. And when I was in college, it was actually when I would say the softening in my worldview began because in this college there were atheistic professors teaching the Bible, twisting up scripture, getting me all confused. I was confirmed and had, you know, a 16 year old faith, but I was going somewhere. But then I went to college and started to get really confused because you, you know, I'm looking at these professors, they've got PhDs, they seem to have authority. And I think because of my upbringing around conspiracy media and that already resistance to authority, that really kind of moved me over to the other camp where I'm going, well, like can I really trust the Catholic Church's authority? And so my main flag or question came up around the concept of authority. So I eventually walked away. This is where I talk about disaffiliation from religion being really kind of the first step. Step that most people take who end up getting involved in the new age and, or the occult.
[00:08:52] Speaker A: Okay, this is something I gotta address right now because it's, it's a very good point. I think a lot of people who listen to this podcast, and I'm including myself in this, we have a tendency to be resistant to authority, like our government authorities, like because of like Covid and everything else. And we are, and I say we, I mean, it's like we are susceptible more to conspiracy theories. And I personally think that's not a bad thing per se.
But I think that's actually a very good point. You just made that if you're raising your kids, you got to be careful on that. If you're getting too much in the conspiracy theories, like how would you, I mean, what would you say from your experience is kind of that balance, especially when raising kids of the conspiracy theories, like sometimes we found that they're true, but yet like you said, it went for it. So it went from being against authority in some cases to also now you're questioning the authority of the Catholic Church, which now you have a Problem. So how do you like kind of balance all that?
[00:09:59] Speaker B: It's a great question. I'm actually very passionate about this topic. I'm writing an academic paper, I'm doing an academic study actually on this topic of conspiracy media, conspiracy worldviews and the impacts on subcultures. And so online specifically we bring in QAnon, but the concept of conspiracy media leading to paranoia and fear and anger and those sorts of things. And so what's interesting is that there actually is a pretty large overlap between conspiracy media or an interest in conspiracy media leading to the occult. There's a large overlap. There's an addictive function within conspiracy media that can lead to what I call information idolatry or this idea that the more woke information or hidden occult information that you can seek and find, it's very addictive because it's growing. And there's a lot more out there that you can go into these research rabbit holes on some kind of conspiracy thread and it can just kind of lead you deeper and deeper. But there's also the occult flap there because they're, they're so connected that when you start to have an interest in seeking something that's hidden, you get into like alternative history, those sorts of things. What starts to break down. We get, we're getting now into postmodernism and deconstructionism, because what you start to see is the fabric of all of it falls apart. When you start to get into conspiracy media, you go, well, okay, if I can't trust authority, if I can't trust history, if I can't trust. Because you, you believe in the cabals that are trying to control the world and those sorts of things, and all of that starts to fall apart. You become more receptive to things that are hidden. And a lot of people that are super into conspiracy media. And I'm talking now about the people that are running a lot of the conspiracy media. Most of them are occultists. And so that's actually how I got into the occult, was through conspiracy media. I was what you could call like a conspiracy media pundit. I was a talking head on conspiracy media and ufology as a journalist. And that was what draw as I got into. I didn't know it was a cult, but I, I entered a cult of these media people and they were all occultists. And when you come out on the other side of it, you can see it clearer for what it is, which is why I'm so passionate now about this particular issue, especially given how popular it's becoming because of Even the mainstream media covering UFOs, I'm finding that in the TV shows that I'm on and podcasts and radio, I. I'm getting more and more people asking me this question about ufology because it is growing in newsworthiness.
[00:12:36] Speaker A: Oh, yeah, we're going to talk about that in a minute. I definitely want to address that. Okay, real quick, though. When you say occultist, you said they're occultist. What do you mean by that? Because I think some people might mean they're. They're explicitly worshiping demons or Satan or something like that. What do you mean when you say somebody's an occultist?
[00:12:53] Speaker B: Okay, so let's talk about what the occult is. I'm going to give you again my definition of the occult that I've put together, because I know these things are very obfuscated when you try to get to the bottom of what they are. So this is how I define the occult. The occult is a belief system focused on uncovering hidden knowledge and wielding concealed power through ritualistic practices, often fueled by satanic signs and wonders. It involves both the light occult, which is what I call the shiny veneer or the deceptive surface level allure, and the dark occult, which is the hidden sinister reality. So the core of this is the basis of this, is trying to uncover hidden knowledge and wield concealed power through ritualistic practices. And there's often demonic signs and wonders that come in with this, but not necessarily.
[00:13:42] Speaker A: Okay, that's great. I appreciate that. I think this whole. Okay, I want to hear now your story then, like you just said, you went from conspiracy kind of theory and media to into more occult. So how did that happen? Let's go back to your story of. So you're in college, you're softened because of people undermining religion. I think every Catholic parent, that's their big fear is that their kid will go off to college and everything they were taught before gets undermined, you know, through no fault of theirs. And they're trying and all that. So how did that then lead from your softening to now you move on to conspiracy media or whatever the case and occult practices.
[00:14:20] Speaker B: So I graduated from college and then I went off into the world. I guess you could say I was agnostic at the time because I believe in God. But I was. I had had that break from religion. And so about five years later was when I met a guy who was really into conspiracy media. And so I started doing a lot more heavy research into conspiracy media, alternative history, Nikola Tesla, things like that. Energy and psychic Power and stuff like that. At the time, my father had. He was starting to get into some new age stuff. And so he sent me this book on reincarnation. So I'm tying the bow on that. Earlier he sent me this book on reincarnation. And in that time I started to get interested now more into the occult side of things, which was leading me into researching, like, alternative states of consciousness, altered states of consciousness. And so then what basically happened around that time was I think the demons started to get involved. Like, I started to have some really weird things happen in my house after experiencing spontaneous out of body experiences which then led me. So this was about 10 years ago now. I decided to write a book about trying to reconcile what was happening to me with Catholicism. So even though I was not a practicing Catholic, it was actually that project for me made me start going back into the church. And although I did not have a theological foundation, I was still just kind of going online and, and not doing a great job at all of cherry picking what I thought was gonna prove things up. Which is another reason why I'm so passionate about what I do now is about getting in the weeds on what actually divination is. Because I think that's a big one that people, people get into. They think, oh, well, I'm not trying to see the future. So that's not divination. So I'm covered. The Bible says that you can't do divination, but then when you actually go and get down and into it, divination is seeking hidden knowledge. It doesn't matter if it's past, present or future. And if I had had somebody tell me that, if someone was equipped enough to tell me that back then, I might have even said, okay, well, maybe I don't want to do that, you know. So it was just a soup of confusion for me. But it did lead me deeper into these practices like tarot cards and channeling and that kind of thing. And so all of that started to happen before I even tipped into more of the media side. It was after I wrote that book, my first book called what Is Magic? Which is total awful book. Heretical Piece of Trash is what I like to call it. But it was after that that I actually launched a YouTube channel and started talking about the new age online. And then I got pulled into a media, an online media cult of occultists, and they were into ufology and stuff like that.
[00:16:58] Speaker A: So your new book is like a penance for your other book?
[00:17:02] Speaker B: Absolutely.
[00:17:04] Speaker A: Actually, you know, funny, because before we, we did this Podcast. I was doing a little research on you and I saw where like some book you wrote, I guess was the magic word or something like that. I was just like, oh, she really was into it, wasn't she?
She's not making this up. She really did do this stuff.
So. Okay, so like, what are some, like, practices, like entry level practices? Because obviously when you first get interested in it, you're not doing full blown witchcraft and stuff like that. Most people, I would think, I would think something gets you into. Is it like Ouija boards or tarot cards or something? I mean, what is it that kind of gets you? What are the gateway drugs, so to speak, into this, into this movement?
[00:17:48] Speaker B: So I, I feel like with this question I have to be very responsible because there are times where people will soften just because they don't know really what we're dealing with here. We can't soften. Like, I don't like to use the word dabble or entry level things because I have seen people get possessed the very first time that they have used an occult item. So it's really important that we have a distinction here of just being responsible about the topic itself. Like when I talk about gateway drugs or gateway factors, I'm more so talking about deconstructionism, destructive feminism, those sorts of things, alternative healing, and then you have like actual occult practices. The reason why I try to just be really clear on these things is that a person coming out of the occult might try to actually soften their culpability around what they've done by saying, oh, well, nothing worked, or oh, I just dabbled where it's like, no, you were actually doing witchcraft. And when they are able to actually take responsibility for what they did, that starts the process of getting out of the world views. Because the real reality is all these things comes down to worldview. When a person engages in these practices, there's an undergirding worldview that tells them what they're valuing, how they see the world, why they're thinking and feeling the way that they feel, and then why they're doing the actions that they're doing. So when a person cuts off an occult practice, if they still have all the other things underneath that, which, which undergirds to a worldview there, they could still have demonic issues where. So when we get into kind of the concept of, of the demonization, these things are all important.
[00:19:22] Speaker A: Okay, that's good to know. Yeah. So for yourself then, in your story, you, you took a job as in conspiracy media, is that right? Like Basically kind of talking about these stories. And so that then led you to more occultist practices in your own life, is that right?
[00:19:38] Speaker B: Exactly. I would say the first one that I really took on, like, deeply was tarot cards. The first time I got a tarot deck because I didn't know really what these things were. I'd never seen a tarot deck in my life. So I was. I used the excuse that, oh, I'm a researcher, I'm writing this book. And so I got online and I. I purchased a tarot deck. And I knew what my parents had taught us about these things. So, like, I was. I was still going, well, who can I trust? Maybe they don't know what they're talking about, you know? And so I got the tarot deck and I started to learn how to read tarot cards within the third day. Looking back now, I see that there were already signs of demonization occurring, even in the very beginning. And so by day three, I remember waking up on my bed and the tarot cards were all around me, and I didn't remember falling asleep. And so I would remember sometimes, like, it would feel like my energy was being sapped. So I got online. I'm like, has anybody ever, you know, I'm Google searching. Has anybody ever, like, had felt like their energy was sapped while reading tarot cards? You know, and people are like, oh, yeah, there's a whole bunch of people online that will teach all kinds of things about witchcraft. It's all not true. But, like, anyway, so I learned basically about witchcraft at that point because they're like, oh, well, you need to protect yourself when you're doing these practices. So then you're. What the occult does is it leads you deeper and deeper because one practice is never enough. If you do one practice and it seems to work, then it's like, oh, well, what else might work? And so it's this black hole of going down this rabbit hole of taking on more and more occult practices. Now with tarot cards. For me, when I started to read for other people, this was where it became.
Now, looking back, it was obvious that the demons were getting involved because I would have visions and of things about this person's life, a person that I didn't know I would get information from these demons, didn't know they were demons, but that's where the information come came from. And I would give it to this person who I was reading for. Now, what this does, tarot cards by themselves, that's an idol. But then when you have a tarot card reader, that's a double whammy. Idol. Now, a person is also that idol. And so this person sitting across from you receiving this reading, they're using an idol and then they're going to an idol to have them read for them. And it's all based on either the human imagination. Right. Because when we talk about inspirations, this stuff's either coming from the person's human mind, which is not. Not divine wisdom, period, or it's coming from demons, which you don't want anything to do with that. And so e way it's just either, you know, the human or it's the demon, but it's not God. This is. God doesn't speak through idols. And so it cuts a person off from prayer because they become more and more encapsulated by the occult and their eyes become locked on that which is perishing and spiritually dead, keeping them away from the truth of God.
[00:22:26] Speaker A: So you were reading them to others, is that right? You. You. You became a reader? I mean, I'm not really familiar with most of these practices, I'll be honest. So I'm not always. I might ask the question actually properly, but. So you were reading them for others?
[00:22:39] Speaker B: Yes, I was reading them for myself and others. I became pretty. Actually, it made pretty good money. When you look at people that are in the new age in the occult, they can start all kinds of businesses and make some pretty good money. But, yeah, people pay for tarot card readings, so that was what I did.
[00:22:53] Speaker A: When you're reading it to somebody, are you like, predicting their future, telling? I mean, what is kind of being told to them in general? Not to get specifics, but, like, just in general, what are you telling people when you're reading tarot cards?
[00:23:03] Speaker B: Yeah. So for me, the way that I had tricked myself into thinking this was okay, even though I was not a practicing Catholic at the time, I still, like, had that kind of undergirding attempt of a moral code. And I would say, you know, I'm just trying to look at someone's present. That's a very common one. When I work with people coming out of the occult, they're like, well, I'm. I was just using the tarot cards to try to understand it. You're looking at archetypes or pictures in a certain way, pattern. And then it's helping you sort of get creative about what, what you could do, what you can do to solve your issues or whatever. And so at a base level, I think that's like where a lot of people get even Christians get tripped up in it because they think it's okay. But the core of it is you're seeking occult knowledge. That's why it breaks the first commandment, because you're putting that up over going to God. Does that make sense?
[00:23:52] Speaker A: Yes. Yes. Okay, now, you've mentioned once or twice witchcraft. Now, I think witchcraft, a lot of people will think it's either kind of a joke, something like Halloween, or it's Harry Potter or it's something like that. What exactly do you mean when you say you were involved in witchcraft?
[00:24:09] Speaker B: It's very important to define witchcraft because a lot of people I've worked with, Christians that didn't know that they were doing witchcraft. And they were. And so I'm going to go ahead and define witchcraft. This is again, my definition. It is the attempt to control, manipulate, or generate a desired result by means of invocation, which is to call in and. Or evocation, which is to call forth of demonic spirits, whether knowingly or unknowingly, plus ritualistic practice. So when we're talking about witchcraft at a base level, the way I teach this is it always comes down to two things. One of two things, or maybe both. Invocation or evocation. So you have this concept of a person attempting to control occult powers by calling something in or calling something forth. Now this is actually, unfortunately, in America today, very common. One of the main ones is the law of attraction or manifestation. People get drawn into this practice, which is witchcraft, and they're actually invoking or evoking a desired result by inadequate means. Which is the definition on new advent.org it's by inadequate means. That's kind of the core of this, is that a person, and you mentioned this earlier so astutely, people think they can control this power, but they can't. It's Satan's power that he offloads here and there because he's got a little bit of power to do that right now. But people think that they can control it and they can't.
[00:25:34] Speaker A: Okay, so you're in this world of witchcraft, Tarot cards, occult, things like that describe what. What's that world like? Like, obviously it's, it's attractive in some way because people join it and they stay in it and it. And they, they, they think, they feel like they're happy in it or whatever. Otherwise, nobody would join. Otherwise. So what's this world like? I mean, is there a conference circuit, is there communities online? I mean, like, how, how does this work?
[00:25:58] Speaker B: I think people are looking for community. And when you get into the heart of, I guess the cult I was in, it was a system of cults really. But a lot of it starts online with online cults. And so you interested in different aspects of conspiracy media, different aspects of ufology, different aspects of the occult. And then they are invited to go to these conferences. And so you go to these conferences and you have speakers and authors and you're learning about this different material. You're making friendships which actually can make it harder to get out of it. Right. And so whenever you learn, like when I learned the falsity in it, you leave the cult, you leave all of those people and all of those things behind because you realize that the heart of it, what's at the heart of it is this deception, you know. And so it's. It's really quite remarkable how large these cults are. In the traveling that I did around America, the groups of thousands of people, I think a lot of it started with ancient aliens. People got into ancient aliens and that started kind of the beginning of, I guess the new wave or modern wave of online spiritualism of this.
[00:27:09] Speaker A: Like, wasn't there a show on the History Channel about that?
[00:27:13] Speaker B: Yes, that's Ancient Aliens. It's on his. The History Channel. So that has like millions of followers.
[00:27:18] Speaker A: And you're saying that really was like an entryway into these occult new age practices.
[00:27:23] Speaker B: I think that that was the beginning of like one of the newer waves because obviously, like, we could go pretty far back on all this. But I think that what I've seen, what I've personally seen, and I'm 37, so it's like in my millennial ness, it's like, I think a lot of people sort of started with ancient aliens. And then it sort of started to magnify the more and more conspiracy media became really popularized and mainstream right now.
[00:27:50] Speaker A: I know, like, okay, back in. I'm older and so I remember in the 80s there was a big like Satan scare about people becoming Satanists and things like that. In the, in this new age and occult movement, like these kind of stuff, is there ever explicitly a, like Satanism or is it. Or is it always. That's just kind of you. You now know it's demonic underneath. But they never explicitly said like, hail Satan or anything like, or anything like that. How did that work?
[00:28:17] Speaker B: I think this is a really responsible question. I'm really like, glad that you asked this because it's. It's quite interesting. I would say that in what I experienced, there was just a really big conglomeration. You never really knew what someone was going to put on because people put on their beliefs like a hat, it's like a cafeteria, you know. And people are just like, oh, well, I want a little bit of this and a little bit of that. But in my experience, I don't, I mean I, I knew some people that would claim to be Satanists and have the tattoos and stuff like that, but I think that even Satanism is a whole thing to crack open. It's a very large topic because some people that would claim to be Satanists, they're not actually, they would not be actually claiming to worship Satan. They would say it's more of an archetype and it's more of like a joke at Christians. That's not really like, you see what I'm saying. But then you have other Satanists that would claim to be Satanists that would actually claim to be worshiping Satan. So it's a little bit of a different thing. But I think to answer your question directly, to hit the core of this is that the majority of people that are in the New Age and the occult, first of all, they wouldn't call themselves New Agers and they wouldn't call themselves occultists. These are words that I'm using to describe very specific definitions. But even when I was in the New age with a full blown New age worldview, I would have said I'm not a New Ager, I don't resonate with that. I would have said that, you know, even though when you get down into it and this is why words are so important, it's like, how are we even able to classify and define? Which is why I like to talk about spiritual but not religious because we do have statistics more on, on those sorts of things and to talk about the beliefs directly.
[00:29:49] Speaker A: Yeah, that was a great arc. We had a crisis about that, about people, the, the people who are kind of leaving the nuns, the people leave an O n at es leaving religion. And they're spiritual, not religious. Well, what are they spiritual about now? What, so what would you call yourself then? If you, when you were in this, what did you kind of, if somebody asked what your beliefs, what do you believe? Or are you agnostic, are you Christian, whatever, what would you say about yourself back then?
[00:30:13] Speaker B: I would have, I would have said that I believed that there were many paths to God. So I think that it would probably have been like very universalist. I probably would have identified with that and used a whole bunch of New age speak to get there. But I think that the, what was really interesting Looking back on all of that, it was so hard to anchor people down to answering that question of what they believed. And if you look at. And none of them are live anymore, they're not on my YouTube channel. But some of my older interviews with some of these really popular media people would be really difficult to actually track with them because they had. They would just be kind of like word salad all over the place. And it'd be hard to actually understand what they believed because there was no anchor point to any of it. It was just very relative on what somebody would choose to say they believed, and it would be very different person to person.
[00:31:03] Speaker A: Yeah, that's interesting that. I mean, I didn't realize that New Age people typically didn't call themselves New Age. I thought that was their own title for it or something like that. But so it really sounds like it's everybody for themselves. They have a generic. They kind of have their own, like, here's my path to enlightenment or whatever the case may be.
And would some. Would you say that many of them would have even called themselves Christian potentially?
[00:31:26] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. And I think that, like, the kind of aspect of the New Age thing, a lot of these people would say, oh, I'm not into that love and life stuff. That's love and light stuff is weird. They would think it was just like, oh, crystals. And that's weird. But what a lot of these people were, they were into really deep conspiracy, which was leading them into an interest in the occult and UFOs. And so they were actually doing occult practices without really knowing that that's what it was or even thinking that it was bad, because they would say that they're, some of them culturally Christian, but they were not practicing Christianity at all. So it's. It's really quite a mess. I mean, I. Even when I was in the New Age, I would have said that I was Christian up to a certain point. And then finally I realized inside of me, like, that there was really no way I could claim Christianity. And so for about a year, I wouldn't claim Christianity until the Lord saved me and then wrenched me out of all of it.
[00:32:20] Speaker A: I was like, okay, we. It's been touched upon a few times, but now I really want to get into heart of the whole UFO thing. So obviously this is becoming more and more a big deal in our culture. We have the government hearings about it. We have a lot of people claiming that there's these UFO encounters. And of course, it's been going on for decades that people have said there's, you Know Roswell all the way back in, before that. And so what? Okay, so I guess I want to just ask like you were really into it. What did you believe about like UFOs and aliens and things of that nature? What was your kind of how. Because you seem to really be into it back then. So what was your beliefs back then?
[00:33:01] Speaker B: I was trying to figure out what I believed. And I think that's why I was so drawn to it, was because I went the first time I met all of these people who were really famous in these, in this field, I was pulled in pretty quickly. I think I was identified and pulled into the occult pretty quickly because of my background in journalism. They're like, hey, we could use someone like that. And so I immediately was able to interview a lot of these people. And so I was just in that kind of phase of trying to figure out what was going on. Now the, the thing is about. And I kind of want to take a couple steps back. When we talk about ufology, I feel like we kind of need to break this up a little bit because it's such a wide range of a field that within ufology you have different subcultures or different topics. And I think that it's prudent to describe. When we talk about UFOs, you're going to have a whole set of research and researchers and interest on more of the military, black projects side of craft. That would be human craft, human created craft. And then you have the interest on the other side, which would be like potentially extraterrestrial craft and technology. And so those are kind of the two different aspects here that collide and fight and don't really get along. And there's a lot of different, you know, beliefs around that. Now, back then, to answer you directly, I would have believed that, you know, there was a difference between military cover ups and potentially extraterrestrial craft. I would have believed back then at a certain point that there might actually be extraterrestrial craft. I know now, given what I know looking back and, and through everything I've been through, it's like the, when you get into Second Thessalonians chapter two and you really understand satanic signs and wonders and how this deception works.
A lot of this UFO stuff, it's a deception to draw people into delusion. And there absolutely are satanic signs and wonders that draw a person into believing that we can communicate with this E. T Thing going on. And so it actually draws people into channeling, which then can actually draw people into even demonic possession because they're calling demons and they don't realize that this is a demonic display. Display. I call it a display. But they're engaging now with it. They're invoking or evoking it. They're doing witchcraft. Even though that's usually they don't know that's what they're doing, but they're now messing with. They're playing with it. It's almost like they're engaging now with the demonic. They're creating packs with the demonic because they're interested in what they believe to be paranormal. They don't realize it's evil preternatural forces coming in to interface with them.
[00:35:55] Speaker A: So are the. Is the typical person who's into ufology, are they basically thinking, okay, these are extraterrestrials who have come here and they have some type of superior knowledge or enlightenment or spiritual life, and I want to participate in that. Is that kind of what the interest is?
[00:36:13] Speaker B: I can't even classify it because in my. In the time that I spent heavily researching this topic and interviewing people and getting in the weeds on it, there are so many different beliefs. Like, when you go into it, there's so much infighting because people believe different things. And a lot of this stuff is based on research that is just really. It's more like misinformation and disinformation you're dealing with. And then the people that are legit researchers, they're not popular. They don't get the views because it's so commercialized that it's really hard to find the good research hidden underneath the cacophony of noise of these just really kooky kind of people talking about things that are interesting. So that. I know that's not really a complete answer, but I just, I've seen people believe a lot of different things about it. Yeah, that's part of the interest for people is that they want to try to figure out what they believe. Yeah.
[00:37:11] Speaker A: What's an example or two of like a alien encounter that is maybe popular in the UFO world, but it's clearly something that you can see now is. Has at least demonic over undertones in it.
[00:37:28] Speaker B: Yes. Thank you for asking this. So there are places in America that people will call UFO hotspots and people will go. The belief behind it is that there's some extra energy on the land that you can harness. Right. So this is going to draw in people that are interested in the occult and so they go to these places. I've. I've been to these places when I was in the Occult. And they will take big groups of people, they'll go outside at night and they will call them down, quote, unquote. That's what they call it, call them down, which is actually a term that's used in. In different forms of witchcraft. But they're essentially evoking the demonic and they don't know that's what it is. They think they're calling down aliens. And so you will see all kinds of things in the sky. I've seen things in the sky that are responding, quote, unquote, to the group of people out there calling them down. So they think that they can communicate with these, whether they believe they're beings or actual craft, because beliefs differ on it they are interested in. It's almost like a movie for them. It's like they're gonna go out there with their popcorn and do their evocation and. And then they're gonna take pictures and talk about what it is. And then it's like it just fuels itself. And so. So there's that. So you have like the demonic, potentially the what. What appears to be demonic. But I also think that it would be responsible to bring in the other side too, where I think, because there's so much money in this, I think that in some cases you have people running these operations, and they're probably bringing some drones out and flying drones around up there to really get people thinking there's something going on. So I think we have kind of. We two different potential things going on. But I have absolutely seen things in the sky that defy the laws of gravity. And I firmly believe that those were demonic signs and wonders, especially given that these people were doing occult practices and channeling directly preceding these events. And I saw this happen in multiple different places.
[00:39:21] Speaker A: So at the time when you see this, what were you thinking? Like, was this. Were you thinking, okay, I'm drawing closer to the divine energies? Or I think, how did it. How did it improve your life? How did you think it was, like, making you better or whatever the case may be.
[00:39:37] Speaker B: So I've created a term called occult snapping. And this is in my book that I wrote. And the reason why I created this was to describe events and experiences that end up drawing people deeper into a belief in the occult. So what we just described would be an. An example of what I would call occult snapping. And how does this play out? It always starts with curiosity. So there's a lie, and a human is curious about this, and then they go and they do that sin, right? So now they're engaging in Witchcraft. They've evoked this demonic response. Now there's an. There's a feature that happens in occult snapping, which I call the display. So you have some satanic sign or wonder. Now this is very destabilizing to a worldview. So this person experiences now a worldview destabilization is what I call it. So what it does is because they're seeing something that they've never seen before, they're shocked and they're going, well, now I have to kind of throw out some of the things I believed before. I need to revamp my belief system because I've just seen something in the sky that I can't accept, explain that I thought for real, like, would never happen. But now here it is. I have to reconcile this now with my belief system. And so what it does is you have this interest now that's being. That's going deeper because this person believes that there's some value in it, and they're even more curious about it now. And so this would be a pretty big example of what might draw a person deeper to research. What are UFOs, what is this? And drawing them deeper in to the concept of free energy and power, like you mentioned and things like that.
[00:41:15] Speaker A: Yeah, And I can see how it's an attractive means for recruiting people, both if you're a demon, but also if you're just a huckster, like with the drones and things like that. Because that's. That's kind of what you're saying is like, whatever you're seeing, it is a deception. Now, it could be a human deception, it could be a demonic deception, but either way, it's not what it's being claimed to be. And. And so it. But I. That's interesting. So it suckers them more into the whole world, either helping some guy make a lot more money or helping demons bring people away from God.
[00:41:48] Speaker B: Yeah. Because if you look around it, like using this as an example, which I think it's a good example, you have a bunch of people that are doing witchcraft. They're going outside and then they're calling these things down. And then they're experiencing some event that now they're going, wow, what worked? Right. It's always that something worked. Now they're going to maybe even attribute that experience to the witchcraft they just did. So now they think the witchcraft worked to call the demons down. Demons don't care what words come out of a person's mouth. If a person's intention is to connect with something from the beyond and the demons Want to come give that response like it is what it is. But people start to create belief systems around these things that they think work right.
[00:42:28] Speaker A: And ultimately, it's important to remember what you already said, which is the people involved in this, the people who are at the bottom level, so to speak, they don't know it's demons or a, like a deception by a man or something like, you know, something like that. They don't know what they're doing is witchcraft or a cult. They just simply think, I'm communicating with extraterrestrial life and there's nothing wrong with that. Essentially, what they're thinking.
[00:42:54] Speaker B: Exactly. And I think a lot of these people, too, are more humanist anyway. Like, they would think that something like an occult practice would really just be harnessing a power that they think they already have. And so I think that's a very large belief that when you get into any of this stuff, people go, oh, it's a power that we just have as humans. It's our higher self. It's something that we can channel, that they don't actually think it's bad or evil. They think that it's something that is perfectly reasonable to do.
[00:43:20] Speaker A: Right. I want to, I want to actually ask about that in a second, because I think that's an important point. But I want to stick with the UFO just for a moment. So would you say at this point now, with your experience and where you are now, would you say that all of the UFO encounters that we, that we hear about and are even mentioned in Congress or whatever, would you say that none of them are actual extraterrestrial, but they're, at the very least, hallucination, a deception by a man or demonic or something like that? Or, or would you, Are you still open to, like, maybe it's a. There could be one or two that are, that are legit.
[00:43:58] Speaker B: I don't think any of them are extraterrestrial. I do believe that, you know, we do have military black projects, and there could be plenty of things going on that people would be like, just not in the know about, because we need our military to have black projects. That's a good thing. You know, I know there's this whole push for disclosure of everything, but it's like, okay, we need to, like, understand Homeland Security. Come on, people. You know, like, that's fine on one side, but no, I, I, I think we're dealing with the demonic, and I think that these signs are going to continue to increase until Jesus comes back. I mean, this stuff is biblical, and the More people get in the scriptures on this. They go, well, I mean, it is what it is. I think if there were extraterrestrials out there, we wouldn't be. They wouldn't be doing what they're doing. Like, I just, I don't buy it.
[00:44:38] Speaker A: That's always my argument. That is always what I say. Like, I. I get criticized for this sometimes, but I actually think it is possible there's extraterrestrials out there somewhere. I just think if they came here, they wouldn't be doing what. What these people are claiming they're doing. I mean, if you have the technology, intelligence to get all the way across the universe, I don't know how people realize how difficult that would be to do. You're not going to just show up and do these, like, seance things. I mean, it just doesn't make any sense to me. So thank you for saying that.
[00:45:04] Speaker B: But I agree with you.
[00:45:07] Speaker A: It's crazy. Okay, so.
And I also would say, wouldn't you tell me if you agree that, like, the fact is the whole alien encounter thing is, with a few minor exceptions, relatively recent in history.
And it's like, instead there was other ways that demonic forces were, you know, came in before the advent of the space race. I mean, it just. It seems to have all sudden multiplied over the last.
Coinciding exactly. With us going up into space and so, and science fiction, things like that. Which makes me think that demons are just like, hey, we can take advantage of this because these, you know, people are seeing, you know, they're out in space, they're talking about aliens of that. Let's take advantage. They're watching Star Trek and Star Wars. We can take advantage of. Does that seem like a decent working hypothesis for why there's been such a increase in alien encounters testified over the past 60, 70, 80 years?
[00:46:01] Speaker B: Yeah, it's really interesting. It. I like that theory. Also think that there are other aspects, too, where we get into, like, drug culture started to unlock around the same time. It would actually be really interesting to take that whole time in history, like, just right around then, and just kind of unpack that societally, like, what was going on. That would. Because I do agree, it's been the last, what, 60 years, like you said about that. Yeah, for sure. What, What I also also think is interesting on this, that was coming up for me as you were talking is like, when you assess or analyze the information that people are claiming to channel from these quote, unquote extraterrestrials from the Pleiades or. Andromeda or whatever, it's all so popular now. The core of it is very antichrist. The core of it is very narcissistic and self serving. It's people that feel like they're, they're getting some kind of information that's going to help unlock society that you know, the minds of the people. And it's, it's all very self serving but it completely is in opposition of the gospel because it's this idea that humans are gods and this gnostic belief in unlocking the truth from within. And so that's, and that's another factor for me that, that goes into that basket of these are demons. Because when you get outside of ufology and you go into alien communication, right now we're talking about well what, what are the aliens saying? And then when you analyze it, it's like, nope, that's demonic. This is where discernment comes in. But when you put that up next to the Bible, it's like, no, these are demons trying to trick humans away from salvation in Christ as though they can save themselves.
[00:47:41] Speaker A: Yeah, that's one reason why as Catholics we really have to be well formed, well form our kids so that we recognize when a message comes from some source, if it's contrary to the gospel, it's not going to be explicitly contrary because that's not how the devil works. Because he knows if he just, if he just comes out and says the first line is, you know, deny Jesus, most people are going to be like, no, but if you do these little ways to kind of be self centered and things like that. That's a great point.
I want to bring back to something you mentioned about the humanist angle. I know there's a big movement among people that there's, that we haven't tapped our full potential as humans. This might be, some of it might be evolutionary and things like that, but I don't think it always. I think sometimes it's just simply a matter of, you know, like the whole thing. What we only use 10 of our brain, that whole thing. And you know, like that, that movie Limitless where the guy took a drug and all of a sudden he could do all these amazing things. He was super smart. So like that. How is that kind of prevalent in the new age and cult movements? This idea that we're only kind of only running on one of our cylinders and we have a lot more that we could. And how is that then a portal into demonic?
[00:48:51] Speaker B: Yeah, it's a great question. The human potential movement is a very popular cultural trap that draws people into the occult. This idea that we really need to unlock our minds more and that we have this potential. It's a little even foundationally frustrating though, because it's very insulting to anybody with intellectual disability. So I think even at a base level, it's a, it's a not a very nice belief system. I'll just say it doesn't really seem to hold up in court. But this idea that we need to unlock more of our minds, it elevates the mind. It breaks the first commandment. Yes, we can learn things. Yes, we should. You know, I love to learn things. I love education, I love growth and, and things like that. But when we start to move into that, we cross the line over into altered states of consciousness. Now we're in the danger zone of going into psychic research. So people start to think, oh well, I can, I can connect psychically. So if a person has that belief now, they're going to actually go accidentally do witchcraft. And I was actually at an OCIA class a few months ago, just there, and one of the people there started talking about this and I was like, whoa, whoa, whoa, hold on. We need to have this conversation, you know, and unlock that part of the conversation because it was important, but it is, it's a very subversive. And you mentioned this earlier about Satan being subversive. Right. These things can sound really shiny on the surface. Like, oh, well, I could see that, I could see that, that maybe that's there's value in that.
[00:50:29] Speaker A: Do all this and God gave us all. Yeah, right, exactly.
[00:50:32] Speaker B: Yeah. But it's ultimately a trick to get a person interested in. Well, what. Maybe you do have a little bit of psychic power. Maybe that's something that you can access. See, see how interesting that sounds? Now you have curiosity. Now you're going to go do an occult practice. And then, oh, what's going to happen next? Something might quote, unquote, work where you assign some kind of correlation or causation to an occult practice. Now there's a belief attached to that lie and you're finding value in occult practices. So that's where it starts a human potential movement. That's a huge trap that gets people just ride over that hump into the occult.
[00:51:09] Speaker A: Wow, that's good to know. Now obviously, because you're on this program, you no longer are practicing or believing these things. What were. Let's hope so.
Let's hope not, I should say. So what were some of the, like, what were some of the things that started to lead you to say, wait a Second, maybe I shouldn't be doing this, or maybe this isn't good for me. Like, what were some of those first indicators to you?
[00:51:32] Speaker B: There were a lot of things that happened all at once. But I think that one of the cores for me was I was on a radio show and we were talking about alien abduction. And I mentioned, well, you know, these stories we're hearing from these quote unquote experiencers. Like, this just sounds like evil. Like, isn't that going against their free will? Like, if. So if an alien took someone out of their house and doing all these things, like, that sounds evil to me. And everyone got really uncomfortable. And then I started to go, like, what did I say? Like, I hit a button here. I didn't really understand. And then so after the. The radio show, I picked up the phone and started call people, like, hey, do you believe in evil? Like, what do you think about evil? And they're like, oh, no. Like, I don't believe in evil. Like, And I started to learn these people don't believe in evil, and they're justifying all of this, like, moral relativism. And I thought, why did I wait this long to ask these questions? And so that was kind of the beginning notch that started to kind of crack apart for me where I'm like, wait, something really didn't sit right. And then there were a few other things that happened. But ultimately I remember having the thought, what if this is all evil? And as soon as that thought hit me, these beings that were manifesting as aliens and all these different kinds of things to me, immediately shifted. Now they're manifesting as what they are. They're demons standing in my room. They started attacking me. I had bruises on my body. It was very quite scary.
[00:52:52] Speaker A: And before this, they. It was never like that for you. You had interactions with them, but it wasn't like a violence or anything like that.
[00:53:00] Speaker B: I had a couple of scary things happen, which I think ultimately was also what was starting to make the cracks begin to show was because I started to see through some of this.
[00:53:10] Speaker A: It's like the demons were kind of like, couldn't help themselves. They were kind of revealing themselves for who they are. They just can't help being evil. And so they're gonna, like, reveal their evilness a little bit more than maybe they should at times. I think that's kind of what. What happened there.
[00:53:24] Speaker B: I think what happens. And I've seen this happen in a lot of different people's experiences. And I've worked with exorcists, and I'VE worked in deliverance ministry, so I've seen quite a bit of cases on, on these types of things. I think what happens is the demon will play nice until they have a certain level of authority or access to the person. And then once they've created all those packs with this person and they have a certain level of authority over that person now they can show themselves for who they are because the person's now in over their heads and they don't know how to get out of the situation. This is where some really scary things can start to happen with demonic vexation or obsession or even possession.
[00:54:00] Speaker A: Now can you break that down a little bit of like, from our Catholic understanding, how God allows that, that you have a situation where somebody who is, you know, the demons, they're, they're accessing demon now demons, you know, revealing itself more and more. But like you're talking about, you know, vexation, obsession, possession stuff. How does God. Why does God. We can't always answer the questions why. I know that. But like, the point is, is like God is obviously allowing this and for what purposes and how would you look at that?
[00:54:30] Speaker B: Yeah, so when you get into Second Thessalonians, chapter two, and I love to look at this one when we're talking about things like this, it's like when a person chooses against God over and over and over, at a, at some point God gives them over to their sin. And in Second Thessalonians it talks about sending upon them a strong delusion. And I say, this isn't God being a meanie pants. This is not God saying, I'm gonna send upon you. If you get down into the weeds on the, on the root language, it's basically him saying, or the, the book saying that God releases them to a strong delusion because they refuse to love the truth and so be saved and instead took pleasure in unrighteousness. And so what happened in my case was it was that choice, that free will choice that I made over time, again and again. And God is sovereign overall. He is. But in my case, in this part, part of the story, you know, it was like, I think that God was allowing what was what he was allowing for me to come to repentance, to realize what was actually going on.
And at that point, when I realized what was going on, you know what? I did grab my Bible for the first time in years. And now I'm in the fetal position in my bed and I start reading the Bible. The Lord opens my eyes to the scriptures in a much, much Deeper way than he ever had before. It felt like strongholds just being pulverized in my mind. And at that moment, I remember becoming aware of my sin. So there was this. This contrition, this meeting myself where I was, and this. Oh, my goodness. My actions, my choices were choosing away from God, walking away from God. And I realized that and I called out to God. God saved me. And thank God in his sovereign love, he came in his. The presence of God came into the room, pushed all the demons out immediately, and he started showing me what to do. This was the beginning process of my deliverance, which took years. But God is wonderful. He's truly amazing and sovereign and all the. All that. And you hear. And it's interesting working with people coming out of the occult now, because it's like these people are so on fire for Christ. They are some of the most on fire for Christ people that I know, and they've been through some scary stuff, but they were clinging for dear life to Jesus as they went through it.
[00:57:03] Speaker A: That's a great point you make, though, that God, when he allows these things, it's actually a mercy because when he. It allows you to, it reveals the evil that you've been dabbling in, to use the term we don't really want to use, but, you know, the evil that you've been allowing into your life, you know, with your free will, but perhaps a little bit not realizing what you're getting yourself into. It's like God saying, okay, I'm gonna pull the curtain back a little bit. You can see what you're actually getting into. And hopefully then you will say, okay, I need God now. And that's what you did now. Okay? You hear stories, though, about people involved in this, in the demonic, and they. They have to go under exorcisms and all this stuff. And you said it took you years. Did you. I mean, what was your process of actually. Because it's not like. I mean, it is possible, St. Paul and things like that, that overnight people can be. But usually it is a long process. What did that process look like for you from that moment of in the fetal position with your Bible to now? Okay. Like, you know, you've been delivered from the. These forces.
[00:58:04] Speaker B: It all comes down to one word, worldview. That's the way I put it. So I did a whole lot of fumbling around trying to figure out what was what for a while. I ended up leaving the Internet for a while and just getting into my Bible and really spending a lot of time with the Lord. I ended up going to seminary, I ended up working with other people coming out once I got freed of it, starting to work with other people. But it's like it. It is a process. And I believe that what I see here and other experts in this agree with me, is that when we're talking about the Holy Spirit indwelling a person, like, there's this beautiful thing that happens and it takes time. This is sanctification, the beauty of it, where God arises things up in our spirit to release to the foot of the cross over time. It doesn't happen just with a one and done, because why? Because of us, because of how God's created us to become more and more conformed to him. And it's such a beautiful process. If you can. I know that, like, people coming out of the occult, I call. They enter the woods, the woods are dark, the woods are scary. And it's like, you gotta persevere. And usually at that point, people will ask me, teresa, when is this going to be over? Because if they're demonized at that point, like, they don't want to be dealing with that. And I'm like, you're just going to have to cling. We're clinging. We're surrendering, and we're clinging, okay? Because there's a whole lot of worldview shift that has to happen. So I usually start a person in theological training, but then you're also having to teach them how to pray, because at that point, if they were in the occult, they're. They're very confused about what prayer is. And so there's a whole lot of formation that has to occur. And then they're coming out of what I call an occult hangover. There's going to be a time where they're actually going to still elevate the occult, because in their minds, they're still feeling like they're missing something. So in the process of getting freed of these things, they actually have to go through understanding that what belief systems are and getting clear on what Christianity specifically is. We do this with the Nicene Creed, line by line, and understanding what they believed from before that is antithetical to Christianity. So it's not that you have to be perfectly formed Christians right off the bat, but it helps them understand, okay, well, Jesus is in the process of saving you, so what is it that. That you believe and what is it that maybe you're still having some trouble with? And then we get into their story and what has happened to them. A lot of these people have experienced a tremendous amount of Trauma, and they were seeking some form of control over their lives because they were traumatized in this world. And so there's a process of leading those thoughts and purposes captive to Christ.
[01:00:34] Speaker A: Okay, now, are there instances where you have to call in the priest and exorcist and perform at least some level of exorcisms in these cases?
[01:00:44] Speaker B: I have seen exorcisms. I've been a part of them with a team and worked in deliverance ministry. I tend to be on the side of really walking with people on a spiritual formation standpoint, because this is the way I look at it, or this is the way I've. And I'm pretty firm on my belief on this for what I've seen. When a person is coming out of the occult, they already have magical thinking. They already have this kind of need for that quick fix, easy answer. That's a part of who they are. And so what I see is this danger sometimes of them getting involved in an interest in exorcism or deliverance ministry as a means to basically retain that worldview of. Let me get that. That quick fix, easy answer. But they're really not doing the legitimate work that they need in order to stay to the end and so be saved kind of situation. And so I. I try to, like, push people more toward, like, worldview reformation and spiritual disciplines and formation, because I think that that's really what's going to stand the test of time. And these people are very traumatized. And so unless you really know, like, there's just a lot out there in the world that they need to be sheltered from as they're getting freed. And so I think that there's also that sort of element where when I'm working with people from all over the world, I need to be intentional about, like, getting them into a good community. And if they're, say, in Germany, I've had a, you know, student in Germany, it's hard to figure out where they can go and be safe. Right. And so you get into this whole concept of needing to call the diocesan offices and. And those sorts of things. Things, which is why this, this ministry is so important, because there are people that have needs. But what I've seen across the world is that there's a drastic need to be able to meet that need. I was invited to Rome to do a course on exorcism and deliverance ministry with Roman Catholic priests from all over the world. And I see there is a gap because we need to step in and fill this gap to educate people on these Topics because the clergy are overrun. They're very, very busy and swamped. And so if we can come in and we can equip Catholics to be able to understand the nuances of what draws people into the occult and how Jesus gets them out and how we can advocate for and support them as they're getting out, it's going to drastically alleviate the pressure on the system to be able to resolve this issue and we can start doing it ourselves.
[01:03:03] Speaker A: Yeah, it's a great point. It's not like priests can be trained in everything. They're not trained in new age and occult practices unless they were involved in them themselves. So we really, really need to help them with that. And I like, like, I like your answer to it. And it's just that there's boring work involved, just doing the day to day, you know, just living the, you know, Catholic life, trying to follow Christ and all of us have to do it. And so they, they need to start doing. Don't, don't try to find a quick fix. There's no quick fix for me or for you or anybody. It's like, it's just the boring everyday work of trying to grow in holiness that I think we all need to do. And I think it's true for, for them as well. Now I want to bring up. So you, you wrote a book, Freedom, Freedom from Darkness.
And so that is kind of based upon your experiences in helping people. And so is this, is this a book to that people who are helping others help? Or do you hand this to somebody who's gotten out of the occult or is involved in it, like kind of what was your reasoning behind writing this book based on your experience?
[01:03:59] Speaker B: So it's a twofold mission. And in editing we went back and forth on this and I'm really glad with where we landed. But what we decided to do was my voice is speaking toward a person coming out of the occult. And what this does is it allows a person coming out of the occult to really feel like they're being spoken to and they are seeing, okay, this is how people get involved in the occult. This is how Jesus gets them out. But it's a twofold mission here. Because what I have found, and I've had a lot of really positive feedback on this, is for Catholics or Christians, Catholics or Protestants that want to come in and help people when they read this book, they're able to really submerge themselves in the language and understand how they can understand what a person has gone through, number one, but then also be able to Advocate for them and help them and minister to them.
[01:04:48] Speaker A: Okay, so if, if a Catholic parent, for example, has a. A child that they see dabbling. I'm just going to keep using that word.
You told me not to and I did it. I've done it twice now. Sorry about that.
Okay, so who is getting involved in some way? They think they're dabbling, but we know they're not. We now know they're not in these type of practices. Obviously, I think it sounds like a good thing to do is to start to get the book and read the book, to inform themselves. But what concrete steps then should that parent take? Because, you know, like you said, it can happen overnight. But, you know, if you try and nip it in the bud, like, all of a sudden, maybe you have a high school kid who starts, you know, kind of really into UFO thing. I mean, that's not because it seems like the UFO things one of the more dangerous ones, because it seems so not related to the occult and to demonology and stuff like that. And so, like, what if you just have a kid who's really into like UFO sightings or something like that? Maybe they're just in the science fiction. Maybe it's like, it is somewhat harmless. But, like, where do. Because I also think it seems to be dangerous for a parent to just be like, no, you can never read science fiction. I mean, that seems to also be not the proper reaction. So I'm confused. I'm sure parents are confused. So what should they do?
[01:06:05] Speaker B: Yeah, so. And it's crazy because all it takes is one book. Like, I've heard this story so many times around the world, a person reads one book and then boom, they're tipped into the occult. So, like, using your example for like a teenage boy who's into UFOs, it just takes that wrong book for him to, like, get in touch with. And then he's like, now he's super into the occult. But yeah, no, I think that, that it's important and I'm very passionate about this. It's important for us to teach our kids how to responsibly consume media. We have to set them up for success. If you just are all preventative maintenance, then it's like, you're not. Then they're tipping them into the world on their own, and they're largely having to figure this out on their own. So if we can walk with them through critical thinking in media and teaching them how to identify cultural traps in the subtleties in language, that right there is going to set them up for success, teach them how to recognize the human potential movement, teach them how to recognize witchcraft. So that even from. And I've worked with teenagers that are really good at this. It's. It's so much fun to offer my frameworks to teenagers and see them come back with, oh, I noticed this. Oh, I noticed. It's like you're on it. You've got it. So now you've taught them how to fish. Because here's the thing, and you know this well, as editor in chief of Crisis magazine, words are constantly shifting. Oh, yeah, the, the nomenclature we use, our lexicons are completely shifting all the time. And so when it comes to things like not only the new age and the occult, but really any of these cultural traps, people are always rebranding and creating new words to describe old things. So if we can get down on the base level, which is why I like to define. Right. When we talked about witch witchcraft, we talked about invocation or evocation. So you can, you can teach a teenager to recognize. Okay, are they trying to get you to invoke something? What words did they use? Okay, now you know, that's witchcraft. So now when they go off into the world, they're able to. Even if they're ha. They have some new terms or new concepts thrown at them, they're going to be able to get to the base level of that and discern what it really is.
[01:08:09] Speaker A: Okay, now what happened? What about if you're a parent or relatives like that and somebody's just really into it and you know, it's too. It's kind of too late to keep them out. They're already in it. They're in as deep as you were, maybe. Is there anything that you had people tell you that kind of helped you that. That or did for you that helped you that we could be on the lookout if we know a loved one's really into it right now, they're super into ufology or whatever.
Obviously we want to pray for them and do penance for them, but what else can we do practically for them?
[01:08:40] Speaker B: Yes. So what you're describing is so in the deliverance roadmap that I present in Freedom from Darkness, this would be the stage right before that gig is at moment that might get them out of the occult. They're in what. What I call the shiny veneer. That's when they're in. They're steeped in that occult worldview and they're pretty hard to reach at that point because most of these people think Christians are uninitiated so they're at this point not going to be listening to really anything anyone has to say. So at that point, my advice to parents or loved ones who care is first things first, equip yourself. Reason being, if this person has some sort of worldview destabilizing event that occurs, if you have rapport with them and you haven't been super judgy with them and you're equipped to respond, they might come to you and now you can have a conversation with them. And so there's this like. And I'm not saying that anyone should condone occult practices and be too close up in it if that's going to tempt them or whatever. But I'm just saying that if you can creatively and responsibly create a, and cultivate a relationship with this loved one, and even though it's, if it's at arm distance and all those things because you got to have your boundaries, if you're still loving and compassionate, it can create that pathway. For if that time comes up, you never know, they might ask you a question, they might bring something up in conversation that just allows you really to, to unlock something that's helpful. You can also plant seeds. And I will say that my mother, strong Catholic woman, the whole time that I was in the New age in the occult, she would plant seeds when I would bring up some kind of New age topic and she would say, oh, well, the Catholic Church, they would look at it like this. And she was never judgy, but she would kind of just toss seeds into it. So that whenever the cracks began to show. For me, who was one of the first people that I went to, I went to my mom because she had never passed judgment in a negative way on me. She didn't agree with what I was doing or saying and believing, but she, she, she was still walking alongside me and she wasn't cutting me off. And so I think. And it also, it's going to depend on what you're called to do in that certain circumstance. And I always say that these things are a case by case basis because depending on the situation, the advice is going to be different. So I'm just giving general advice. Yes.
[01:10:52] Speaker A: Yeah, right, exactly. And also we just have to say Catholic moms are the best.
[01:10:58] Speaker B: So true.
[01:10:59] Speaker A: They're great. I mean, because really that is a great thing because like you, you knew your mom was never supportive. Of what? Of these things you were doing. She didn't have to tell you every time I don't support this, honey, you Just, you knew it. And I. Her little things are saying the Catholic. Well, the Catholic Church. I love that. That's a great, great way. You know, she was praying hard too.
[01:11:16] Speaker B: She was Saint Monica.
[01:11:19] Speaker A: Yeah, exactly. And God bless her. God bless her.
Okay, so where can people find out? I mean, obviously the book. I'm going to put a link to the book in the show notes so people can. Can go directly and buy it. But also, like, what. How else can they find out about the work you're doing? And if they have more questions about, like, okay, I know somebody like this and how can they get in contact with you and find out about this stuff?
[01:11:40] Speaker B: Yeah, so the book is a great foundational tool to get started. If you go to my website, spiritsanctified.com it has a lot of resources on there as well. And it's also a blog. So there are people that have gone through getting freed of the Occult, going through my methodology in my classes, and they're now publishing on that blog, sharing their stories and their research as well. And so it's really a hub for people to go if they want to understand certain nuances. We do have articles on Law of Attraction. There's a series on that. There's stuff on human potential movement. So if you're looking for topical stuff, you can go on there. Pretty cool resources. Also some courses and things like that. And so spiritsanctified.com is my central hub. And then I also have a YouTube channel, Tracy and AIs official, but you can find everything through Spirit Sanctified.
[01:12:23] Speaker A: Okay, perfect. I'll make sure I put a link to that as well.
You know, I admit I don't really know much about this topic and that's why I was very interested in talking to you. And it, it sounds insane and crazy in some ways, and it almost sounds unbelievable. Like really people are believing this, but obviously they are, and so we have to recognize that. So I really appreciate you now speaking from your experience and warning the rest of us that this is not. Because I think the main thing a lot of Catholics do is they don't take it that seriously in the sense that it's just like, okay, it's just maybe some psychobabble or some people saying some dumb things. No, this is actually demonic and it needs to be considered as such and all the evils that come with that.
[01:13:03] Speaker B: Well, and the, the thing about this is, because I agree with you, there's a very large mentality that people. Oh, I would never do that. That's super weird. But then that's why I encourage that kind of person definitely to read my book. Book. Because what it does is it lays out the 11 most common cultural traps that I have heard in hundreds of people's stories that preceded them. Getting involved in the new age or the occult. And a lot of. And I talk about the blend, but one of my biggest missions is to combat the blend. There are so many of these ideations that Catholics hold. It's actually staggering. So I. I say that this is a topic that needs to be addressed, because specifically, people think that it's something that they would never touch, but when they get into understanding what these things are, they might go, oh, no, I actually do believe that that's antithetical. Oh, okay. I need. I need to get in. I need to get deeper in this. You know, we need to be able to stand firm not only for ourselves, but because we have a Christian responsibility to be able to raise the next generation properly. And because these things are so subversive and being magnified in culture, it's going to help us to identify what those things are so we can stand against them.
[01:14:09] Speaker A: That's a great point. That's a great point. Because, yeah, I think a lot of people, they have aspects of this movement in their own lives. They don't even realize it. So. Yeah. So I highly recommend the book. And, you know, check out spiritsanctified.com as well. Like I said, I'll put notes to that. So thank you very much, Teresa. I really appreciate. This has been very enlightening to me, and I think it will be for others as well. But I'm glad that you're. You're out there leading the charge against this.
[01:14:34] Speaker B: Well, thank you so much for having me on, Eric. Your questions were very interesting, and this was an awesome conversation. And thank you for your work with Crisis.
[01:14:40] Speaker A: Oh, thanks. I really appreciate that. Okay, everybody, until next time. God love.
Our guest today was deep in the New Age and occult practices, including witchcraft, ufology, altered states of consciousness, and more. How did she find her way back to the Catholic Church?
