The Future of the TLM (Guest: Cameron O'Hearn)

June 21, 2024 01:00:28
The Future of the TLM (Guest: Cameron O'Hearn)
Crisis Point
The Future of the TLM (Guest: Cameron O'Hearn)

Jun 21 2024 | 01:00:28

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Hosted By

Eric Sammons

Show Notes

The director of the highly-acclaimed Mass of the Ages movie trilogy gives his thoughts on the future of his project, as well as the future of the TLM.
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Episode Transcript

[00:00:11] Speaker A: The director of the highly acclaimed mass of the Ages movie trilogy gives his thoughts on the future of the project as well as the future of the traditional latin mass. That's what we'll talk about today on Crisis point. Hello, I'm Eric Sammons, your host editor in chief of Crisis magazine. Before we get started, be sure to hit that like, button. Subscribe to the channel, let other people know about it. Subscribe to our email newsletter, just go to crisismagazine.com, put in your email address, and we'll send you our articles each morning. I think we send them around 09:00 a.m. eastern time. We're not going to spam you don't worry about that. But we will send you our articles so you can check them out from your inbox. Okay, so we have Cameron O'Hearn here today. I believe you've been on the podcast once before, right? [00:00:51] Speaker B: I think one time, yeah. [00:00:53] Speaker A: Yes, early on. So he is, Cameron is the director of the Mass of the Ages movie trilogy. And if you haven't seen it, you're a loser. Correct that quickly and go see it. He's the CEO and creative director of the Mass of the Ages Society. So we're going to, what we're going to see here is that mass of the ages is more than just a movie trilogy, but that's definitely the heart of it. So welcome to the program, Cameron. [00:01:17] Speaker B: Thanks for having me. And thanks. It's been a while, but you're just down the road from me, so maybe we can turn this into a scotch and a cigar sometime. [00:01:26] Speaker A: I know that we're so close and we, I don't think we've ever gotten together, except for the time you interviewed me for that, I think when I. [00:01:33] Speaker B: Was in Cincinnati for the screening at the theater, you were, you were gone. [00:01:37] Speaker A: So I was, you were in Cincinnati for screen. I was out of town, and then you invited me up, which is very nice, to your place for like a little party. And I was like, again, I was out of town, I think, or something like that. And I was just like, I'm really not trying to avoid you, just so. [00:01:51] Speaker B: I've been doing my job right. [00:01:53] Speaker A: You have. [00:01:54] Speaker B: I've been meeting you halfway. You're just cooler and more popular than. [00:01:58] Speaker A: I am, so something like that. I don't think that's true, though. Yeah. So sometime just come down to old St. Mary's sometime and then, then we'll hang out there. So that sounds fun. Yeah. So actually. Okay, I'm just going to invite you live on this podcast, everybody can hear it. We're in Big St. John the Baptist, solemn high mass. And, like, big party afterwards on Monday the 24th for the feast of St. John the Baptist. It's our big party each year, solemn high mass. So just putting it out there. [00:02:30] Speaker B: I wrote it down. There we go. We'll see what happens after this point. [00:02:34] Speaker A: Exactly. So. And I'll update everybody on the podcast next week, whether or not Cameron actually showed up. Put it on you. So. Okay. So why don't you. Because I do think most people know what the master the ageist movie trilogy is, who watches, but I do think there might be some who aren't really familiar with it. So why don't you just give, like, a short kind of origin story of how this came to be and, like, what your original plans were and how it came to be, but also then, if you want to start talking about what it ended up being, because I know it wasn't exactly what you first thought of in the beginning. [00:03:09] Speaker B: So when the Pew study came out that revealed that most Catholics don't believe in the real presence, I saw most commentators. It was. Was that 20 18? [00:03:20] Speaker A: 20 19? [00:03:21] Speaker B: 20 19. So it was before every. Every dad had a webcam and a microphone, and. But every. [00:03:31] Speaker A: I feel pointed out there. [00:03:32] Speaker B: There's other dads with microphones. I mean, that's right. [00:03:36] Speaker A: Exactly. [00:03:36] Speaker B: You know what I mean? There is much less online conservative catholic commentary, I would say. But of those that I heard, they were ignoring the elephant in the room. Why do most Catholics not believe in the real presence? Is because we're not acting like it in our liturgies. And, you know, the. The famous or infamous phrase, lex Orandi, lex Credendi. The law of prayer is the law of belief is a teaching of the church, and it's in the current catechism of the catholic church. So it was odd to me. People weren't talking about the elephant in the room. And so, as a filmmaker, I wanted to introduce the world to a liturgy that I fell in love with, and that, I believe, showcases the belief in the real presence better than any other liturgy I've been at. And that's the traditional roman rite, the. The mass of the ages, the traditional latin mass. What started out as a film, which was funded on Kickstarter, soon ballooned into a trilogy. And one month before we released episode one on YouTube, Pope Francis released traditional custodus, which severely restricted the traditional mass. And we didn't plan that, obviously. I don't have insiders at the Vatican. I was just following what I thought the Lord was leading me to do. And so that got us a lot of attention, a lot of support, and a lot of people with curious ears, like, what are, what are they gonna do? What are they gonna say? And so, like I said, 1ft one film turned into three. And just a little introduction to the trilogy is. Episode one is. Here is the latin mass. It's an introduction to the latin mass. And why it's important, episode two is, how was it taken away after Vatican II? What were all the changes? And then episode three is what is happening today, the restriction of the latin mass, and what are people doing to respond to it all over the world. And we follow a group of mothers who walk from Paris to Rome to deliver letters to Pope Francis, begging him to reverse the decision. So one film turned into three, and now we are at the beginning of what we believe the Lord is calling us to. So the trilogy is just the beginning of what we want to get into. [00:06:04] Speaker A: Yeah. And I think it's interesting because I remember that, I will admit I have some pride in my small part in the. In the origin story of this trilogy, being in, in the Kickstarter video, because I think I was about the only person you could afford to interview and maybe some lady at your parish, too. I think it was. [00:06:21] Speaker B: We were nickel and diming. That was. It was. Yeah. I mean, we interviewed. You were the only expert we interviewed. And you. I think you might have been the first person we interviewed. Does that sound. [00:06:34] Speaker A: I think either I was the first or I think there was that. That great old lady who, like, you know, so it makes vestments or something like that in your parish, or does something like that. You might have interviewed her already. [00:06:45] Speaker B: It was the day before, the day after. But, yeah, you were. You were there at the beginning. You're on the Mount Rushmore of master the ages. [00:06:53] Speaker A: Well, I've told this story before, but I got to tell it again. It just was so funny because you reached out to me and I had no idea who you were. I mean, nobody knew who you were. I mean, just some guy who attends the traditional latin mass and you were kind of like, hey, I'm trying to do this. And it sounded like, I mean, you know, people. You know, people want to do things like this, but they don't have the talent to do it. I mean, so it doesn't matter if it sounds like a good idea, if you know, the talent, it's just not going to come out. So it shouldn't be some cheap, you know, video that nobody watches. And so I was kind of like, well, I don't know, this thing might be kind of lame, but I was like, well, you know, you did have some background in filmmaking. You did try to sell yourself, like, okay, I'm not just a dude who just happens in my iPhone and I'm gonna, like, film this. I actually know what I'm doing on this. And I was like, okay, I might as well. And I tell you what, you had no money. I know, but you showed up and it was very professional. Your team showed up. I was like, okay, these people actually, I mean, that's the moment I knew when you walked in the door, I was like, okay, this actually could be something cool. I didn't had no idea if you'd actually will raise money for it. Like, I knew it'd be cool, but I still at that point thought you might not get any money because what were you asking for at first? Like, wasn't like 60 grand or something? [00:07:54] Speaker B: 7700, 700, you know? Yeah, a little over 70,000. [00:08:03] Speaker A: Right. And then in the initial Kickstarter, wasn't it something like 100 something? How much did you. [00:08:09] Speaker B: We more than doubled our goal, so I think it was like 100, 7170 thousand. [00:08:15] Speaker A: Right. So which allowed you to do so much more than I'm sure you originally, which I, of course, changed your plans because now you could do more with that. [00:08:23] Speaker B: Well, what happened is we filmed so much for what we thought was one film. And then when we put all the pieces together because we wanted to kind of do the film and move on, like, what's one film that can kind of comprise what is the latin mass? You want to talk about what it is, how it's different? What about today? What about the pope? And it was like the three films squeezed into one, and we had an abundance of footage. So it was just a no brainer to turn it into a trilogy. But yeah, it was based, it was built on the support of our backers and we knew that if we leaned into, if we sacrificed a little to, like, get something incredible in front of people, something beautiful, you know, we knew that there was a movement behind it ready to fund something like that. [00:09:18] Speaker A: Yeah. And there was. I mean, it was like, it was almost immediate when you, when you announced it. It was like immediate, like people like, yes, we need this. And it really has turned out even better than I think most people expected. I think, you know, a lot of people, we. The latin mass, of course, despite the restrictions have been placed on it in recent years, has actually grown incredibly over the last few years as far as attendance. And I know a lot of us, I think, rightly credit Covid for a lot of that, because people started, like, they got shut out of their own nova sort of parish, and like, well, the only place that isn't being masked Nazis is the church mass nearby. I guess I'll go there. And then they fell in love with it. They kept going even after the restrictions were lifted. But I do think the mask of the Ages trilogy is a major part of that as well, because it was like, it was an introduction to the traditional at mass in a way that kind of lifted outside the Internet debates, which, whether rightly or wrongly, justly or unjustly trads have a terrible reputation online among kind of regular Catholics. And I don't think that's always fair. I think a lot of times it's very unfair. I think sometimes there's some legitimacy to it as well. But that was kind of the image. And all of a sudden, like, whereas you and I know from actually attending church light mass, most people go, are these salt of the earth beautiful people, you know, raising their kids, you know, just trying to be holy, not even aware of the Internet debates. And that's who, that's the typical person. And I think you tried to highlight that particularly. You did that well in the third episode, I think. But so I really think. And so have you seen, like, like, what's been the response? Like, have you gotten responses of people saying, like, hey, you're the one introduced me to traditional mass. Your movies did. And now I attend it. I love it. It really has, you know. Have you gotten those type of responses? [00:11:10] Speaker B: Yes. And there's a couple people on our team who started attending traditional mass because of our films and then started working with us. And if you just look at through our YouTube comments, you'll see things like, I thought it was this, or I thought it was this weird offshoot thing, or I didn't know it exists. And then they say, but now I'm gonna go, or let me. Let me try it, or let me try it again. So you see, you see comments like that all over. I wouldn't say we are the main reason. Like, I mean, it's not a competition, but I hear a lot of people say, doctor Taylor Marshall was the reason. You know, I sought it out. A lot of people say, yeah, Covid happened. And latin mass was the only place they weren't enforcing crazy communion laws. Right. Or they were at their homes, live streaming, and they, the only live streams that they could see were traditional parishes. And so there's a lot that goes into it. But, yeah, something happens when, like, what we set out to do is to move the needle. Let's get. Let's reach the 98%. And that number comes from, I think, crisis did a study. There was another group that did a study. It said, what percentage of Catholics, and it has to be a round number, but what percentage of mass going Catholics attend the traditional mass? And I think a generous number would be 2%. Maybe it's 3%. I don't know if we're going to increase the number by 100% or whatever it is, but, okay, if 2% are currently attending the traditional mass, then those are the people who are sold. How are we going to sell? And maybe selling is the wrong term, and some people will kind of cringe at that, but how are we going to convince the 98% to start attending the latin mass and we can't have another. What we're doing has worked up to a point, but I think film has a special power, a convincing power behind it, to change minds. To actually change minds, because a film is similar to liturgy. It's analogous to liturgy because you weave together visuals, music, words, story, and these things catch something much bigger than their parts, which is meaning, purpose. And so when you tell a good story, when you create a film, people don't have their defenses up. Now, you can make a film that's very. That starts to attack people immediately, and then their defenses do come up, but largely because it's a beauty. First, universal, uh, format that people have their defenses down. And, you know, I think Peter Crave said once that if you can't break down the castle walls, you can. At least music can get through. You know, music can. Can get through these castle walls. So, yeah, we did see that. We do believe that film is an untapped medium for propelling the traditional movement forward. And no matter what comes out of Rome, we cannot forget our heritage, our story, and what traditional Catholicism is. [00:14:44] Speaker A: Right. We're gonna talk here in a minute about what might be coming out of Rome, but let's focus on some more positive things first. I was just talking to somebody the other day about this, that I know some people, some traditional Catholics, they want to, you know, their ideal is that, like, Rome just says, okay, sure, slant mass is the Roman right now, and we just abolished Novus Ordo. But I think we all know that's. That's just not happening anytime, anytime soon. I thought Pope Benedict, what he did in some more pontificum was brilliant in the prudentially, in that what he said was, basically, we're just gonna let both. Both. He call him forms. I do think that was a little bit forced, the whole form thing and stuff like that. But needless to say, it was a weird situation that, you know, he had inherited. He can't really, you know, so he just tried to give it a name. But it is somewhat. I know this sounds a little bit crass. It's kind of like a free market. Like, okay, we're going to let both of them be free to do, you know, and just see what happens then and let them inform each other. I think we all know which way they mostly inform which direction, but, like. But regardless, you just let them both kind of grow and see what happens. I also think it turns down the temperature a lot in the division within the church, because it's more like. Because, I mean, you see this a lot now where people who attend no sort of Catholic, no sort of mass, they really do attack trads more than they did just a few years ago because they think we're schismatic or hate the pope or whatever, because we attend this mass, whereas, like, you know, under Pope Benedict, nobody would have said that. And so I really feel like that was a beautiful thing. And I. And I feel like, though, the mass, the ages trilogy, is a perfect example of how you. You live under that, because I know, of course, you. You started the trilogy under Samara Pontificum's reign, so to speak, because, okay, we're just going to. We're going to put out there, listen, this is what we love about the latin mass. We're also going to let people know the history and then just kind of say and leave it at that. Because, of course, when you started it, there was no traditionalist custodus to respond to. So I really felt like that was a, you know, that kind of part of sumorum pontificum thing. Now, one of the things I wanted to ask you was about the trilogy is the first one. The first episode is basically just. It's beautiful because it's just like, here's why we love the traditional latin mass. We're not going to say anything negative about anybody else. We're not going to give you history lessons. We're just going to say, listen, this is why we love it. And in fact, I was telling you beforehand, I'm debating which one of the three is my favorite, but the first one definitely has a special place. The second one, though, and I know you got some criticism for this, you did go it took a more critical route. And I know a number of people who attend those sort of mass regularly. They were a bit more offended. I don't know if that's the right word, but. So why did you kind of go a little bit? I mean, I didn't think it was that hardcore, but you definitely went a little bit more direct, a little bit more combative in that second episode. Why did you decide, you know, kind of go that route? [00:17:59] Speaker B: That's a great, great question. There's. There's many reasons. So I don't know if I'm going to say three words or 3000 words to this answer, but as Catholics, we need to hold things in tension. Like a sign of a stupid person is they can't think with nuance. They can't think critically below a catchphrase. And so the catchphrase being the new mass is the mass of Vatican II. And they can't, like, as soon as you start to, you know, point out deficiencies at the new mass, they think you're attacking Vatican II. And so what we wanted to do is hold two things in tension. That the traditional latin mass is amazing and beautiful and good, and we embrace Vatican II, the teachings of it. I don't know how you can get around that. And the church based, the church who said, we're making a mass of Vatican II went off the rails and you should obey the legitimate authority above you. So this is like the trilogy. Just like, to be Catholic is to be like a both and, you know, all the way, all the way through with faith in works with, you know, divine and human natures of Christ and, and for us, like, I'm not explaining myself well, but let me, let me just say this, that the second episode had to get across the point that the church made a fatal mistake. And as long as people got that conclusion, then we did our job with episode two so we didn't have to get into state of accountism or, you know, or the reform of the reform. Like, what is the future of the, of the mass look like? We just had to say, here's what Vatican II said. Here's what the church did. They're not the same. The church made a mistake and then we have to wrestle with that as Catholics. So we wanted to simultaneously not take cheap shots but also not pull our punches because a lot of media was, I think, pulling punches. Like when you look at the more conservative types, kind of the middle ground. Some people call them pope splanners. They just pull punches. They don't say it like it is but then if you're not thinking with nuance, you don't. You don't run to these conclusions like, Pope Francis is not the pope or whatever it is, or Vatican II is heretical, or whatever that is. So, yeah, we wanted to just state as strongly as we could, the church made a mistake. And that's what, that was, like, the core of episode two. When people see that animation, they can see, okay, that was a mistake. And even I've talked to a lot of people who attend Novus Ordo mass, and they're like, it's usually the men. They're like, I really liked that part. Or, like, I. The part with the music comparisons. Yeah, you know, I cringe in my pew, you know, that kind of thing. So I think the trilogy is good because the trilogy is a whole, and you need to. You need to have the meaning of episode one and two and three kind of held together. And so in that sense, it's an art piece that. That prompts discussions like this. [00:21:42] Speaker A: Yeah, it's a. It's a difficult topic because, like, I just saw literally on Twitter yesterday, people talking about, like, you know, it's the mass of Vatican II. How can you reject it? Yeah, rejecting Vatican II, and it's like, it. I understand it's been associated with Vatican II and it. Because of Vatican II. That's why they. That's what. That's kind of the proximate cause of it being changed. But there's no question. And if you watch episode two, it makes it blindly obvious that it got derailed regardless of why or how or who. It clearly wasn't what the council fathers were asking for. I mean, I don't know any serious theologian, scholar who would say that what ended up being Novus ordinary is what the council fathers were advocating for at the council itself. And just a reminder for Catholics who might be scandalized with this talk of mistakes and stuff like that. There's no catholic teaching that the church can't make. You know, church officials probably more accurate to say, can't make mistakes when they're. When they're doing things like this. I mean, ecumenical council cannot declare something infallibly true. That's not true. But, you know, the committee of the Vatican can make mistakes and prudential mistakes and things like that because you never, you know, you never claim no sort of invalid or anything like that. It just simply. It's got issues. [00:23:04] Speaker B: And I think because otherwise, we'd have to be, in some sense, double minded and dishonest. Because if Vatican II says Latin is to be retained. Gregorian Chan is pride of place. And then the new mass says, in the promulgation of the new mass, that the vernacular will be the principal language of the liturgy, and we will lose a lot of the gregorian chants. This is Paul Vi's address. Those two things, they can't both be right. Either you hold the ecumenical council or you hold that the mass is not a mistake. [00:23:42] Speaker A: And that's absolutely right. I mean, that's the thing that frustrates me so much. Particularly, like, what, you know, we kind of call the pope's planners, but the kind of conservative defenders is that this idea that you're just taking two things that are literally contradictory in saying they both. They're both true. It's just not. I mean, that's the first law. You know, the law, non contradiction. So it just can't be. I also think. I think your point is very right about, like, having a nuanced discussion and, like, there's stupidity on all sides, I guess. [00:24:12] Speaker B: Yeah. Right. [00:24:13] Speaker A: Like, a good example is just on Twitter this week. I don't know why I'm bringing up Twitter, but just. It's. [00:24:18] Speaker B: It's all you gotta get off Twitter. [00:24:21] Speaker A: Yeah, I know. Um, I'm off Twitter. I'm on x now. Yeah, no, I had some. Some tweet about, like, the rumors we're gonna talk about here in a minute about the tourist not mass being completely canceled, and father Dwight Longenecker, whom I like very much, and he's scheduled to be on the podcast pretty soon, he said something effective. Traditionally mine Catholics, should, it happens, go to nova sorto, and, like, you know, embrace it being more traditional with, like, Latin and. And the rubrics, investments, and music, stuff like that. And, like, obviously, I disagree with him on that, and I think there's. I think it shows a misunderstanding, kind of our. Kind of what we believe in our position. But I saw a lot of people who respond to him were just saying, well, no, sort of heretical. And they just, like. It's like, guys, you're not helping anybody because you're, like. They're just as much. Unable to. [00:25:16] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:25:17] Speaker A: Except that tension as the post planners are not. I'm not saying Father Longneck, by the way, is a post laner. He's not. But, like, the people who would kind of say there's nothing wrong and it's all fine are. And the people say it's just completely heretical. [00:25:29] Speaker B: Yeah. What. What do you mean by heretical? What do you mean by the novus ordo? Are you, like. What exactly there's no question if you. [00:25:36] Speaker A: Say the nova sort in my. I think if you say no sort is invalid, you have literally undermined the indefectibility of the church, because whether you like it or not, the Catholic Church promulgated this as the primary liturgy for everybody in the roman right to celebrate. So if it's invalid, then the gates of hell prevailed over the church. I mean, just period, end of story. And so, yeah, so I thought episode two was very good. And that's what I recommend to people when they say something to the effect of, it's the mass of Vatican two, or you're rejecting Vatican two. It's like, no, we're kind of rejecting the prudence of a committee that formed after Vatican two. [00:26:16] Speaker B: Yeah. What would lead someone like Lefebvre to sign the document on the liturgy? Sacrosancta concilium. It's because if you read it without preconceived, you know, plans for how you're going to. Yeah. Without knowing the future and without a plan to, you know, what's the. The image of the camel with a nose under the tent, like, do much more than the words. Words say, then it's reasonable that when you read sarcosanto concilium, it sounds like the traditional mass is more in line with sacrosanct concilium than what you find at your local parish. [00:26:58] Speaker A: Right. [00:26:58] Speaker B: And so that's why we experience this injustice like. And that's why we need to change the perception that, no, the church made a crucial mistake. And in the grand history of the church, these mistakes last years, decades, maybe centuries, probably not centuries, but in due time, the church will correct this mistake and it was a disciplinary mistake. You're right to say it's not a mistake. On teaching faith and morals, I think. [00:27:33] Speaker A: Most of the council fathers probably would have. If you asked them, what will the mass look like in ten years after sacrosanct concilium was doing? I think they would guess it would be very, very, very much like the mass they were celebrating at the time, 1962 missile with a decent amount more vernacular and maybe a few other changes at the margins. That's. I mean, I could see them thinking, oh, yeah, we'll do the readings in English or the vernacular, whatever the case may be. You know, maybe we'll do a few other things in the vernacular and maybe we'll introduce a few other changes here and there on the margins. But the idea that you're going to have a completely, radically new calendar, completely, radically new lectionary, a completely radically new prayers, I mean, literally, you're going to change the prayers fundamentally. And that's like, the best. And the worst part of episode two is the scene where you're pulling out all the prayers. I mean, I say it's the best because it shows it so clearly, but it's the worst because of what it actually reflects, what actually happened. [00:28:32] Speaker B: It's hard to. It's hard to explain everything that they changed. Like, if I started explaining it, we could list off a bunch of things they changed, and we'd miss a good number of things they changed. It's easier to say what they didn't change. [00:28:48] Speaker A: Right. [00:28:48] Speaker B: You know, it's very few things, and. [00:28:50] Speaker A: It'S amazing to me. I mean, it's not. I see it all the time, but I think people who tend traditional latin mass need to always remember this. I would argue the vast majority of regular Catholics who attend the regular diocesan novus ordo mass, they believe the latin mass is just the same. The traditional mass is simply the mass they go to. But in Latin, like, and maybe some more smells and bells. [00:29:15] Speaker B: Yes. [00:29:16] Speaker A: They really, I mean, people to this day still think that's the case. Like, the prayers are the same, the, the. Everything else is everything about the same, except for a little bit more elaborate and in Latin. And, I mean, you still hear people today think that the reason we go, the people like us go to the latin mass is because it's in Latin. Like, that's, like, that's the selling point, is the Latin. As if, I mean, I'm, like the least latin scholar on earth. I can barely even, like, I barely even know English. I'm not going to like another language. I'm not going to embrace that much. So I just think that the movies definitely, especially episode two, kind of show that very well. Um, now, about the trilogy. Okay, I gotta ask you, though, now that you finished all three of them, which of the three episodes is your favorite? [00:30:00] Speaker B: Episode three is my favorite. Yeah, I think, um, I mean, it's the most personal to me because it deals with today and what are we to do? And, you know, a lot of people look to our films to say, say this or say that or don't say this. You know, what should we do next? And episode three was the most coherent from, from script to screen. Like, we. The way it was written, the way it was edited, the way it was produced at the end, it was, it was just what it was supposed to be like. I feel like we were just, every step we took, we were just giving it to the Lord, saying, I think you want us to say this? And then we would test it. We would discern through it. We have advisors, and it is a really long, painful process. Maybe I love it more because it's the most painful. But I also think the message of hope is what especially traditional Catholics need today. You know, the film has two audiences in mind. It has those, you know, bishops and laity who have a certain perception of the latin mass community, and then it introduces to them traditional Catholics who surprise them, particularly the mothers. And maybe, you know, certain bishops will see this and. And want to protect the traditional mass. But the other audience it has in mind is the. Is the trads, the traditional Catholics. And a lot of. I would say a lot. I wasn't the majority, but there was people who wanted us to basically give a roadmap, a plan. Like, you know, if your bishop does this, do that, if the mass, like, here's how you can still preserve the mass. And I don't know. I don't have all the answers. Like, we're in a confusing time in the church's history. Were in between the church making strong statements about church, about the pope's authority in Vatican I, and this middle ground of, like, well, what if he uses his authority to almost completely abolish the traditional right of the church, which is a large discipline of the church and has doctrinal elements to it. What if then. Well, the church doesn't answer questions until the questions are asked. So we're asking the questions, and we're in a tough time as Catholics, and especially traditional Catholics. So episode three needed to land the plane, and I think the only way you can land the plane is by, you know, looking up and saying, God knows what he's about. And all we. All we can say to do is to suffer. Well, don't. Don't lose hope. Don't give up. Like, you know, stay close to Jesus. The spiritual life is very simple, even if it's not easy. [00:33:06] Speaker A: Right. I told you before we went on that. I'm embarrassed to admit that I didn't actually watch episode three until this week, just for various reasons. And I do think it's probably my favorite as well. I mean, it just. It's very powerful. It is. It's very sad. I mean, I know I'm not saying it's not filled with hope, but it can be filled with hope and also be sad at the same time. [00:33:29] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:33:31] Speaker A: The scene where the mother speaks to the pope, I just think was tragic because we know what he's actually doing, what he, you know, is still doing. And when you see the beauty of this, I mean, my wife hasn't watched it yet. And I was telling her about it and I just said, this beautiful woman, she's probably went to her sixties, maybe seventies walks. What is it? I mean, I don't know how far it is. Like a thousand miles. I mean, some crazy amount of miles. [00:34:01] Speaker B: 800 miles. [00:34:02] Speaker A: 800 miles. Yeah. So on pilgrimage, she gets in on with the pope. She, like a good child speaking to her father. She respectfully and lovingly tells her concerns to her dad, you know, her Holy Father. And I. You don't. It's not said in the movie and it's not even suggested. But I just, I did see that and think, like, the father's turning her away and, like, just not really listening to her concerns. This, this wonderful young woman who is, who, I'm sorry, wonderful older woman who has produced, I mean, one of her children's, one of her sons is a priest. I mean, it's, in the Catholic Church, we've always revered mothers of priests. There's just something about it. I was even thinking during the movie, I'm like, why don't we think that about dads of priests? I mean, dads of priests were kind of like, yeah, that's great. But mothers of priests have a special place in catholic kind of ethos. We look to them as, okay, you gave one of your sons, you know, this child you raised, you gave them to the church as, and you're, and, like, as I think one of the priests says, like, they're our grandmothers because, you know, the priests are fathers and this is their mother. So they're our grandmother. And so, like, the whole family aspect. But, yeah, so I really did, I thought episode three was very well done, and I thought you did a great job of, like, interacting the experts with, like, the stories and everything, you know, Mike, Mike Cirilla did great. I was glad to see him featured. I'm good friends with Mike. And so that, that was very good. And Joseph Shaw had a great line. I won't say it exactly, and I definitely won't say in his awesome accent, but, you know, the thing about, like, oh, they're shutting it down because of the toxic trads or something like that. And he said something the effect of like, yeah, we got our oddballs here, but aren't we supposed to welcome everybody? I mean, that's kind of what you're saying we're supposed to do. Well, we welcome the oddballs, too, and sometimes they misbehave. But what are we supposed to do, kick them out? I thought the whole thing is we welcome everybody. [00:36:06] Speaker B: Yeah. And you find oddballs in any trick perish. [00:36:10] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:36:12] Speaker B: One of the most powerful moments for me. I mean, this is a story that's unfolding as we're capturing it, was to hear Diane, the. The main mother in the story, say that, even though. So anyone who knows the history, you know, she appeals Pope Francis. And then there's this rescript that further restricts the latin mass. So it's like, not only was it a nothing burger, but it was worse. Like, things got worse after you sacrificed that much. And she still says it was worth it. And that's. That can only be borne out of hope. It can only, like, we have projects and plans, and we want to do great things for the church, and we don't know what's going to come out of Rome, and our plans fail and our projects fall apart. And it's good to be catholic, because when you're catholic, you have something to do with suffering. Like Christ says, pick up your cross and follow me. We are disciples of him, and the cross is the closest thing to us because it's our suffering. And the Catholic Church says you can do something with that. If the world is falling apart all the way to the top, all the way to Rome, you can start to put it back together. And it's not with a podcast, as great as podcasts are, it's with what we do with our suffering and what we do with our prayers. [00:37:47] Speaker A: Yeah, it's. I kind of think of it, and I know it's not really this, but I think it was, like, the bishop Schneider option, because he. He has been hammering home that Bishop Athanasius Schneider, who's in the episode as well. He's been hammering that home for years now that the proper response to all the craziness coming out of Rome and church officials is ultimately suffering. And that's not. Some people think it says like this. That's not like the abusive kid just allowing the abuse and doing nothing. He's not saying that whatsoever, and we're not saying that whatsoever. It is, though, having the proper response to it and knowing what you can do and what you can't do. [00:38:27] Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. [00:38:28] Speaker A: You know, it's like, the fact is, I can't change what under my power. I cannot have one iota of impact on Pope Francis. And we saw this woman, Diane, she didn't have, really an impact on him, and she did this great thing. I have to say also, you can't help but think of this christ saying, you know, what child asked for father for bread? A piece of bread gets a snake. I mean, that's kind of what I felt like. That is what actually happened. But. But the fact that she accepted it as. And I think our lord sees that, and there is no way you could ever convince me that our lord won't have a response to that. It may happen in her lifetime. It may not happen even in our lifetime. But I guarantee, I believe 100% the Lord will respond to that. He will reward that faithfulness in. In some way. And we don't know how. We don't know when, but we know it will happen. [00:39:18] Speaker B: That's the other thing. Like, what. What do we want out of all this? And, like, yeah, I want the traditional mass. Obviously, it better forms my children in their faith. It better captures the doctrines I'm trying to teach at home. But I think also, I just want to avoid suffering. Like, I don't want the latin mass to be taken away because I don't want to suffer. But, like, when suffering is. Is kind of hoisted upon us, praise the Lord. Because I just want to be more in him and in his sacred heart. And suffering, a broken heart is an open heart. So, do we want to get to the end of our lives and say, it was pretty cozy, you know, we had this liturgy, and I felt like I could pray well and this and that. It's like, I think sometimes the Lord is asking us to pray even more and suffer even more, have a heart that's even more open. And I want to get to the end of my life and say, I took up my cross and followed you even when it was hard. And, like, to. What you said, we should do everything we can, but there's things we can't do because we're laity and there's a whole discussion of obedience and, like, there's certain things I can't do, but what I can do is suffer well, right? And he gives us grace for it. [00:40:46] Speaker A: And also, I just want to note that Bishop Schneider, the reason so powerful from him is he literally grew up without the sacraments easily accessible to him. I mean, he grew up under Soviet Union rule, under a soviet satellite, and I think a priest would show up maybe once a year. And so, like, this isn't somebody who grew up in a cozy suburban american, you know, perish, get in the sacraments, and whenever he wanted it. No, this is somebody who literally grew up. His mom raised him without. Again, a mom of a priest grew up. You know, all this raised him without access to the direct access to the sacraments. And so it just really showed the suffering she endured. Did have fruit. I mean, it's grapefruit. Now I want to bring up. So, and we've kind of talked around it. But the funny thing, we scheduled this interview a long time ago. We actually was supposed to be last week, but then, since then, just this week, big rumor come out from Marathe celli, which has done a pretty good job with rumors in the past being accurate. And they're not about a thousand, but nobody does. But they're pretty, I mean, of anybody, they're probably the best as far as, like, when they say something, rumor, it often is true, might be different timeframes or whatever, but that there is a kind of final solution for the traditional mass. It's gonna be shut down completely. Then I noticed it kind of morphed into, it's gonna happen on July 16. And I think that was just kind of, because that's the anniversary of tradition. I think that was kind of more just people getting excited. But, but I mean, what, what was your reaction when you first saw that rumor that there could be a complete clamp down where the traditional mass is basically banned? [00:42:28] Speaker B: Yeah, I was, I was surprised and then afraid, and then not afraid. Like, well, you know, this sounds very trite, I think, to some people, but, like, the king is on an unshakable throne, and so whatever avenues, whatever detours I need to take to get to that kingdom, it's like, well, no matter what happens, like, that is the destiny of the christian is to serve Jesus, the king, at his throne, which is in heaven and is unshakable. But I'm afraid as well, because this means a greater effort is required on our part to form the faith of our families if the traditions are restricted. So I don't make light of the devastation that's caused by restricting these liturgies and letting profanations and sacrileges and irreverences happen in other liturgies and letting those run rampant. So I don't make light of that. And then I read the interview with Andrea Grillo, and it was, it was shocking. Like this. So this is the, this is like the Grima wormtongue to the king Theoden. So. Yes. Good analogy. Yeah. So the guy who's in the shadows with the long hair, who's whispering into King Theoden's ear, and he twists, he just twists words that, okay, if he's saying certain words to King Theoden, he's going to be able to move his heart, to make actions, but at the same time, King Theoden is impotent. He's like a shadow of his former self, and he listens to this whispering ear. And it's a good analogy, because the words of Andrea Grio, and this was in episode three, made themselves into tradition as custodus. Like, this talk of a unique expression of the roman rite. It's. It's founded nowhere that we can see except in the writings of Andrea Griot. And then the way he's talking in this interview just tells me that he's. He's twisting words to his purposes, and maybe he 100% believes them and maybe he has good intentions, but he. He looks at traditions in the church and calls them just old things or, like, things of nostalgia. But then he talks about things like tradition as custodus, as tradition. So it's interesting how, like, it's such a forceful interview. Like, he. He's, like, winning the argument through force and emotion instead of nuance and. And history. So, yeah, I. But at the end of the day, I don't find a lot of value in, like, I think it's good to discuss. Discuss it as we're doing now, but to spend our energies on it. Like, if this ruins your day or your week, or you, like, aren't able to focus on your children or the vocation you've been called to or your job, I just ignore it. The faith hasn't changed. There might be more sufferings to come, but the faith hasn't changed. [00:46:17] Speaker A: And I think that's great advice. I know, like, you as a father, like, the first place your brain goes when you hear something like this is, how will this affect my kids? Yes, because we know how. How central the latin mass. And for people don't attend the latin mass. I get that you don't get this, but just trust us on this. It's more than just the liturgy. It's the whole ethos surrounding it is a fundamental part of how we raise our children. And so it's very. It's more than just, oh, I happen to this liturgy around that liturgy. No, it's a whole way of living. The catholic faith, which I believe is the traditional, like, the way it should have always been, has always been lived, and should continue to be lived. But that's a first. And that you cannot hear that and not immediately think that your kids and think, okay, that's. That's what. And I think that's what you get afraid of, but also get angry about. It's not it's not me I'm angry about, for, it's them that I know is this was taken away from so many people back in the seventies, and so I don't want that happening to my own kids. That all being said, I'm completely with you in that. I remember hearing it's a stupid cliche, but it stuck with me for some reason, I think, because I can get anxious at times, and that is, you know, worry is praying for what you don't want, and that's. [00:47:40] Speaker B: That's good. I haven't heard that. [00:47:41] Speaker A: Yeah. And I heard that one time, I was like, that's it. Because when you're sitting there worrying about something, you're basically thinking about, like, this thing you don't want, and you're kind of, like, praying about it almost. And so to me, it's like you don't know what it's going to. What's going to happen. Like, the rumor might be 100% accurate. You still do not know what that means, in actual fact, of how will your bishop react? How will your pastor react? What will be the situation on the ground? And so trying to. I get the whole idea of, like, you prep for certain things, you know, and all that, but, like, in this situation, you should just go to mass, continue, go your parish. And if one Sunday the pastor announces, I'm sorry, but we're shutting this down, then you say, okay, what are my options? And this is happening, friends of ours, as you know, because it's happened at various parishes in America, you say, okay, what are my options? I can continue, go to this parish, and I'm going to, you know, go to the novice ordo, because it's a very reverent whatever. Oh, no, there's a. There's a fraternity parish, and the fraternity hasn't been shut down. It's an hour away. But I'm going to go to that because we don't know, again, will the eclasidae communities get shut down or not? All this is just, like, speculation, so you can't really, because people ask me this all the time, what are you going to do if. And I just said, I don't know. I just know I'm going to. For when I'll decide. When I decide now, I will. This is a big thing that I've come to believe strongly, and that is that as Catholics, we are supposed to be obedient to our legitimate superiors when they are our spiritual fathers. And, you know, I've had Doctor Kwasneski on a lot about this, so I'm not saying this is not blind, absolute obedience, but if your pastor has been a faithful pastor who has been your spiritual father and has done, you know, done his duties, because I can say that about my pastor, that during COVID he made sure that he continued to do what he had to do to spiritually meet our spiritual needs. And after that, I know his top priority is our spiritual needs. If that's the case, I feel like a Catholic should really look to their pastor. And I'm not saying they have to necessarily stay in their parish or do exactly the pastor says, but I do think that should be a major factor in their decision. What does your pastor do? And if your pastor says, okay, I'm doing x, I think that should be. Unless you have really strong reasons otherwise, I think you should kind of should go along with x if that pastor's been somebody who has been, you know, proven to you, because as laypeople, we're not supposed to make all these stupid decisions. And so I just feel like that's a major factor, too. So I'm with you on, like, you know, let's not allow to defeat, you know, overcome our peace right now. Let's just kind of wait and see. Pray about it, obviously do penance now that it wouldn't happen. I mean, even if what rotate celli is reporting is true, that doesn't mean that through prayer and penance it couldn't fall apart. I mean, the Lord could make it not happen. Even if they're. [00:50:58] Speaker B: They think that's the thing. That's the thing I've been thinking and praying about is I think God is too small in too many minds. Like, who is God? He is the Lord of all history. Is God afraid? Is he worried about what might happen? No. He knows everything is going to happen. He knows the hair is on your head. And so, yes, I believe. I believe this. This could end tomorrow. I do believe Pope Francis could have a vision of our lady and correct this. This wild course that he's on. It's. It's not naive to believe that it's just catholic sensibility. And it's believing that God can do anything. We've seen in history, God using miracles to achieve his purposes. And it comes, surprisingly, through a trust in Providence and even obedience to a certain degree. So I don't want to. I'm not an expert, and I. I don't have the answers, and I definitely don't want to say when to obey or when to disobey because I thought this is way beyond my pay grade but I just see stories like St. Juan Diego, who has our lady appear to him, go tell the bishop I want something built here, a shrine built here, a chapel. And he goes to the bishop and says, the mother of God told me to build a chapel here. He says no. Now what is he to do? Our lady spoke to him. It truly did. So doesn't he have the right to build that chapel? You know, no. He goes back to our lady and says, the bishop said no. And he tries a second time and the bishop says no again, and he comes to our Lady a third time and she gives. Tells him to pick these flowers, and then he presents a third time, like the persistence, the trust in Providence, that when you believe God knows what he's about. He knows the difficulties in the church, he knows how crazy it is, how bishops are in it for the money and the prestige or whatever, how the. Some of them, a lot of them, I don't know, are evil. He knows it all, but he can do anything. And what do we see? We see a miracle take place and we see the conversion of the heart of a bishop and our lady of Guadalupe. Boom. Converts a nation. [00:53:37] Speaker A: Right? Yeah, I think that's a great perspective to have that. When he. When Juan Diego went to bishop, bishop said no. He had every right to bash that bishop. He had every right, on some human level to bash the bishop, to say, oh, yeah, this guy, he, you know, he is a. He's a professional Catholic or whatever you want, you know, call him something, you know, he's a modernist, but no, he was like, no, I'm just going to go back to middle age. Say, listen, you know, that advice you gave, it didn't work out. What do you got for me now? And. And so. And I think that's what we have to do, just go back to God. Because I. One thing we know for sure, I guarantee each of us will be given the graces we need to be saved. Yes, so will our kids and so will our kids and, yes. [00:54:21] Speaker B: That is such a big. That's such a big point. Yep. Guarantee. [00:54:25] Speaker A: There's no guarantee that we'll have mass. Mass available to us, any mass. I'm not even saying, like, latin mass, whatever. There's no guarantee of that. There's no guarantee. [00:54:33] Speaker B: Absolutely. [00:54:34] Speaker A: We'll have a priest available to us for confession before we die or anything like that, but we are guaranteed we will have the graces available to us on some, you know, however God makes it so we can be safe. [00:54:43] Speaker B: That's the point. That's it. That's great. [00:54:46] Speaker A: Yeah. So I will wrap it up with this now. I wonder what the plans are for the mass of the age of society. Obviously, they might change because of, you know, things going on, but what is kind of the vision over the next few years, because obviously you're finished with the trilogy, but you're not finished with the mass of the ages society. [00:55:04] Speaker B: Yeah. So it was. It was good to make these films and introduce millions to traditional Catholicism, particularly in the latin mass. And we want to continue to do that. Films have a power to bring a new audience, you know, into a movement. So we want to continue making films to, you know, capture the imagination, people, and spread this movement as far as it can go. But what we noticed was there was a lot of comments, probably hundreds of comments saying, this is beautiful. I'd love to go. I cannot, because it's nowhere around me. It's not even in my country. And so we've heard of a crisis of priests. Well, that crisis is exponentially increased when you look at the crisis of latin mass priests, there's not enough latin masses around. Now, obviously, we can't control what the church hierarchy does, but what we can do is provide training for priests to learn the traditional mass. So we've put together the easiest, step by step, most beautiful training on the traditional mass. You can actually find it right now. If you go to latinmass.com priests, plural, you'll be taken right to our training. And it's. We're building this online latin mass university because there's nothing, no matter what comes out of Rome, there's literally nothing that can stop a priest from learning something. And what we want to do is if there's 1700 priests, latin mass priests worldwide, that's our estimate. We want 1700 more to be trained and waiting in the wings for the inevitable day when a future pope reverses the decisions as easily as they were implemented. So imagine the day where we have twice as many or ten times as many latin mass priests all over the world. As soon as that document is signed or their bishops allow it or whatever it is, you know, right now, there's nothing canonically against a priest celebrating the traditional mass without a congregation and with his friends and family. You know, it's. It's not a public mass. And that's what TC restricted was public celebrations. So we want to train more priests. We want to provide server training, choir training, and then build the best traditional resources. Basically, we want to introduce millions to traditional Catholicism with the power of new media, which is, which is an effective tool for doing that. [00:57:52] Speaker A: Yeah, it's great. I encourage everybody. I'll put links to the website, you know, the Massey Edges website, but also to each of the three movies. They're all on YouTube. They're all for free. You can, you can watch each one of them. And I encourage anybody who has not watched them to watch them. They're both about all three, about an hour and a half or so long, you know, so just sit down, put it up on your tv and watch it. And I think you really enjoy it, especially if you're not familiar with the latin mass. And I think the training for priests is great. Like you said, just let's get ready for when. I do think it's inevitable that the, that these restrictions will be eventually taken away. And so let's be ready for that. Let's not all of a scramble and define priests. It's kind of what happened after Simone Pontificum is when that happened. All of a sudden it's like, oh, we don't actually have the priests, enough priests. We need to do this. And some priests like, I got to learn this. So I think it's great. [00:58:41] Speaker B: Another point is, without advertising it too much, we already have 200 novus ordo priests in our training. [00:58:49] Speaker A: That's great. [00:58:50] Speaker B: Taking our training. So we're on track to do just that. [00:58:54] Speaker A: And many priests have said that celebrating this mass, this liturgy, really did deepen their appreciation of their priesthood and the liturgy in general. And so, like you said, they can still, they can, they can learn it and celebrate it privately. And from what we've heard, it really does kind of supercharge their priesthood, even if they're in a situation where they have to celebrate the nova sort of publicly every time and that's required and whatever. Celebrating it privately can really still be a great benefit to them. And I think then benefit to their flock as well because it will help their priesthood, which will then kind of flow out to their, their, to their flock, so. Well, great. Cameron, I really appreciate this has been great. You know, keep your head up like you are. Keep, keep doing what you're doing. And I never ask you, what are you going to do if they shut down your parish? Aren't you happy? I didn't actually ask you that. [00:59:50] Speaker B: I'll be knocking on your door and asking, what are you doing? [00:59:53] Speaker A: Yeah, right. [00:59:53] Speaker B: Exactly. [00:59:54] Speaker A: That's right. We'll just kind of, we'll have a beer together and just talk about, like, you know, so what are we actually going to do now? [01:00:00] Speaker B: Yeah, that's a great next step, Dev, I'll see you on July 17. [01:00:05] Speaker A: That's right. That's our plan. Okay. Thanks, Cameron. I really appreciate it. Thank you. Until next time. Bye. God, love.

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