Mary as “Co-Redemptrix” Inappropriate?

[00:00:00] Foreign. [00:00:12] The Vatican has declared it is not appropriate to give Mary the often used title. Co Redemptrix. We're going to break down the reasons why they say this and what it all means. Hello, Eric Sammons, your host, editor, chief of Crisis magazine. Welcome welcome to program. Before we get started, let's go ahead and smash that like button like Mary smashed the head of the serpent. [00:00:36] Also, you can subscribe to our. [00:00:39] Subscribe to our channel as well. Click the subscribe button. Don't click the Notify button bell, because that's dumb. That's your phone, your device telling you what to do. Just click subscribe and you're smart enough to go into YouTube and see when a new something new comes up in this channel. So, so smash the like button. Hit the subscribe button. Don't hit the notify bell. Also, subscribe to our email newsletters. Go to crisis magazine.com, put your email address and we'll send you our articles each morning. [00:01:07] About two a day, usually every day. Follow us on social media is mag. [00:01:12] Okay, so let's go on this. So the, the Vatican dropped a, a new document, specifically the, the Castorie for the Doctrine of the Faith. The former cdf, which Cardinal Ratzinger used to be in charge of, but now Cardinal Fernandez is, is part of, is is in charge of. They dropped a new document this morning. I told my wife, I'm like, I really do like it when the Vatican works this out. So I have content for my podcast, my live podcast on Tuesday afternoons. [00:01:39] And so I, I'm thankful. Thank you, Vatican. Thank you, Cardinal Fernandez, for, for your timing. So, okay, so why did they do this? Why did they drop this? Just like I'm going to use their words to explain why this document was written. It says the present note responds to numerous requests and proposals that have reached the Holy See in recent decades and particularly this dicastery regarding questions pertaining to Marian devotion, certain Marian titles. Okay, let me give the real context here. What we're talking about is in Catholic theology, there are four Marian dogmas. Four Marian dogmas which are Mary is the Mother of God, that theotokos the Perpetual Virginity of Mary, the Immaculate Conception of Mary and the Assumption of Mary. So Theotokos, Mother God, Perpetual Virginity, the Immaculate Conception and the Assumption. [00:02:36] Now, there have been a plethora of titles and devotional titles given to Mary over the centuries and different views about how she, her role in salvation history, how she works with Jesus Christ in the redemption and things of that nature. [00:02:53] And one title that is a few centuries old as far as its use is co Redemptrix, and another one is Mediatrix of All Graces. [00:03:05] And those two in particular, this document, this doctrinal note, is referring to, although I will say it is a. [00:03:15] It refers to more than that. But that's the crux of what we're going to talk about today, is that and in recent decades, there have been theologians and regular Catholics who have asked the Vatican, asked the pope specifically to declare Mary as co Redemptrix and as Mediatrix of All Graces, as the fifth Marian dogma. In fact, some Marian scholars really think this is like the final one that makes it complete our beliefs about Mary, when we have Mother of God, perpetual virginity, immaculate Conception, assumption, we also need, according to theologians, this giving her dogmatically the title of Co Redemptrix and Mediatrix of All Graces. [00:03:58] So one thing we got to be clear here is that what we're talking about is the definition of this as a dogma. [00:04:05] I'll go in this more, but this doctrine does not deny Mary. These titles of co Redemptrix and Mediation of All Grace didn't say they're heretical, but it's, you know, what we're going to see is it's basically saying we're not going to define it as a dogma and we don't think we should. And I'll talk about that in a minute. So that's though the, the, the kind of the Context in the 1990s, this push to get Mary declared as co Redemptrix as the fifth Marian dogma was very popular because it was believed that Pope John Paul ii, the pope at the time, was very much in favor of it. I remember this, this is when I became Catholic was in 1990s. I remember reading about this, hearing about this all over, like Catholic media of the time, things like that. Dr. Mark Miravalli, Professor, Stevenville at the time, I'm not 100 sure if Dr. Miravali is still at Studentville, if he's retired or I don't really know, to be honest. His, his current status. I apologize, Dr. Miravali. He was the probably the number one American theologian pushing for this definition of co Redemptrix as the fifth Marian dogma. [00:05:10] But like I said, this doctrine note says that it's inappropriate to call to do that, to define this as a dogma, as a definition of Mary's co Redemptrix. So before we talk about why they said this, let's make sure we're clear about what's Meant by CO Redemptrix. [00:05:28] We need to make sure this is clear. [00:05:31] Like I said, this has been around for years, for centuries. Various popes have used the title or basically used something very similar to the title. It means the same thing, including Pope Pius ix, Leo xiii, Pius X, who's a saint, Benedict xv, Pius xi, Pius XII, and John Paul ii. All those popes have in some way used this title. Co Redemption, I believe John Paul ii, I think the doctrinal note says this used at least seven times publicly. [00:05:58] And so it's not something that just came up last week. It's not something some weird sect of Catholics believes or something like that. It's a very well known, at least in Catholic circles, popular term. [00:06:12] It's not like it's used all the time just by your Catholic in the pew. But for people who are really into this stuff, it's not uncommon. [00:06:20] Now, the key thing to note here is the big hang up about what does it mean co redemptrix? Because co can mean various things in English. [00:06:32] It can mean like co pilot, meaning you're basically equal to the other pilot you're helping pilot the airplane. [00:06:39] It could also mean co worker. Just meaning with, for example, the CEO of a Fortune 500 company is a co worker with the janitor who cleans up at night in the building. [00:06:51] They're co workers. Doesn't mean they're equal. They don't have the same task. The janitor is not leading the charge, you know, leading the company. [00:06:59] But they are co workers. They both work at the same company. [00:07:03] And so co redemptrix, what it means when it's understood properly is that Mary in a very special way, works with our Lord in the redemption of souls. Christ is the one Redeemer. He. He is the one Redeemer. Nobody's questioning that. Nobody who believes in co Redemptrix as a legitimate title thinks that Christ isn't the ultimate and primary redeemer of the world. [00:07:29] But in a certain sense, all of us co redeem with him when we cooperate with his graces, particularly to save souls. [00:07:39] So somebody like St. Francis Xavier, who brought many people to the faith in Asia, he in a certain sense is a co redeemer with Christ, meaning he worked with Christ to bring about the redemption and to bring about the salvation of these souls. [00:07:56] And so what Co Redemptrix means, though, is that Mary in a very by giving her that specific title that you don't really give to other, you know, other people, but you give it to her because she has this special role in salvation history. She's the one who brought Christ into the world, literally through the Incarnation. [00:08:19] And so it's connected also to the title of Mary's Mediatrix, which we'll talk about here in a minute. [00:08:25] They're related, but they are slightly different emphasis between the two. [00:08:30] So that's what Co Redemptrix means. Like I said, it's not saying that Mary is a redeemer above or even equal to Christ. [00:08:38] It means that Mary works with Christ in the redemption souls in a very special, unique way. [00:08:44] And like I said, been held by many Catholics for centuries. Many popes have used the phrase as well. [00:08:51] So what does the note say about this? Let me just. First, I'm not going to go through the whole note. I'm just going to go through parts of it. [00:08:59] But in the section about the CO Redemptrix, it basically says, boy, that's a little bit small for me. Hopefully I can read it. Yeah. Okay. [00:09:08] So in paragraph 19, it says Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, 1996, who's the prefect of the then Congregation of Doctrine of Faith. In other words, Fernandez's predecessor was asked whether the request from the movement. [00:09:20] I can't read that right now. By a movement to define a dogma declaring Mary as Co Redemptrix or Mediatrix of All Graces, was acceptable. This is what I was talking about in the 1990s was very big. There was a push to get this defined. Defines the fifth Marian dogma in a personal votum. He replied negative. In other words, it's not appropriate to do. We're not going to declare that. And he says, the precise meaning of these titles is not clear and the doctrine contained in them is not mature. [00:09:48] A defined doctrine of divine faith belongs to the depositum fide, the deposit of faith, that is, to the divine revelation conveyed in Scripture in the Apostolic Tradition. [00:09:59] However, it is not clear how the doctrine expressed in these titles is present in Scripture and the Apostolic tradition. [00:10:06] Later, in 2002, he still had a CDF. At that point, he publicly voiced rationale, publicly voiced his opinion against the use of the title. The formula Co redemptrix departs too great to too great an extent from the language description of the Fathers and therefore gives rise to misunderstandings. [00:10:23] Everything comes from him, that is Christ as a letter to the Ephesians and the letter to the Colossians in particular tell us Mary, too, is everything that she is, is everything that she is through him. The word co redemptrix would obscure this origin, while Cardinal Ratzinger did not deny that there have been good intentions and valuable aspects in the proposal to use this title. He maintained that they were being expressed in the wrong way. So it's very clear here. Cardinal Ratzinger, who by the remember, was head of CDF under Pope John Paul ii, who used the term co redemptrix, says he did not think it was appropriate to use that as a defined title. Now, part of his reasoning was he just didn't feel like it was mature enough. Remember, the dogma of the Assumption of Mary has been held since. For. [00:11:10] Since the early Church, yet it wasn't defined till the 20th century. [00:11:16] Immaculate conception held for centuries, not defined until the 19th century. So the idea. So Ratzinger. Clearly Ratzinger was uncomfortable with the term co redemptrix. [00:11:28] He believed it would lead to too many misunderstandings. [00:11:32] But the crux of his argument is this needs more time. More time. We're not going to define this now. It'd be too rushed. We don't have a full understanding really what's meant by this. And if we do, maybe one day we could. But he did not think the time was there. And remember, he's saying this under John Paul ii, who had used the term in various situations and so was in some ways favorable to it. [00:11:56] The note then quotes Pope Francis in the next paragraph, I think it is. [00:12:02] It says on at least three occasions Pope Francis expressed his clear opposition to the title co Redemptrix, arguing that Mary, quote, never wished to appropriate anything of her son to herself. [00:12:12] She never presented herself as a co Savior. No, A disciple. [00:12:16] Christ's redemptive work was perfect and needs no addition. Therefore, Our lady did not want to take away any title from Jesus. She did not ask for herself to be a quasi Redeemer or a co Redeemer. No, there is only one Redeemer and this title cannot be duplicated. [00:12:32] Christ is the only Redeemer. There are no co Redeemers with Christ. And. And for quote, the sacrifice of the Cross, offered in the spirit of love and obedience, presents the most abundant and infinite satisfaction while we are able to extend its effects in the world. Neither the Church nor Mary can replace or perfect the redemptive work of the incarnate Son of God, which is perfect and needs no additions. So this is interesting because it's typical Francis. He gets things confused, he gets things wrong. He basically is accepting the improper understanding of the term co redemptrix and rejecting that. He's saying up a straw man and shooting it down. I mean, I don't Know if he doesn't know what co redemptrix how it's properly understood means, or if he just. [00:13:16] I don't know what. It's very typical Francis, confusing, not clear, basically saying things that are wrong, just flat out wrong. So it's not like Ratzinger, who understands exactly what co redemptrix means. [00:13:29] And he's not saying it's like heretical, he's just saying it's not the time. And, and I really not comfortable with it because it raised too many understand misunderstandings. Whereas Francis is like, oh, it's basically he's saying it's like making Mary equal to Christ, but that's not what it's doing. [00:13:45] So I mean, putting that in there, frankly is a knock against this note because you know all. I mean, honestly, that paragraph where you're quoting Francis, you could have quoted an anti Catholic Protestant who would say the same thing. So, you know, it kind of doesn't really help. [00:14:00] Then the next paragraph, the note makes its decision about this, this co Redemptrix title. It says, given the necessity of explaining Mary's subordinate role to Christ in the work of redemption, it would not be appropriate. Put that in italics. It would not be appropriate to use the title co Redemptrix to define Mary's cooperation. [00:14:23] This title risk obscuring Christ's unique salvific mediation and can therefore create confusion and an imbalance in the harmony of the truths of the Christian faith. For quote, there is salvation no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men, by which we must be saved, which is from Acts. [00:14:45] When an expression requires many repeated explanations to prevent it from straying from a correct meaning, it does not serve the faith of the people of God and becomes unhelpful, italicized unhelpful. In this case, the expression co redemptrix does not extol help, extol Mary as the first and foremost collaborator in the work of redemption and grace, for it carries the risk of eclipsing the exclusive role of Jesus Christ, the Son of God made man for our salvation, who is the only one capable of offering the Father a sacrifice of infinite value, which would not be true honor to his mother. [00:15:22] So, okay, so basically what they're saying is it's not appropriate to use this term Again, let me read the main part there. It would not be appropriate to use the title co Redemptrix to define Mary's cooperation. [00:15:39] So again it's saying it would not be appropriate to use that to define. In other words, we're not going to have a definition, a dogmatic definition of Mary's co Redemptrix. [00:15:49] And so that, that's basically what the note is saying about code. It shoots down the idea of a fifth Marian dogma of CO Redemptrix and says it's not really appropriate to use that title to define her, her. Her role in salvation. I'm going to talk in a little bit about my thoughts on this, but I want to kind of make sure we're clear what the note's saying. So let's move on to the, the next. The other title I want to talk about. They talk about different titles in the, in the document, but let me talk about the other main one, which is Mediatrix. [00:16:16] Now Mediatrix Mary as Mediatrix has a deeper tradition than as CO Redemptrix. [00:16:22] Like I said, they are definitely related to each other, the two titles, but they're not the same. The idea of Mediatrix is basically that again, we're all mediators of God's grace. [00:16:37] We should be. [00:16:38] Priests, for example, are always mediators of God grace because they bring us the sacraments, not in other words, the sacraments are mediated through the priest. But if I just pray for you, if somebody says, will you pray for me? I say yes, and I pray for them. I am mediating. I am a mediator between God and this person because I am asking God for this person for grace and blessings for them. [00:17:00] So the scriptures clearly say that there is one mediator between God and man, and that is Jesus Christ. [00:17:07] But as Catholics, we know that doesn't that the meaning of that can't mean that, that nobody ever mediates in any way, shape or form, because obviously we all do when we pray for people, when we work, you know, for other salvation, the sacraments, all that stuff. So of course there are other mediators, but there's only one true mediator because all our mediation goes through Jesus Christ. That's what it really means when it says there's one mediator between God and man is that when we mediate, all of our actions are through Christ. If they're not through Christ, they're worthless. We're not really mediating. So that's why, for example, a Muslim praying for you, that's not really mediating for you because it's not going through Jesus Christ. And so it's not mediation. It's not helpful for you. I mean, it's nice to have somebody who's being nice to you and praying for you, but their prayers are not helping you. [00:17:57] So Mary is Mediatrix again, it's saying she has a unique role in mediating Christ's salvation, Christ's redemption. To us, she is the Mediatrix. [00:18:08] And so there in fact is a feast on the old counter in 1921. And it brings this up in the note. People asked the Pope for, like, the definition of Mary's Mediatrix, but the Pope gave them, I think it was Benedict XV at the time, might have been Pius II, think it was Benedict 15th. He added a feast of counter of Mary, Mediatrix. And so an office and a Mass was. Was set up, set up for establishment May 31, I believe. [00:18:34] And so clearly there is a tradition. I mean, there's. If there's literally a liturgy named after this title, the title has a lot of bearing. It has a lot of weight to it in the Church. Obviously, again, that's not the same as a dogmatic definition. [00:18:52] So even though Mary is declared as Mediatrix in the liturgy, that's not the same as a dogmatic definition. So just to be clear about that, but it obviously gives it a lot of weight that the Church did not see the Mediatrix as something that is not proper, a proper title for Mary. [00:19:11] And so Mary as the Mediatrix, really, in one way, it's like we have to remember she literally, literally mediated the Incarnation and so therefore our salvation. Remember, Mary was free to say no to the angel Gabriel. [00:19:30] She was free to say no, but she didn't. And by saying yes, by her fiat, she mediated everything that came through Christ because obviously we wouldn't have Christ. He wouldn't have been born if not for Mary. Now, no, because of the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception, Mary is given all the graces at the moment of conception, even that is through Christ. Her yes comes through Christ. So we're not putting Mary before Jesus in the sense of, like, the way graces flow always comes from Christ, but in this case, through Mary. So Mary's a mediatrix. [00:20:12] And so what does the note say about this? Okay, it says the biblical statement about Christ's exclusive mediation is conclusive. Christ is the only mediator, for there is one God, and there's one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all. That's 1 Timothy 2, 5, 6. The church has clarified this unique place of Christ in light of the fact that he is the eternal and infinite Son of God, hypostatically united with the humanity he assumed this is exclusive to Christ's humanity, and the consequences that derive from it can only be properly applied to him. [00:20:47] In this precise sense, the Incarnate Word's role is exclusive and unique. Given this clarity in the revealed Word of God, special prudence is required. When applying the term Mediatrix to Mary. In response to a tendency to broaden the scope of Mary's cooperation through this title, it's helpful to specify the range of its value as well as its limits. And so here what we see is they don't say it's inappropriate. It says special prudence is required. Notice they're not saying you can't use the term Mediatrix even in the liturgy, apparently. [00:21:19] But special prudence is required, meaning they're afraid. [00:21:23] The ddf, Cardinal Fernandez, whoever, is afraid of people expanding what is meant by Mediatrix beyond what I basically how I just explained it, that all of a sudden you give to Mary certain. [00:21:37] A certain role that is above and beyond what she has actually been given by Christ. So they're just saying, let's use prudence with the term. I mean, they literally say it's inappropriate to use the term co redemptrix when defining her role, but here they're saying it's inappropriate. [00:21:51] And then they go on, though, and they specifically address the idea of Mediatrix of all graces, which is the more. Which is the term that's more recent and used a lot more. [00:22:03] Oh, by the way, I forgot to mention, when I'm talking about Mediatrix, that term was actually used in Vatican ii. [00:22:09] When I say it was, it's been on the calendar. Lumen gentium 62 actually says, Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked by the Church under the titles of Advocate, Auxiliary and Mediatrix. This, however, is to be so understood that it neither takes away from nor adds anything to the dignity and efficaciousness of Christ, the one Mediator. So Lumen Jensen literally called her Mediatrix that she was called Mediatrix. So again, I think they knew. Okay, we can't say it's inappropriate to use the term Mediatrix, but it requires special prudence. But then they go on to Mediatrix of All Graces, and frankly, the document's pretty harsh on this term. [00:22:51] Some titles, such as Mediatrix of All Graces, have limits that do not favor a correct understanding of Mary's unique place. In fact, she, the first Redeemed, could not have been the Mediatrix of the grace that she herself received. [00:23:04] This is not a minor point, since it reveals something central. [00:23:08] Even in Mary's case, the gift of grace precedes her and comes from the absolutely free initiative of the Trinity in view of Christ's merits. Like all of us, she did not merit her justification by a preceding action of her own, nor did she do so by any subsequent action. [00:23:24] So it says also, it goes on, says, on the other hand, the title Mediatric of all graces risk presenting Mary as the one who distributes spiritual goods or energies apart from our personal relationship with Jesus Christ. [00:23:36] Nonetheless, the term graces, when seen in reference to Mary's maternal help at various moments in our lives, can have an acceptable meaning. [00:23:44] The plural form expresses all the aids, even material, that the Lord may grant us when he heeds his mother's intercession. [00:23:52] These helps in turn prepare our hearts to open to God's love. In this way, Mary as mother has a presence in the daily lives of the faithful is far greater than the closeness of any other saint could have done. [00:24:04] This is a lot stronger language. [00:24:07] In fact, it implies that saying that Mary is a Mediatrix of all graces is actually heretical. It does not say it's heretical, but it implies it's contrary to the truth. [00:24:19] Because it says Mary couldn't have been the Mediatrix of the own graces she received. That'd be a circular argument. I mean, there's. I understand what they're saying there that we know from the Immaculate Conception definition of Immaculate Conception that Mary received graces at the moment of her conception. In other words, those graces did not come through her in any way because they obviously gave her to her before she even, you know, at the moment of her first existence. [00:24:42] So calling her Mediator Mediatrix of all Graces, according to this document, really is problematic because it seems to. [00:24:50] It seems to confuse that point and perhaps make it like she is the origin of all graces. [00:24:55] Now, just to be clear, what is meant by Mediatrix of all Graces is that God in his designs, has decided to pass on graces to the world through his mother. In one sense, all the graces we receive come from Jesus Christ, who came into the world through Mary. So in that very sense, that's why we call our media actually of all Graces. But the note mentions, hey, but what about the graces she receives? [00:25:20] Okay, so that's basically. Those are the three I wanted to talk about. It says it's inappropriate to call her co Redemptrix. It is not prudent. Basically, you should use special Prudence when using Mediatrix generally. And it's really. I mean, they're basically saying it's wrong to say media call her Mediatrix of all Graces. So that's kind of where we are right now. That's what it says. So what do I think about all this? Because obviously there's a lot here to unpack and we've just talked about what, what it said. We haven't even gotten into what kind of my analysis, so to speak. [00:25:54] The first thing I'll say is, and I'm going to say this kind of bluntly, this is not a terrible document, but it's written by a terrible man. [00:26:02] I don't know any other way to put it. Cardinal Fernandez is just, he's, he's a, he's a scandal. He's a scandal to the church. He is the man who wrote the document endorsing same sex couple blessings. And don't give me this stupid argument. Oh, it wasn't really same sex couples. It was just each. Oh, we all know what it was. [00:26:24] Everybody knows what it was. [00:26:26] It was, it was a bless. It was allowing priests to give blessings to same sex couples. That's exactly what it was. [00:26:32] Even most of the bishops knew what it was, for God's sake. So anyway, he's not, you know, he's the one who's got some really bizarre stuff in his past, like the kiss me with your mouth book he wrote back in the 90s. And so I, nothing, I. If I say anything positive about this document, it's not an endorsement. Cardinal Fernandez, you know, I mean, they wrote a document about a year ago about artificial intelligence. He did. That was good. I liked it. You know, so I'm not saying like everything he writes is awful. I'm not saying this is awful. Even like I said, it's not a terrible document. It makes a lot of great points about making it very clear what we believe about Mary and what we don't believe. But it couldn't have a worse author, to be honest. It is very. Because it's very hard, frankly. Here's another issue I want to say. [00:27:18] It's very hard to trust Vatican officials, especially Fernandez, that they have a truly Catholic spirit. And I don't like to say that, but it's true. There's just, I mean, because obviously most of the vacuum officials are still from the Francis regime and they tend to over emphasize ecumenism and they seem to be dead desperate to be pleasing to Protestants. [00:27:38] This has been a problem for decades. They are just, they overemphasize ecumenism and they are desperate to please Protestants. And so their emphasis on we can not do anything that might confuse Protestants or bring misunderstandings with Protestants, it just really, first of all, that shouldn't be the priority of Catholics of the Catholic Church in particular, we should be defending what we believe and explaining it, not hiding from it and running from it because we're afraid some crazy, you know, Baptist preacher in Alabama is going to preach against it, that it's, that it's wrong. I mean, what do we care? [00:28:17] Yeah, sure, we want to make sure it's clear so that our Protestant brothers and sisters understand it well. But if they're not willing to listen to our arguments, you know, it doesn't matter. [00:28:27] And so that's one thing. But then also this is something I saw a couple people bring up already. [00:28:31] They don't seem to be care too much about causing confusion in like a lot of other ways. Yeah, sure, we're going to throw an idol of Pachamama up and have a bunch of people, you know, kneel, genuflect to it and bow down to it. On the Vatican grounds, we're going to have a document that basically says let's endorse same sex, you know, bless same sex couples. [00:28:53] And then we're going to try to explain them all away. But we're not going to care too much about confusing Catholics. [00:28:58] They care so much more about whether or not they confuse Protestants. They don't care anything about confusing actual faithful Catholics. [00:29:05] And so it's very hard to read a document like this without having like your hackles up just going into it. Just like, oh my gosh, you're angry just because you know what these men have done, like somebody like Cardinal Fernandez, what he's done in the past. [00:29:20] So I get all that. And also is this really the thing we need to be talking about now? We have all these, you know, these issues in the church today. [00:29:32] Marian titles. That's the one, that's the one that deserves a DDF document. [00:29:37] A doctrinal note. It seems like their focus is always on potential problems with faithful Catholics. [00:29:45] They seem to never care about like, okay, let's, you know, what are the issues with people who did, who reject church teaching? It's the people who embrace church teaching and want it to flourish. Those are the people they seem to nitpick the most. [00:29:58] And it's not to say that, you know, faithful Catholics don't have problems, don't need some correction at times. But the emphasis just seems to be very bizarre. Makes it difficult again to really kind of hear what's being said here. [00:30:14] So what do I really think though about like the, the specifics of the document? It's kind of like my general feeling like I understand why people are going to be. Have a difficult, you know, going at. [00:30:27] Difficulty in accepting, frankly, anything coming out of the back in these days. But I think we should read it with a, with a docile heart in one sense, like, in the sense of like we're trying, we should be trying to, to listen to what the Vatican says. If your first reaction is just simply rejection before you even read it. And I know people like that. There are people like that out there, didn't even read it and they already rejected it, then I, it's just a, you know, that that's not good. [00:30:53] The one thing, one thing I want to say too is, saw somebody saying this. I won't say who was. But Mary was not demoted by the Vatican. I mean, you know, the Vatican did not demote Mary. That's just stupid. That's engagement bait. It's, you know, to get clicks. It's not helpful to say things like that. That's not what this document's doing. It's not demoting Mary. [00:31:15] That's, that's just dumb. And in fact, frankly, it's a little scandalous to say that because you're basically claiming that the Vatican is somehow attacking Mary or somehow going against the Blessed Mother. That's not what this document's doing. We can disagree with whether or not they should have said the things, some of the things they said, but they didn't demote Mary. Come on, guys, let's be a little better than this. [00:31:39] And I also will say that the fact is the title co redemptrix and Mediatrix of All Graces are difficult to explain. I mean, if you've been involved with apologetics for any length of time, you know this, you know this is. These are hurdles, but there are other hurdles. Mother of God is probably the greatest hurdle in our engagement with Protestants on Mary is the title Mother of God. You get that to this day, people claiming, oh, you're saying Mary came before God, that, you know, God didn't exist without Mary and stuff like that, which, of course, that's not what Mother of God means. Yet the church, hopefully the church won't, doesn't say, well, that's inappropriate to use the term Mother of God. It was dogmatically defined. We can't say that. [00:32:27] So transubstantiation, there's another one. [00:32:30] There's some difficulty in explaining that. Let's not act like there isn't. There's difficulty explaining Mother God. There's difficulty in explaining transubstantiation. There's a whole host of Catholic dogmas. And doctrines that are difficult to explain, especially to modern ears. To Protestants. That's not a reason alone to basically say, okay, we're going to kind of jettison the term or something like that. [00:32:53] Also, I want to say that it is possible to overemphasize Mary's role. I'm not claiming that's not possible. Theoretically, it is possible. Obviously, if you believe Marian somehow is equal to God, equal to Christ, came before Christ, anything like that, that is wrong. However, I will say, in my experience, the people I know who most emphasize Mary's role, who kind of are the Marian freaks, you know, I'm not saying that in a derogatory way. Please don't make. Because you'll hear what I'm about to say about that. [00:33:26] They're like the holiest people I know. [00:33:28] I mean, literally, the people I meet who go over the top for Mary, they really are the holiest people I know. And, like, look right behind me. I have a perfect. Wrong way. I have a perfect example. Saint Maximilian Colby. That dude was the most over the top Marian person who ever lived. Probably, if you read some of the stuff he said, like, you know, you are kind of like, whoa, he really is going there. I mean, he really is going over the top for Mary. And dude is awesome, an awesome saint. I mean, he's one of the top. One of my top saints. I mean, we know his story, but in person, like, in actual, my real life, the people, the Catholics I know who really kind of go over the top for Mary, they're super holy. So, like, can we really. I mean, in practice, do we really ever overemphasize Mary? Do people? Is that really something that's happening, Happening now? [00:34:20] I do think part of it is that there's a certain. [00:34:24] There's a certain allergy, like allergic reaction among certain members of the hierarchy to popular piety. [00:34:35] Popular piety that is kind of messy. A little bit like seeing like, you know, the Mexicans on their knees, you know, walking, following a statue of Mary and. And things like that. [00:34:46] That's. That comes across a little distasteful to the theological elite, so to speak. And they're like. They kind of sniff their nose down at it. And that's. So that seems to be a problem. That's why they don't like traditional Mass, by the way. One of the reasons they don't like traditional at Mass, for the same reason, same idea. Because traditional Mass, for all its beauty and grandeur, and how. The funny thing with traditional Mass, of course, it appeals to the intellectually elite, but it also appeals to, like, the man on the street, the real pious woman or something like that. [00:35:18] So I do think there's kind of allergic reaction to that. And I think that's part of the meaning of this. They don't want people to go too crazy on some of these devotions that they're doing. But like I said, I can't think of somebody who wasn't over the top for Mary, who wasn't super holy. It's actually one of the reasons I really started to recognize that this was years ago when I first became Catholic. I've been Catholic through praying the Rosary. So obviously I was never anti Marian as a Catholic, but the first few years as a Catholic, I admit I struggled with the Marian teachings as. Because my Protestant upbringing made it difficult for me. I always would be like, I pray to Mary and be like, I'll make. As long as I'm doing this in a way that's pleasing you, Christ, you know, accept this prayer type of thing. Over time, though, I saw so many people who were so over the top about Mary and they were so holy. I'm like, okay, I want to be like them. [00:36:05] So that's another thing. Now, I also think we should be clear about what this document says and what it does not say. It did not say that the title Co Redemptrix was heretical. It did not say the title of Mediatrix was heretical. It suggested Mediatrix of All Graces was wrong, that that was actually inaccurate. It did say that, but it didn't say it was. It wasn't a doctrinal statement. In other words, this note, the language was one of appropriateness and prudence, not heresy. [00:36:35] And obviously neither are heretical when understood properly, or else we wouldn't have had popes, more and more popes over time using it. [00:36:44] And, you know, and so many Catholics. So it's not. So as I understand it, then, Catholics can still use these titles in their personal devotions. After all, remember what it said. It said it would not be appropriate to use the title Co Redemptrix to define Mary's cooperation. In other words, we're not making a dogmatic definition that Mary's Co Redemptrix. We don't think that's appropriate. [00:37:08] And so that's what it's saying. It's not saying, you know, Sally, Catholic in the pews, if you're praying a prayer that includes the title of Co Redemptrix for Mary, you can't use that. It didn't say that. And so we shouldn't, let's not overreact in how we, you know, about this document. So it's still, I still think it's fine. I mean, if I'm, if somebody, if a theologian, a bishop, priest, like that says I'm wrong on this, I take it back. But I'm pretty confident in reading this. It's not saying you can never use this title in personal devotions. They're simply saying the Church is not going to find it as a Marian dogma. Same thing with, essentially, with Mediatrix, it was just saying you need special prudence, even saying you could use it. Special prudence when using it. So if you have like a litany of Mary that you pray, that includes CO Redemptrix and pediatrics, and I don't think it's saying you shouldn't use that. I think you're fine to use that. Mediatrix fold Graces it is kind of shying away from that title, let's be honest. [00:38:04] And let's also be clear. There are a lot of faithful Catholics who are uncomfortable with the title Co Redemptrix. This is not something of the faithful, traditional Catholics against the evil Vatican Modernists. [00:38:17] That's not the case. There's a lot of faithful Catholics who were not comfortable with it. They, they didn't think it was appropriate to use the term mediat. I'm sorry, CO Redemptrix either. So let's not be knee jerk because it came from Cardinal Fernandez, who we know is a modernist and has lots of problems, that therefore it's. It's this battle between good and evil, that only the evil people are saying this and only the good people are saying the other. It's not. That's not the way this is going. There is many good points made in this document. [00:38:47] It's not a heretical document in any way. [00:38:50] Lisa, I, I will admit, obviously came out today. I read it quickly, so maybe there's a heresy in there that I missed, but I, I don't think so. [00:38:59] And it's also true that it's possible, based the way this document is written, that a future Pope could reverse course. A future Pope can still declare Mary as Co Redemptrix, as a dogmatic definition, as Mediatrix. It's still possible because we're talking about prudential decisions here, inappropriateness, prudence, things like that. We're not talking doctrinal definitions here. And so popes have used the term in the past, they could use the term in the future and even dogmatically define it. In fact, One of the things that kind of as a side note that I thought was interesting is by saying it's inappropriate and like basically admitting though in the document that popes in the past have used it, it's admitting that when popes write these documents, they're not infallible, they're not like perfect and they can't use and like we can't criticize them. [00:39:44] And this is like just going my, my papal minimalist ideal. Just because JP2, you know, he used CO Redemptrix, they're basically saying that wasn't appropriate really to do that. [00:39:54] So it's okay for us to say sometimes that papal documents aren't, aren't appropriate. In some things they say that's how I. That's one thing I noticed that about that now I kind of know. [00:40:07] I know that, like, I have a reputation of being kind of a middle of the road or on some of these things, like, I don't take either extreme. And the fact is, if I took an extreme, my channel would do a lot better. If I said things, if I had titles like Vatican Demotes Mary, I'd get a lot more clicks. Or if I said something like Vatican Rightly Demotes Mary or Vatican Rightly Rejects Trad Title or something like that, I get more clicks. [00:40:32] That's. Things get clicks. Here I am saying that basically the document is not that bad. It's not terrible and it's not some, you know, attack on Mary like that. But I would say this, I would kind of say this document is kind of like what it says about the title of, you know, mediation, like that it's not very prudent and it can cause confusion. Like, I think this document can cause confusion because it's like, wait a minute. People have been saying Co Redemptrix for centuries. Catholics have use Mediatrix. Now you're saying it's inappropriate. Like, why. Why are we doing this? And so like, in a sense, I would apply their logic they use for the terms Co Redemptrix and Mediatrix, I'd apply this document. I personally don't think it was prudent, a prudent document to release. I don't think what they said was prudent. But I'm not going to, I'm not going to lose any sleep over it because the church wasn't going to define Cogener 6 as a Marian dogma anytime soon anyway. And so it's just basically saying that, like, guess what? It ain't happening anytime soon. Well, it wasn't going to happen. Anytime soon anyway. There wasn't this great demand for it like there was with the assumption of immaculate conception. So it wasn't going to happen. [00:41:45] Which is why I think they should have ignored it and not bothered. There wasn't some growing heretical sect within Catholicism that was worshiping Mary or something like that. So it's kind of dumb I thought, to release it. [00:41:57] Okay. As you know, it's Tuesday, which means we are live. [00:42:01] And so let's look at the live chat a little bit. Okay. Anna Kate Howell says Dr. Mary Valley is still here. He teaches mostly Mariology classes. I haven't had him, but I hear good things. Thank you, Mary. Anna Kate. I was hoping somebody from Steubenville would let me know. I thought he was there, but then I was afraid of misspeaking and if I, you know, that he, that he had retired or something like that, so. Dr. Miravalli. Professor Mark Mirvalli, professor at Steubenville. Okay. John says, why was this needed? Why did our Pope have to mention this? Just seems odd. Yeah, John, you commented before. I said basically just that at the end here, which is. I just didn't think it was needed, you know. Okay. Cassandra says hi. Well, hi to you too, Antonio. Pedro says the union between the Holy Spirit and the Immaculate Virgin is so close, she has become the media, actually of all grace to Saint Maximilian Colby. Yeah, you're going to get lots of languages like that from St. Maximilian Colby. And so like, I, I, I, as a Colby guy, I'm not gonna, like, I'm not arguing with Saint Maximilian. You go ahead. Somebody else can argue with him. I'm not going to argue with him. But definitely there have been saints, great saints who have applied these type of titles to Mary in the past. [00:43:07] Grateful serious Catholic says throwing Mary under the bus for some false unity with the world. I don't think they're throwing Mary under the bus. See, I, I disagree with that. With way of. That's kind of like saying Vatican demotes Mary. I don't, I think that is, that just adds to the division among Catholics than anything else. Again, was it prudent for them to release a document like this? I don't think so. Was it throwing Mary under the bus? No, because if you read it, it's very clear over and over again. It does ascribe to Mary a unique position in the plan of salvation, and it does not, like, demote her. It's basically saying, we don't think these titles are, are appropriately understood. I, I disagree with them, but, you know, I Don't think they're throwing Mary under the bus. [00:43:51] Tiana Moer says perhaps the document is being good despite the man being bad, as a sign of the Holy Spirit protecting the Church. Yeah, I mean, I wouldn't say the document's good, it's just not terrible. I mean, I don't think it. Like I said, it's not prudent, it's not heretical, anything like that. But I would agree that sometimes it might be true. But the problem with that, Tiana, is the fact that this same man has released documents that are not good, that are evil, in fact. I mean, fiduciary supplicants was evil. He released it. So is that a sign of the Holy Spirit not protecting the Church? I think it's more accurate to say that the Holy Spirit does not micromanage the Church. He does not prevent, you know, Vatican dicastery documents from not being bad. That's not. That's, you know, he. If we pray to him and the people who write him are praying to him, he will prevent it. But if they're not, then he won't. [00:44:40] DK o' Rourke says, can you please address abuse cases, the Vatican bank, parish closing, poor catechism, churches being desecrated in Christian persecution. Best I can do is a document Marian titles. Yeah, exactly. I mean, yeah, there's so much that we. That should be addressed right now in the Church. And so the idea of Marian titles being an issue that needs to worry about is kind of silly. [00:45:02] Antonio Pedro says at today's press conference presenting the document called Cardinal Victor Fernandez said, quote, today we present a doctrinal note as important to specify that the term doctrinal in the title indicates that this document has special value superior to other documents we've published in recent years. Signed by the Pope belongs magisterium of the Church and must. Okay, let's keep going. [00:45:23] Maybe there's more of that to that. Let me find it here, basically. Okay, let me see here. [00:45:33] I don't see it here. [00:45:36] Okay, I don't. I don't see it here. But anyway, the point is, is that he is claiming, you know, it's got the word. I mean, not. Not Antonio, but. But Cardinal Fernandez is saying, oh, it's got the term doctrinal in its doctrine, though. So therefore it's doctrine, therefore it has special authority. I mean, this is typical Cardinal Fernandez just saying things that have no real mean theological meaning. [00:45:58] I mean, the fact is, is it doesn't say. The document itself that he wrote doesn't say that it's doctrinally wrong to call Mary co Redemptrix. It doesn't say it's doctrinally wrong to call Mary Mediatrix. It does say it's problematic or Mediatric of all Graces. So, I mean, there is that, but even that's not this strong doctrinal language. So it's just kind of. It's crazy. So I, you know, I'm not gonna, you know, I'm not gonna worry about, you know, what he says at the press conference. So anyway, okay. And I see from the quotes, a lot of people are just kind of really, you know, more upset than I think they should be. I'm more so. I mean, this, I'm not saying this is a nothing burger. Like I said, it shouldn't have been released and it causes some confusion. But it's not the end of the world, guys. It's not like it's not demoting Mary. It's not saying that calling her co Redemptrix is heretical or anything like that. I think the biggest issue here is the title of Mediatrix of All Graces, that it does say that there's problems with that. And I think the language, the argument it makes that should be addressed that Mary obviously received graces for herself. [00:47:08] She can't be the Mediatrix of all that. I think really, what is another case of if you understand what is meant by Mediatrix of All Graces, it's going to be completely orthodox. [00:47:18] But there's reasons for confusion and, and so I think other confusions should be addressed first. I'll put it that way. So, okay, I'm going to cut it off there. I appreciate, by the way, I appreciate all the comments. I saw there was a whole bunch of comments in the live chat. I appreciate that. Like, we're doing this now where we have it come up on the screen. Hopefully you can see that if you want to kind of follow the comments while I'm talking. I do appreciate everybody who does come, even the people who say, eric, you're coping. You're, you know, whatever. That's cool too. As long as you're not vile or like, use bad language. [00:47:46] We're not going to delete your comment for disagreeing with me or anything like that. I appreciate that, actually. [00:47:51] Okay, well, until next time then, everybody. God love you.