Against Catholic Zionism

[00:00:01] A Catholic Zionist organization recently released a theologically confused manifesto titled For Zion's A Catholic Appeal in Support of Israel. Today I'm going to break down what it got wrong and what Catholics should and should not believe about the modern state of Israel. Hello, I'm Eric Sammons and welcome to Crisis. [00:00:32] Foreign. [00:00:36] We get started, I just want to note that we are right now in our twice a year fundraising campaign. We do this in, typically in December and in May. And it's the only time we beg you for money. You can give to us anytime, of course, but it's the only time we beg you for money. [00:00:53] Everything that we produce, all the content we produce at Crisis magazine, both on the podcast and at the, at the website, is all offered for free. You don't have to pay a dime to access any of it. However, obviously it's not free to produce. And so we ask that you would donate. So just go to crisismagazine.com you should get a pop up window, ask you to donate. If you don't, there's a link I think in the upper right that says donate. If you could give anything at this time, we would greatly appreciate that. So again, go to crisismagazine.com for that. [00:01:24] Okay. Also I want to remind people this is one of our Tuesday afternoon live sessions. So join the live chat and we'll, we'll post up some of the comments and questions at the end of the program. [00:01:38] Okay, so today what I want to talk about, as you know, I want to talk about Catholic Zionism. [00:01:44] Now I know you know this is a quote unquote controversial topic. This is one that often gets people very upset. Get. There's very little constructive dialogue discussion that goes on about this topic. When you go online, it's usually people calling, either calling people anti Semitic or Jew lovers or whatever. I mean the case may be. And so, and I also know, because in this episode I'm going to be very critical of Catholic Zionism, very critical of Israel at times that I will be called an anti Semite. I think we had a comment on the live chat a couple weeks ago as to the effect of, you know, I just hate Israel, which of course isn't true. [00:02:28] But and the truth is name calling is part of this discussion and what it does, I think it, it leads people to not want to discuss these things openly and honestly. And I think that's unfortunate because people are afraid they're going to be considered anti Semitic or, or something else. [00:02:48] And also I will admit that for years I avoided the subject out of fear. I mean, you know, bluntly, I just didn't want to be called one of those people who was, you know, I don't know, associated with, with the, the crazies of the world, with the fringe. And I, I just can't help it anymore. I just can't. I mean, I, I can't. I don't care anymore if I'm associated with people like Nick Fuentes, whom I'm not a fan of. And I made that very clear. But people think I am just because. [00:03:17] Reasons. [00:03:19] So anyway, I do think this is important, though, to talk about. And the reason I think it's important to talk about is because it's important to be theologically accurate about the subject, about what we mean when it comes to Zionism, Israel and the Jews, what the Catholic Church teaches, what it doesn't teach, what it means to be, you know, the, the covenant, the Old Covenant in relationship to the New Covenant, the existence of the Old Covenant today, things of that nature. [00:03:48] It's important, first of all, because it impacts world politics, as we all know. [00:03:52] But it's also, I just think it's important because. And more important because it impacts our understanding of the faith, our understanding of God's promises, of the covenant that we live under, things of that nature. So I do think that it's important that we address these subjects and we address them honestly and directly. [00:04:09] Okay, so I. The way I want to do this is there is a. I'll pull it up here on the screen for a moment. [00:04:15] There was a statement made by. For Catholics for Israel. It's an organization, outwardly Catholic Zionist organization, and they recently published a manifesto, a statement, whatever you want to call it, for Zion's sake, a Catholic appeal in support of Israel. And in this statement, they had a couple dozen people sign it, which honestly is a little bit not that high. And by the way, I put a link to this statement in the live chat, but I'll also put in the show notes if you want. Follow along while you're listening. I'm not going to keep it up on the screen the whole time, but I am going to read from various sections of it. But anyway, this was signed by a couple dozen signatories. I didn't, don't really recognize most of the people that, that signed. I think it was about 30 or so. I did know a couple of them. Deacon Keith Fournier, I know him. He's a good man. I, I like him. I have a good relationship with him. And also Christopher Mahone. I think that's how you pronounce it Christopher. I'm sorry if I'm mispronouncing your last name. M A, H O, N. [00:05:16] He's a member of the Anglican Ordinariate. They both signed it. I obviously disagree with them, as you will find in my critique here. But I don't think they're like bad people. In fact, I'm assuming everybody who, who signed this acted in good, in good faith and with a understanding that what they were doing is the proper Catholic view. I, I think they're wrong, like I said. But I, I'm not. I'm not maligning their motives or their intentions. [00:05:44] And the truth is, if you look at the statement, not everything in it is bad. I mean, there's calls for acting in Christian charity towards Jews. I think that's obviously true. They do mention the importance of the, of. They don't blame all the Palestinians for, For the problems. And they do. They do call out that, that the Palestinians should not be persecuted either. They should not be unjustly attacked or anything of that nature. [00:06:10] And so, you know, there are parts of this that I would agree with, obviously, but I would argue that they are dangerously wrong in many cases, particularly theologically. And so let me just go through. I printed it out myself. It's about 11 pages of printout because I highlighted things. I just thought this was easier than trying to constantly look at the screen and do it. I might pull it back up again on the screen at some point, but like I said, you can just go to the link. You can follow along. [00:06:37] So basically, it starts off. [00:06:39] Gotta take off my glasses to read this. [00:06:42] It starts off, since the Hamas terrorist attack of October 7, 2023, in which 1200 Israel Israelis were massacred and some 250 taken hostage. With the widening regional conflict between Israel, Iran and their respective allies that followed, a disturbing pattern has been taken hold in public discourse. [00:07:02] Voices across the political and media landscape, many of them Catholic, have made opposition to Israel into a kind of litmus test, dismissing American support for the Jewish state as a geopolitical betrayal, downplaying the existential threats Israel has faced from its founding, and advancing hostility towards Israel as a coherent moral stance. This outsized Catholic presence among these voices is not incidental. [00:07:27] Amplified by social media, this rhetoric has worked to establish anti Israel sentimental as the default Catholic position. [00:07:34] This deal in legitimization operates on two levels, political and theological, and the two reinforce each other. Okay, so basically, of course, they start with October 7th. And I, I will just say that is right there. I have an issue because the world did not start in October 7th. October 7th. What happened was horrible, obviously, but I think it, it has to be seen in context. And I think one thing Americans in particular do is they, they pick a date and they start everything starting at that date. Like anything came before. It just doesn't even matter anymore. And I think that's, you see that here a little bit. But also they just. Interesting that this rhetoric has worked to establish anti Israel sentiment as a default Catholic position. Now, I just want to be clear. I think we all know the default Catholic position is definitely pro Israel. I mean, I think if you, I'm just talking about the default what the average Catholic in the pew, particularly in America. Maybe this isn't true in other countries, but if you, if you pulled the typical American Catholic who's actually going to mass on Sundays, it's very likely they're going to be pro Israel. Very few are going to be anti Israel. So I don't, I, maybe they're just saying we're trying to do it. I'm not sure. [00:08:47] So then it goes on. It just states on the political level, the state of Israel faces a relentless barrage of accusations and it goes through some of the accusations against it. Now here's the thing. [00:08:58] And, and you know, and it defends Israel, saying that it is large, is home to a large and diverse population of Arab and non Jewish citizens who enjoy full legal equality, including the right to vote. And far from persecuting Christians, Israel hosts a growing Christian population whose native members increasingly identify Zionists and active supporters of state. So basically goes on to say that this is on the political level. [00:09:23] I just want to stay here. I'm not going to really discuss that in this podcast because I do think there's a legitimate debate there. I do think it's legitimate to debate the, the, the, the state, the modern state of Israel. Like how does it treat Christians? How does it, you know, what, does it have a, a good democracy? Should it be an ally of the United States? [00:09:46] You know, what's, what, what would happen if the US Was no longer its ally to it? Things of that nature. Has it, has it committed crimes against humanity, against God in Gaza and other places? All that is all legitimate debate. I mean, it's all a legitimate discussion. It's just not what I'm concerned about. In, usually in general, but also in, in this podcast in particular. I have my opinions. I think everybody knows what my opinions are. I, I've been pretty critical of Israel on a political level, but that's not really what I think is most important because I do think you can be a faithful Catholic and hold opinions about the political status of Israel. Very different from mine, very different from, you know, others. It's okay, I might disagree with you, but it's not like you're no longer a faithful Catholic. However, it goes on, the statement goes on, says on the theological level, and here's where I care because I do think this matters a lot more than the political level because I do think it impacts our own understanding of the faith, our own understanding of God's covenants, of how God has worked in salvation history. So this is where I really, I think it's concerning. [00:10:56] I think there's a lot of errors. It's theologically confused. I said earlier, on the theological level, certain Catholic theologians, apologists and online commentators have moved towards an increasingly radical supersessionism, insisting that the Church is the new and true Israel. Not simply in the legitimate sense that the Church fulfills and universalizes Israel's call, but in the far stronger historically recurring assertion that the Church replaces it entirely. Okay, just from that statement, a couple things I want to note. First, the increasingly radical supersessionism, this is just, honestly this is just like name calling in the theological world. You get these terms and you, and you make them not acceptable and then you label people with it. Supersessionism is one of those, this idea that the, that the, the New Covenant supersedes the Old Covenant, that it, that it replaces the Old Covenant and they just, they use these terms as name calling to try to diminish their opponents. And I think that's, you know, I'm going to ignore that. [00:12:02] You know, I'm not going to let it impact me. But I thought was interesting is, is like it says the far stronger historically recurring assertion that the Church replaces it entirely. [00:12:14] As Catholics we call that tradition. [00:12:19] I mean, it's kind of funny a couple different times in this, in this statement it notes that, that, that, that basically supersessionism, the idea that, that the New Covenant replaces the Old Covenant is something that is very common. If you look at the history, and they go on and I'll talk about it in a moment, they think that's been superseded itself by the, by the, by new theology of Vatican II and later. [00:12:48] But this is fundamentally a non Catholic way of looking at things. If something has been historically recurring within the Church, if saints and theologians and, and, and popes have, have said these things time and time again for almost 2000 years, we can't just dismiss that and be like, ah, it's historically recurring, but it doesn't really matter anymore. We have new beliefs. We don't have new beliefs now we can. And I, I'm already wanting to jump to this and I'm not going to jump to it yet because I want to talk about something else they say later. [00:13:24] But I will say this. [00:13:26] We can change how we interact with others, for example, how we do certain things, how, you know, prudential decisions like that. [00:13:35] But the theology, it doesn't change. If it's historically recurring within Catholicism that Catholics have believed that the New Testament replaces the New Covenant, replaces the Old Covenant, that's called tradition. [00:13:53] And so we basically can't just reject that out of hand. [00:14:00] Okay, so it continues to say in this view, the modern Jewish people have no meaningful continuity with biblical Israel. I wouldn't say that, by the way. I'd say there is some continuity, but it's not as strong as most Catholic Zionists would say. [00:14:13] The Jewish presence in land of Israel carries no theological significance whatsoever. I would say that's absolutely true. They're saying this is a bad thing. No, the Jewish presence in the land of Israel, the modern state of Israel carries no theological significance. I, I think that's true. I think that's absolutely true. And then nothing the Church has ever taught would say it is not true. [00:14:33] There is no teaching that says it's not true. [00:14:36] And Christian Zionism, however defined, is a heresy to be condemned. I mean, I do think there are forms of Christian Zionism, Catholic Zionism that are heresies. I, I think it's a little more nuanced than that. I think it depends on how you hold to the, the, the, the Old Covenant, the New Covenant, things like that. But I don't think it's just automatically, if you're a Christian Zionist, you're a heretic. But I do think there are their flavors of it that are heretical. [00:14:59] It continues. What they fail to acknowledge people who are critical of Christian Zionism is that while forms of supersessionism were widespread in pre conciliar Catholic commentary, theological commentary, the Church's renewed engagement with Scripture and with the Jewish people since the Shoah, I think I say pronounce it, you know, the Holocaust has led to a deeper and more faithful reading of the mystery of Israel, one that the Magisterium now consistently, has now consistently endorsed. Okay, this is, I mean this is, this is it what I was talking about before. [00:15:33] It's basically saying the Church has changed doctrine. [00:15:37] You can claim the Church has changed certain practices like how it relates to Jews whether or not it's going to dialogue with them and things like that. All that is possible because those are all prudential decisions. But it literally is saying here, it's saying forms of supersessional sessionism were widespread, widespread and pre conciliar Catholic theological commentary, which is a way of saying, Catholics always believe this. It was part of the tradition. [00:16:04] But then it says, like, now there's a deeper and more faithful reading of the mystery of Israel. This is basically saying what the church has taught about the Jews until Vatican ii, at least till after the Holocaust, is wrong. And I have a hard time seeing how you can say that as a Catholic. We can't. It. Honestly, to me, it sounds exactly like, it sounds exactly like progressives when they talk about artificial birth control. [00:16:33] They acknowledge, yeah, the church was always against artificial birth control. But now with the advent of the pill, we see, we understand more deeply, we have a more deeper and more faithful reading of the mystery of human sexuality. That's literally almost a word for word how they would talk. [00:16:53] And they're saying here the same thing. They're using the same argument that like, basically because of the, the, the, the Holocaust and, and after that, now we have a deeper, more faithful reading of the mystery of Israel. [00:17:07] And I just think that is a rupture. This is a rupture. And you can't have ruptures in Catholic teaching. [00:17:15] You can, like I said, you can change practical aspects, but you can't change doctrine. And this is what it's calling for here. [00:17:22] Okay, so then it continues on. [00:17:26] Okay, it says beyond the Church. This dynamic confirms what many in the Jewish world have feared since October 7th. This is the anti Israel uprising within Catholicism that Catholic institutions range from indifferent to actively hostile towards the security and legitimacy of the Jewish state. [00:17:43] That perception does serious damage to the Jewish Catholic relationship. Arguably the most significant fruit of Nostra Aetate. That's a document of Vatican II that at precisely the moment was most needed. Okay, a couple things. [00:17:56] You don't have to support the Jewish state to be Catholic. There's nothing in Catholicism says you have to support the Jewish state any more than you have to support the Islamic states of Saudi Arabia or Iran. If you're a Catholic and you think the government of Iran is horrible, awful because of it is, that's fine. You don't have to defend it. You don't have to support its legitimacy. [00:18:23] The same is true, though, of Israel as a Catholic. You don't have to support its legitimacy that it has to exist. For all time. And it's somehow God's creation or something like that. It's not a requirement. You can, you can support the legitimacy of both those governments, frankly, as a Catholic, but you can't, you can't just say that, that something's wrong with, with somebody who says, yeah, I don't like, think the, the Jewish state Israel, modern state Israel is somehow, you know, given to us from high by God. [00:18:55] Okay, so it, again, it goes on, you know, it just says over and over again, in short, a new form of Catholic anti Judaism is emerging. Political in appearance, theological in substance. Actually, I don't care about the politics as much as I do the theological and I think it should be theological in substance. This is all the more alarming giving the long history of supersessionism and anti Judaism amongst Catholics. [00:19:18] I mean, it's like it's saying, yeah, Catholics have always understood a certain way and now we want them to understand completely differently. That's not how Catholicism works. But then it does the whole, it does the move. I really don't have a respect for this. It does a move of basically it does this a few times in the document of saying, if somehow you are not supportive of their reading of the, the modern reading of Catholic Jewish relations, you're basically leading to another Holocaust. That's one step towards it. You're supporting that because it says, you know, this, this supersessionism contributed to the climate that made the Shoah possible and whose early warning signs when they appear in a new register must not be ignored or minimized. This is the, this is the standard thing that, that, that you will hear any type of criticism of Judaism, any type of criticism of any Jew, any type criticism. Israel is basically the first step towards a holocaust for calling for and that secretly you really want a holocaust. That's nonsense. As Catholics, we have to kind of thread this needle. [00:20:24] We have to make sure we always maintain Christian charity, always maintain Catholic charity towards our, you know, Jewish people, towards Muslims, towards everybody. At the same time, while stating the false beliefs that they have or, or whatever the case may be that they need to come to Christ and to criticize them when they do something wrong. [00:20:45] Okay, so it continues. I'm not, like I said, there's a lot here and I'm not going to cover all of it. I just want to cover kind of some of the high points. [00:20:55] It, it states, for example, the Jewish people's enduring covenantal identity cannot be divorced in the land that scripture from Genesis to Revelation presents as integral to it. [00:21:05] False. That is not true. [00:21:07] It is not true that Genesis to Revelation presents, is integral to it. [00:21:13] If you look at the New Testament, the land does not matter anymore. [00:21:17] The land does not matter anymore with the coming of Christ. Christ is the new Israel. He is the land. He is the temple, he is the covenant. [00:21:28] And so as, as Christ says to the Samaritan woman at the well, we don't worship at a certain temple anymore. The location does not matter anymore of where we worship God. We worship him in spirit and truth, anywhere and everywhere that, that he is present in the Blessed Sacrament. [00:21:46] If it really mattered, if the land really mattered, the land of Israel really mattered in the New Covenant, then the Pope would have been established in Jerusalem, not Rome. [00:21:56] If the land really mattered, then they would have set up, the Papacy would have been set up in Jerusalem, not Rome. But that's not what happened. It went to Rome because Rome represented universalism. It represented that all the world was part of this new church and it was not any more tied into a specific land. So to say that the land matters from Genesis to Revelation is simply false. And I'm going to note in a moment here some, some more details about that, but just for now, I just. It's. It's a misunderstanding, a deep misunderstanding throughout the document. All the statement. Also, they confuse modern Israel with Israel. This is a sleight of hand that often Catholic Zionists will do. [00:22:39] I'm not even saying they're doing this like deceptively. I'm just saying this is some. A confusion they have in their own mind that leads them to this sleight of hand, which is they equate any statement about Israel in the Bible with 1948 modern Israel. So if God says something about Israel in the Old Testament to Abraham or whoever, or if Israel is mentioned by St. Paul and Romans, they then equate that with the 1948 modern state of Israel. [00:23:06] But that's the problem. It's not the same thing. It's simply not the same thing. Israel now is the Church. [00:23:14] We are the new Israel. [00:23:18] Okay? And then it says, although the New Covenant fulfills, deepens and universalizes God's promises to Israel and the Church. First of all, starting that with an although, that's kind of like a definitive statement. [00:23:30] The New Covenant fulfills, deepens and universalizes God's promises to Israel in the Church, period. [00:23:36] There's no although before, but he says although it does not erase or cancel God's particular calling to the Jewish people. [00:23:44] Well, then why did. If this is true, if it did not, if The New Covenant did not erase or cancel God's particular calling to the Jewish people. [00:23:53] Why did the first Christians try to get Jews to convert? [00:23:56] Why did St. Peter in his Pentecost homily, They're going to celebrate Pentecost here in a few days. [00:24:03] His Pentecost homily. Why did St. Peter call the Jews to conversion to Christ? Why did St. Paul go to the synagogues first whenever he traveled to a new town to convert to Jew, to convert Jews? Why do that? If the New Covenant did not cancel or erase the, the, the particular calling to the Jewish people? [00:24:23] Why, why, why not? Why would they not just go straight to the Gentiles? Why even bother with trying to convert Jews, which they did Also, I think the other problem with this is I think again, we are forgetting the, the importance of the destruction of Israel in 70 AD and the fact that Christ predicted this in his Olivet discourse. Mount Olivet discourse in Matthew 24 and 25. [00:24:54] It's a explicit prediction of the destruction of Israel. And it talks about the destruction, I'm sorry, destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple. It talks about this being the end of an age, the Book of Revelation. I don't have time in this podcast to go super in detail. I do want to make a podcast in the future that goes into these, these prophecies and in the Book of Revelation about the destruction of Jerusalem and things like that. But suffice it to say the Book of Revelation has many also prophecies of this. The Book of Daniel in the Old Testament, we see this, that the destruction of Jerusalem, the destruction of the Temple is part of the process of the New Covenant replacing the Old Covenant. [00:25:38] Because when, when Christ talks about this being the end of an age, it is the end of an era. It's like the end of the world is what he's talking, what it sounds like. He's not talking about the end of the world, the second Coming. He. There's other aspects of that in other places. In the Gospels, in, in the New Testament, he's talking about the end of the world, the Jewish world, the Old Covenant world. This is where it definitively ends in 70 AD with the destruction temple. In fact, if you look at the prophecies, like I said, I'm not going to go in detail here, but if you look at the prophecies, the Roman army is basically seen as the avenging arm of God. It is seen as God himself acting. We see this in the Old Testament. This happens multiple times where a pagan arm represents God's action in the world. [00:26:23] And it's true here too. The Roman pagan army in 70 AD destroying the temple, destroying Jerusalem. It represents the, the will of God to end the old covenant and now have a new covenant. I'm not saying the Jewish people have no role in the world after this. I've talked about this before. [00:26:42] But the point is, is that this makes it like it basically is dual covenant. It's basically the idea that the Jewish people can. Are still under their covenant and still binding towards them. No, it's not. The new covenant is what's binding on every human being, whether they be Gentile, Jew, Muslim, Buddhist, atheist, whatever. The new covenant is what is binding, not the old covenant. [00:27:06] And I think we need to recognize how the destruction of the temple in 70 AD, like this is something. I'm not making this stuff up, by the way. This is what the church fathers talked about. This is what, you know, in the medieval times, I mean, they even admit that this is what Catholics have believed for 2000 years. [00:27:23] That was the destruction of Temple in 70 A.D. we really do see the end of, the definitive end of the old covenant. Obviously ended with Christ coming, his resurrection. But this was kind of the, the physical manifestation of that. [00:27:37] Then it goes on, the statement goes on to say, building on scripture and in wake of the horrors of the Showah, always you got, we gotta bring up the Holocaust. Basically saying the Holocaust caused a revision of Catholic doctrine. That is not possible. [00:27:50] The Second Vatican Council's declaration, Nostra Atate laid the foundation for a renewed Catholic theology of Israel and the Jewish people. It. What they really mean is a changed Catholic theology. [00:28:04] A change Catholic theology is what they're talking about, which we can't have a change Catholic doctrine. We can have development of doctrine, but they're not saying this is development. They're explicitly stating this is different than what was believed before. And this is not something that is possible. [00:28:19] And it says, since Nostra Aetate, the Church has continued to develop this positive theology of Judaism. [00:28:27] What does this even mean, positive theology of Judaism? Judaism is not the religion God wants you to be in. He wants you to be in Catholicism. [00:28:36] So what do we mean by positive theology? I don't understand. I mean, that really does sound like, okay, if you're Jewish, you don't have to do anything to be saved. In fact, what you need to do is stay Jewish. You should not become Catholic. I mean, I don't know how you interpret this in another way. [00:28:51] And it goes on to this light of basically just saying that now the Church sees Judaism as fine. Whereas before it didn't. It can't do that. Like I said, it can change. [00:29:03] It can emphasize how it how Catholics should treat Jews. [00:29:08] And it might say yes, in the past we have done things that have led to anti Semitic actions which are not good and we condemn. That's fine, that's good in fact to do that. [00:29:21] But this is not the same as as changing theology. This is actually the same thing I talk about in my book Deadly Indifference. I detail more there the ecumenism problems. But what's happened is in the night starting in the 1960s really we had shift of emphasis where and how with non Catholics basically dialogue with them never can we never see wrong with their we only emphasize, we share and emphasize to be nice ever real anything that might be comfortable or to them that there's nothing heretical about that. [00:30:06] I think it's prudentially a bad call and I, and I explain why in my book. [00:30:12] But that's not heretical what it does though. And so when the church does this at Vatican 2, it doesn't mean oh the Vatican II is heretical. [00:30:19] What it does though is it leads to people having heretical beliefs. It's why 70% of Catholics, I think it is in America at least think that one can be saved by practicing a religion other than Catholicism. And that's simply, that's heresy. [00:30:38] And so what we're seeing here with Judaism the same thing is yes, the church I think wisely in some ways said okay, we need to make sure our relationship with the Jews are such that people aren't doing things like trying to kill them or blaming them for all the problems of the world or nonsense like that. [00:30:56] However it goes so far, it's gone so far and I think it's a lot of it because everybody's terrified that they'll be accused of bringing about the next Holocaust. I think somebody in the comments I didn't look at too carefully has already called me a Nazi. [00:31:10] Everybody's terrified of that. And so we have to be uber apologetic and just say okay, we won't say anything ever is wrong with Judaism. We're never going to call them to repentance. We're never going to call anybody, anybody non Catholic to become Catholic or anything like that. [00:31:24] And that what that leads to is this heretical view that these other religions can save you. Which I honestly think this, I mean when I read this, that's what it sounds like to me is they're saying a Judaism today saves and it doesn't. That's not Catholic Teaching. [00:31:41] Okay, so let me go on. I'm going to skip that part. It also talks about when evaluating Israel's conflict with adversaries, Catholics must apply the principles of just war. [00:31:52] And it emphasizes everybody, what everybody's doing against Israel. But I would argue that Israel, the state of Israel, has engaged in many behaviors that violate just war theory. So let's apply it in both cases, why don't we? [00:32:07] And it says, it goes on to define Zionism. It says in its basic sense, Zionism is simply the national movement for the return of the Jewish people to their homeland and the resumption of Jewish sovereignty in the land of Israel. That's fine. [00:32:22] I mean, it's not like it's against Catholicism, the Zionist movement, the idea that Jews, they, they, they, they want a homeland and they want to be in Israel. [00:32:32] If they can accomplish that while not violating just war principles, moral principles, fine, that's. You can do that. You don't have to support it. You can support it though. That's fine. [00:32:47] The problem though is, and here's where we get heresy, it says Christian Zionism more specifically grounds that support in Scripture in the conviction that the Jewish people's return to the land cannot be entirely separated from the biblical promises beginning with God's covenant with Abraham and that the work of divine providence may be discerned. It. This is where I would say, I mean, I would say that's heresy. I'm just a layman, the webcam. I'm obviously not declaring this as some, you know, I don't have the authority to declare this like their heretics or any of that. But I would just say the idea that the modern state of Israel, the Zionist movement, has a feel a Christian theological backing. I think that is heresy. You see this in dispensationalist Protestantism, which in a statement they try to distance themselves from with. But I'm sorry, you, you made your bed with them, you need to lie down with them. [00:33:40] And the fact is, is that Zionism is political movement. You can be for or against, but trying to act like there's a theological connection that God himself desires this. [00:33:52] I think that's no more true than Muslims who think that they're, that they think that Allah desires the establishment of the Islamic Republic of Iran or Saudi Arabia or, or anything they've done in the past. [00:34:07] God did not desire the establishment of these Islamic countries, nor does it, nor does he desire the establishment of Israel. [00:34:16] He's not, I'm not saying he's against it either. I mean, I think he's against the Islamic ones, probably, but. And he's against a lot of things the state of Israel does. But the point is, is that it's a political, human activity and it's not. It's not part of Scripture. It's not part of divine providence. [00:34:33] Okay, okay. And then it says what Catholic Zionism does claim is more modest and more profound, that the modern state of Israel, like the nation of Israel in the Bible, is simultaneously a manifestation of God's faithfulness and a human fallible, morally accountable policy. This is the fundamental error, that it's equating the modern state of Israel with the nation of Israel in the Bible. They're simply not. They're not. They're not the same thing. They. They have no real relationship. [00:35:04] And it says you can't reduce Israel to a merely secular state with no theological significance. No, that's exactly what it is. It is a secular state with no theological significance. I mean, secular. It's a Jewish state. I'm not going to say it's secular in the sense they're not religious, just like Iran isn't a secular state. [00:35:22] Like, you know, maybe England is, or France is, unfortunately, or America is, but is a. [00:35:28] Is a state with no theological significance. From a Catholic perspective, I don't understand how you can't say that. Why you wouldn't say that because we're not Jews. We're Christians. We believe in the New Covenant. It just, it seems obvious to me. [00:35:45] Okay. It says like, you know, on the basis of the biblical, theological, political and moral principles set forth above, we, the undersigned Catholics, make the following affirmations and commitments. One is, we reject the new supersessionism promoted by certain Catholic theologians, apologists and commentators as contrary to Scripture in the Church's teaching. The Church does not replace or erase Israel. She participates in Israel's election and calling. But I think it's funny how it says the new supersessionism them. It's acknowledging the old one, which existed for 1900 years. [00:36:16] And all the new one is doing is simply calling back to that. It's main. It's keeping to the traditions. [00:36:22] The Church does replace Israel. It is the new Israel. [00:36:26] There is a place for the. The Jewish people after. I mean, Augustine and Aquinas talk about this after the coming of Christ, after the destruction of the temple. But it's not as a salvific means for the people who are part of it. Only the only in the church is their salvation. [00:36:44] It says, we reject the use of theology to delegitimize or erase the Jewish people's covenant, no identity, or to sever that identity from the land that Scripture consistently presents as integral to it. [00:36:54] You know, you rejected, you say, I'm rejecting your use of theology. [00:36:58] Honestly, I'm rejecting your use of theology to try to create a, a defense of this land as somehow God's providence that that modern day Jews should possess. [00:37:14] Says we affirm that Catholic theological discourse must never again become a seedbed for anti Semitism, including anti Semitism operating under the guise of anti Zionism. It's basically saying pre Vatican ii, Catholicism was a seed bed for anti Semitism. Now, I'm not one who claims there was no anti. Semitism. There's plenty of anti Semitism in history. [00:37:36] I think that's very true and I reject it. I think it should be rejected. [00:37:41] The problem is when you blame Catholic theology for it, when you blame Catholic doctrine, you want to change Catholic doctrine in light of that. That's what the problem is. [00:37:51] The problem of anti Semitism is people abusing and twisting legitimate Catholic theology to do things that are sinful. But we do that with a lot of different types of Catholic theology. [00:38:03] And so it's not like we change those theology. [00:38:07] I mean, if somebody, if some husband abuses his wife, we don't say, well, we have to change what the church teaches about the, the woman submitting to the husband. Although that's exactly what's happened in many quarters. No, we reject the man who's abused that and twisted that theology for his own sinful purposes. Likewise, we do that for anti Semites. We don't read, we don't change Catholic theology because some people have twisted it for their sinful ideas. [00:38:38] We, we confirm the, the truth of it while also explaining it more fully. [00:38:45] But basically it's saying that, you know, anti Semitism operating under the guise of anti Zionism. It's basically saying you're an anti Semite if you're not with the Zionist program. [00:38:59] I mean, that's, there's no other way you can really read that. So they're saying I'm an anti Semite. [00:39:03] Okay, I'm not. I know I'm not. I don't have, I don't lose any sleep thinking I might be an anti Semite because some people who are theologically confused think that. [00:39:14] But this is a way that you silence debate, use a silence discussion. You, you want people to shut up. Because if you name call, the good news is this doesn't work anymore very well. It did used to work. I know very well it worked on Me. And it's worked in the past. It doesn't work anymore. [00:39:31] And then also it talks about. We reject the framing of hostility towards Israel as a Catholic moral imperative. [00:39:37] In particular, we reject the casual and politically motivated application of terms like genocide and ethnic cleansing to Israeli military operations. [00:39:48] Okay, I will just say this. I do think Israel has committed genocide and ethnic cleansing in Gaza. I don't say that casually. In fact, I resisted saying that for a long time. I did not want to say that when I first heard people talking about that. First, I knew it just got people riled up and you had a hard time having a discussion with them. Secondly, I didn't think there was enough proof of it. But the reality is lots and lots of people have come to the conclusion that what they did in Gaza is ethnic cleansing. It is. It is genocide. [00:40:17] And it's, it's not casual and politically motivated. It's just, it's just a reality on the ground and lots of people are seeing it and so trying to dismiss it like it's not. [00:40:26] I think that's a real moral problem. [00:40:30] There's finally near the end. Okay, I think this is the last thing. Let me see. Is there anything else? Yeah, the last thing I'll comment on this. [00:40:37] Fidelity to the Gospel calls Catholics to repent of every form of supersessionalism. In other words, repent of what Catholic teaching has been for 2000 years. [00:40:46] Every form of supersessionism anti Judaism and anti Semitism, including the subtler forms that have found a new home in the anti Zionist discourse. [00:40:55] Basically, this is how you classify any criticism of Israel's anti Semitism. The subtler forms. What it's, it's saying that what I'm doing, for example, I bet you would say what I'm doing is a subtler form of anti Semitism. It's, it's just, it's name calling. [00:41:10] It's name calling. And the fact is, is one of the reasons why actual anti SEM. Well, first of all, two things have arisen. Anti Israeli sentiment has greatly, greatly increased in America. [00:41:25] And people act like that's just simply because, just magically anti Semitism came out of nowhere. [00:41:30] No, it's because of the actions of Israel, particularly since October, after October 7th. [00:41:36] People were very sympathetic to Israel on October 7th, and rightly so. [00:41:41] And so the idea, the fact that anti Israeli sentiment has grown since then, it tells you how bad Israel has been. [00:41:50] It tells you how much people have rejected that. [00:41:54] And also though the, the other problem is, is that the response to anybody who has criticized Israel from day one. Has been you're an anti Semite. You know, the Mark Levine's out there, the Ben Shapiro's who just scream anti Semitism at any slight criticism. You know what that does? It gets people more against Israel and it does form some actual anti Semites. Like I said, I'm not one of these people who act like they don't exist. They do exist. [00:42:20] But all you're doing with statements like this is you're just adding to it. You're making it more likely that you were going to have anti Semites. [00:42:28] So, okay, that I think I'm done going through this document. Like I said, I'll link to in the show notes. I have a link in the live chat. So go ahead and check it out on your own. [00:42:39] I think though, going forward, what do we have to do? I think first of all, we need to stop equating criticism with anti Semitism. I mean, they're basically doing that in there. They're saying subtler forms of anti Semitism, it leads anti Semitism. They're basically saying anybody who criticizes Israel is an anti Semite. And that's just simply we have to reject that. [00:42:57] We need to stop caring if we're called anti Semitic. [00:43:00] We need to be willing to speak out against the atrocities committed by Israel. And the atrocities come in by Iran and everybody and all the other countries in the world. The atrocities come in by America. Frankly, I'm not saying they're all equal. I'm not saying that, that every single country is equal in the atrocities it commits. I am saying, though, each one is open, open to criticism. And just because one might be worse doesn't mean you can't criticize another one. [00:43:24] We also, we need to be very clear. And this is the thing I think is most important is we need to be very clear. That is only one way to salvation. There's only one covenant in effect, and that is a covenant in Jesus Christ, the new covenant, the new Israel. [00:43:37] Only in Jesus Christ can anybody be saved. [00:43:40] Also, I think we have to embrace the totality of tradition. We need to read Vatican II in light of tradition, not the other way around. [00:43:50] This presumption that somehow after the Holocaust and because of Vatican II, we can change our theology. [00:43:59] That's a, that, like I said, it's the same presuppositions, the same assumptions that are behind, like changing our teaching on birth control, artificial birth control, you know, homosexuality, all of that. [00:44:12] And it's simply not the case. It's a, it's abuse of the idea of development of doctrine. You particularly see this when they're, I mean, they're not even trying to act like this is development because they're saying it's a, it's a switch. It's a, it's a change from what was before. What was before was bad. It led to awful things. It basically is the cause of Hitler now. We don't do that anymore. We have a whole new doctrine. No, we have no new doctrines in the church. We have a deeper understanding of them, yes, but not whole new ones. [00:44:38] And also another thing that we should think of going forward is the dangers of ecumenism and irreligious dialogue. I've beat on this drum a million times, written a book about it, but I really do think this is a problem that we just were not willing to stand up and say the Catholic Church is the one true faith outside of which no one can be saved. That is Catholic teaching and we need to stop being afraid to say that. And lastly, we need to pray for the conversion of all Jews to Christ. [00:45:07] All Muslims to Christ, all atheists Christ, all Buddhists, Christ, all Protestants to Catholicism. We need, we need to do this and be serious about it. This is what we are doing them no favors when we do not call them the Christ. In fact, we're not showing them charity when we, when we refuse to call them to Christ. So, okay, let's look at the live chat here. I think that's it for now. This is why we need a ballroom, is what we need a ballroom. [00:45:35] I don't even get that. I do get the ballroom reference, but okay, the dangerous Catholic says anti Semitism really is anti Satanism. [00:45:46] No, okay, I, I, it took me a second to understand that. No, because you're basically saying Semites are Satan. No, I disagree with that. Anti Semitism is satanic. Actually, I had to think about that for a second. [00:46:00] Brian says, I love Israel. I pray for them to convert to one true faith. That is how you love Israel. God bless you, Brian. It's exactly how you, you love Israel. You pray for them to convert to the one true faith. [00:46:11] Jack Gordon says replace the genocide state on the Eastern Mediterranean with the Palestinian state that makes all citizens equal for law. I'm not one who acts like Palestinian state would be a utopia either. I do, I do support the two state solution like the Vatican does and many others have. I do think that would probably be the best solution. [00:46:30] I think Israel has done a lot of terrible things, but I think if there was a Palestinian state, I wouldn't Trust them to all of a sudden be, you know, all roses and utopia or anything like that. [00:46:40] Ryan says the citizens of Israel are not even real Semites. They're European Jews. I mean, you know, I know people, they get into this whole like anti Semitism. There's a lot more Semites aren't exactly Jews. We know what we mean by anti Semitism. We mean anti Jews. [00:46:54] Yes, the, the citizen of Israel. He is right, by the way, that they are European Jews. It's likely that the, the Palestinians are actually the, the more the. The physical descendants of the Jews of the whole. In the Holy Land from thousands of years ago. That being said, I think you can get down some real bad rabbit holes with that type of thinking because I would say that obviously the Jewish people, the people who are Jewish in their religion, they are the descendants of the religious. Descendants of the Jews of the Old Covenant. I. They've. The religions changed radically since then. [00:47:33] So. Yeah, okay. Nick from Detroit says that Cantu did not change the church's teaching on Jewish people. It made it clear. I mean. Okay, what do you mean by that? I mean, because that's not what they're saying in the stock in the statement. Because what they were saying in the statement was basically, it has changed. [00:47:50] It has changed. And I would, I would reject the idea that it has changed. So. Okay, thank you everybody for making the comments again. Pray for the conversion of all people, Catholicism, including the Jewish people. Pray for peace in the Middle East. I mean, beg God for peace in the Middle east, that America would get out of there, that we'd have peace. It's a mess. We all know that. [00:48:13] Okay, everybody, until next time. God love you. And remember the poor.