The State of Traditionalism Under Pope Leo

[00:00:02] Under Pope Benedict, relations between traditional Catholics and the Vatican were friendly. Under Pope Francis, they were openly hostile. [00:00:09] What is the state of that relationship under Pope Leo? [00:00:30] So today I want to talk about the relationship between traditional Catholics in the Vatican. Basically the state of traditionalism under Pope Leo. [00:00:39] Now, the truth is, over the past, well, ever since Vatican ii, really, it's been quite a roller coaster when it comes to that relationship. [00:00:48] I think under Paul vi, probably the number one thing that that was true about the relationship was shock from the traditionalist side. I mean, they didn't change any. [00:01:01] And all of a sudden now they have this difficult relationship with the Pope. And I think they didn't really know what to do with that. All of a sudden all these things are being implemented that are new, that are. They're removing so many of the traditions of the church. And Paul VI seems to be completely fine with it. [00:01:21] And so first of all, a lot of traditionalists went underground. A lot of traditional Catholics, honestly, they just stopped being traditional Catholics in a sense. [00:01:30] It's kind of hard to explain, but like my, my father in law, for example, I don't think he never would call himself a traditional Catholic. But growing up, he loved the old Mass and when they changed the Mass, he didn't like it. He didn't go on a campaign, he didn't do anything like that. He just simply didn't like it. And so he tried to go to the most traditional parish nearby. If all of a sudden his parish started going to the new Mass, you know, this is before the official everybody going to new Mass in 1970, if they started doing new stuff, he'd just go to another parish. It didn't. Finally, though, it's like there's nothing available and he didn't know that there was any other options. So he just started going Novus Ordo. Never really liked it, but just kind of accepted that. I think that's what happened to most people, most Catholics who stayed in the church who didn't leave. [00:02:15] But under Vatican ii, the people who consider themselves traditional Catholics, they really had a very difficult relationship with him. They had to go underground. Of course, that's when the Society of St. Pius X began with Archbishop Lefebvre. [00:02:30] And so it was a difficult time to be a traditional Catholic Then under JP2, obviously JP1 was only there for a month. Under JP2, it was a rocky relationship between traditional Catholics and Pope John Paul ii. On the one hand, John Paul was definitely more orthodox in his proclamation than Paul vi. He was more conservative, I think is probably a Better term. [00:03:01] And so he's more friendly in some ways. But yet this is also a time when he did the prayer meeting in Assisi in 1986, which scandalized many, basically all traditional Catholics, especially Archbishop Lefebvre and the Society. This is when Archbishop Lefebvre consecrated the bishops without permission and was excommunicated by John, John Paul ii. [00:03:26] And really. [00:03:28] But yet also this is the time, this is the Pope, John Paul II, he established the Fraternity of St. Peter. In response, he opened up the celebration of the Latin Mass. I mean, under Paul vi it basically was de facto that you were not allowed to celebrate the traditional Latin Mass. [00:03:44] And then under JP2 it was broadened. More people were allowed, it took a while, but more people were allowed, more priests were allowed to save the Latin Mass. There weren't as many rules. So that's under John Paul ii. Then you have Benedict xvi. [00:03:58] Now this is the best of all the post Vatican II popes as far as his relationship with traditionalists. [00:04:05] He lifted the excommunications of the Society of St. Pius X Bishops. He issues some more pontificum which really liberalized how much the Latin Mass could be said. [00:04:18] And he generally though was much more, he's much more traditional leaning than JP2 and Paul VI. Now it's very important though he was not a traditionalist. I mean, he definitely had a Vatican II kind of mindset. Benedict XVI did. But there's no question that things were looking up for traditionalists under Benedict xvi, that most traditionalists welcomed him and were very happy under him because he allowed, like I said, the proliferation of the Latin Mass. And he just seemed to be very comfortable with the idea of the traditional Latin Mass being said in more places and really traditionalists having a seat at the table, so to speak, in the Church. [00:05:04] Then of course we have Pope Francis. In 2013, he becomes the Pope. And I mean, I don't know how else you can say it, but there is an all out war now between traditionalists and the Pope, between traditional Catholics in the Vatican. I mean, it was very clear Pope Francis hated traditionalists. He considered them the enemy. He thought they were the real problem in the Church. [00:05:30] And honestly the feeling became mutual that most traditionalists felt the same about him that he felt about them. [00:05:37] That really there was an animosity and let's be honest, a hatred between the two, between the Vatican, between Pope Francis and traditionalists. I'm not saying this was a good thing. I'm not saying it was. I'm not even saying whose fault it was. I'm just simply saying that was the reality, that there was open warfare now between traditional Catholics and the papacy and the pontificate of Francis. [00:06:00] Now, I go through this little quick history for a reason, because it's, like I said, it's been a roller coaster for traditional Catholics in their relationship with the Vatican over the past 50 years. [00:06:13] This is not good. This is not the way it should be. [00:06:18] Pope should not have new popes, should not radically have different agendas than the previous Pope. The whole point of a papacy, of the Pope, is to basically receive what's been handed on to you and then transmit it to the next generation. [00:06:40] They're supposed to be the steady hand on the bark of St. Peter. The Pope is supposed to be a steady hand. There shouldn't be these wild shifts from one Pope to another. [00:06:50] It shouldn't really be a situation where you don't know when a Pope is elected, okay, what's he going to think about important issues? It should just be like, he's going to think about the same thing everybody else thinks about it. [00:07:04] Every other Pope has thought about it, but that's not the way it is. And so, honestly, I just think that we need to recognize Catholics who blame traditionalists for our poor relationship with the Vatican. [00:07:21] Honestly, I think that's very unfair because traditions don't even know what they're getting with the next Pope. They're like, okay, are we allowed to do this? Are we allowed to do that? Or can we. Can we believe this and practice this? Or is it going to be condemned by the Vatican? We don't even know what to expect. And this is exactly what happened when Pope Leo was elected last May. [00:07:41] Everybody's speculating, what's it mean? [00:07:43] All traditionalists were speculating, what's it mean for the traditional Latin Mass, for traditionalism in general? [00:07:49] Because we just didn't know. [00:07:51] Now, of course, the speculation has some info. You know, some. [00:07:56] It's not just total guesswork. I guess what I'm trying to say. We know we knew stuff about the history of Robert Prevost, and so we could make some guesses. But the point is, it shouldn't even be a case where people are wondering about basic things like, can we say this Mass or not based upon who the Pope is? Can we. Can we embrace and publicly embrace these practices? Are we going to have to hide our bulletin announcements about Masses that have been said like Mass has been said for thousands of years? It's just. It's crazy. [00:08:29] We just simply don't know what to expect. We don't know what to expect with each Pope. And so I think it's, I just want to lay that out there when I, when I talk about the current relationship between the papacy and traditional Catholics. That it really is, has been a difficult time and it's been a roller coaster, like I've said already. [00:08:50] So what is going on under Pope Leo? So we've seen this history, this up and down. [00:08:55] You know, probably the high point was Pope Benedict. The low point was Francis. JP2 was probably better than, was better than Francis and probably better than Paul vi, Paul vi, probably better than Francis and not as good as Benedict. I mean, all this craziness. So what about under Pope Leo? What I want to do is I want to talk about, first of all, just kind of how some prominent American traditionalists. Well, Kennedy Hall's thrown in there, too, and he's Canadian, but we kind of consider him a honorary American, although he probably doesn't want to be considered honorary American. [00:09:24] But the point is, how have they reacted to the Pontifico Pope Leo and then talk about what Pope Leo's done on his, on his end. Now, first, I just want to start with myself and with Crisis magazine. I don't claim to be a, a number one traditionalist, like a leader, a traditional movement. I, you know, in fact, a lot of traditionalists kind of consider me not fully traditionalist. Like I'm more of a, of a semi trad, whatever, but just kind of my own. [00:09:54] What I've done, my reaction, I was kind of going through the Crisis website since Leo has been. How many, how many articles were tagged Pope Leo XIV? And I found there's been 24 since he was elected. And of course, a lot were very early on, and they've been mostly neutral to positive. There's been very few that have been critical, really critical of Pope Leo. [00:10:16] Now, this is in contrast to Under Pope Francis, there were 383 articles tagged Pope Francis. But to be honest, that's about the same rate as Leo because it's about 31 a year. And if there's been 24 for Leo and he hasn't been there a year. So it's, it's not like we're writing about Pope Leo more or less at Crisis, but there's no question the tone has changed. I mean, I, I would be lying if I tried and nobody believed me, if I acted like it didn't. I mean, I started in 2001 at Crisis, and there's no question, if you look at the articles that refer to Pope Francis during my time, they have been mostly negative. Not all negative, but mostly negative. I myself wrote a few positive things about him. Whereas under Pope Leo, it's been much, much different tone. A much different tone. [00:11:08] I did have a podcast last October about Pope Leo being disappointed in Pope Leo. I think it was just called Disappointed in Poplio or something like that. And it's one of my most popular podcast episodes from 2025, which I think is interesting. And I think this is something we all know, that negative negativity sells better than positivity when it comes to clicks on the Internet. And so that's probably not that surprising. It actually was even more popular, had more views than my video. I did the day of the election, when I was with Tim Flanders and Kennedy hall talking about his election, which of course was a pretty popular podcast because he had just been elected. [00:11:48] I'm actually going to have an article later this week that I wrote that's critical of Pope Leo about something. So it's not that we're like a crisis. We refuse to criticize Pope Leo. We just simply are not doing it anywhere near as often as we did with Francis. And I think personally that's warranted. I think, first of all, he's early on. You give him benefit of doubt. Secondly, he hasn't done the things that Pope Francis did. [00:12:10] So overall, though, I'd say crisis. We've had a wait and see approach, give him the benefit of doubt, have a generally positive outlook about him and not. And not bring every single thing up that he does that we don't agree with. [00:12:25] So how about other prominent traditionalists? So let me just look at our sister publication, 1P or 5 Tim Flanders note. Of course, we are sister publications, so I'm talking about kind of in house here still, but over there, Tim Flanders. I think he's even been less critical than I have been about Pope Leo. [00:12:43] He's been mostly focused on at 1 Pier 5, building up traditional Catholic culture and helping people live traditional Catholic lives. And less about, okay, what did Pope Leo do this week or that week? And generally, when you hear Tim talk, like on my podcast, on his own and other places, excuse me. He's been relatively positive about Pope Leo and about what about his own thoughts. And I think he's had a very similar approach to mine when it comes to. And it's not that surprising because Tim and I see things very similarly. We joke about this when we talk that we didn't know when he took over 1 Peter 5 and we were going to be working together. [00:13:26] We didn't actually know at that time how much we were compatible in our thought, in the way we looked at things and how we did things. But anyway, so 1 Peter 5 has been relatively positive as well. [00:13:39] How about Pelican plus, which Tim Flanders also associated with, but we have Peter Kwasniski, we have Kennedy hall and some others over at Pelican Plus. [00:13:48] Well, I feel like that's been similar to crisis in 1 Peter 5 in that it's been critical of Leo at times, but generally it's talking about other things. It too, is talking about how to build up traditional Catholic life, how to live as a Catholic. I mean, there's been stuff like Peter Kwasnowski, Kennedy hall have written articles that clearly were more negative towards Pope Leo and podcasts and things of that nature. [00:14:13] But that's not been the focus. I mean, you know how, you know what I'm talking about in the Francis days. [00:14:18] 1 Peter 5 for example, under Steve Schocheck, Crisis magazine under me, Kennedy Hall's podcast, Taylor Marshall, who I talked about about in a second, his podcast. [00:14:30] There was a real life site news. There was a real theme of let's, let's just see how bad, you know, let's, let's compete to see who can see how bad Pope Francis is. I mean, that's kind of what, what had occurred. And again, I'm not blaming my friends and they're all my friends who these people I've mentioned so far. I have great respect for all of them. I'm not, or myself even. [00:14:55] I'm not, I'm a little harder on myself, to be honest. I think I was a little too harsh at times about Pope Francis and said some things I didn't need to say. I don't, I'm not saying that about other people, though. But the point is that was kind of what, what we all ended up with. And I think we all felt it was necessary because we have a pope who's doing such a terrible job under Pope Francis that we need, we felt like we need to help Catholics to understand that, to, to live under that, navigate that crisis. And I so I still think that when I'm hard on myself for things I said in the past about Pope Francis. Don' Wrong. I'm not all of a sudden becoming a pope explainer and act like Francis was a good pope. No, he was a terrible pope. [00:15:33] One of the worst we've ever had. I don't think he was the worst, but I do think he was probably top 10 worst. So I'm not saying that that's changed. I'm just saying the constant criticism. [00:15:45] And so, you know, Pelican plus is definitely taking a much more positive route, just about relating to the faith, the traditional Catholic faith, with sometimes criticizing Pope Leo. I imagine when or if Pope Leo cracks down the SSPX with their decision to consecrate new bishops, perhaps then we'll see much more critical stuff against Pope Leo. But how about Taylor? Taylor Marshall? I mean, he had lots and lots of podcasts during the Francis pontificate that were critical of Pope Francis and saying all the things going wrong under him, and he's done that under Leo. Like, he probably talks about Leo more than anybody else I've mentioned so far, like myself or Tim or Peter Kwaznsky or Kennedy or anybody like that. [00:16:31] And so he talks about more. [00:16:33] But that's kind of his podcast. That's his, that's his sweet spot. That's what he's there for. Kind of just to talk a lot of times about Vatican, what's going on at the Vatican. [00:16:42] But I have noticed that, that Taylor's not got the same kind of. [00:16:49] It's not the same. [00:16:51] I don't say the same attitude, but it's just a different feel, different tone than it was under Francis where he's not maybe as quick to be as critical of Leo. And also he's giving him more of the benefit of the doubt, probably for the same reasons. I'm. I'm doing this. [00:17:07] I'm doing the same thing. And then we have Michael Matt as well. I wanted to mention him over at the Remnant. Great guy, I think. I mean, I'm getting a little. Be a little bit repetitive here. But I wanted to mention specifically some people before I talk about some others have a different viewpoint, a different way of approaching it. But Michael Matt, he. He's done the same thing. I feel like he's not constantly criticizing Leo. He's. He's focused on other things. I mean, he's willing to criticize Leo, don't get me wrong. But it's just not the same. The, the repetitive nature of criticism like we had under Francis, that I think honestly, here's the thing. [00:17:40] Not having a new. Do we want to give him doubt? I think a people not just. Just simply tired of the constant repetitive nature. [00:17:51] Every time he did we have to all oh, he did this. This to. [00:17:57] No, I stopped four so in like about months or something before just declare criticizing me anymore publicly because I just felt like we know who he is. It doesn't really Help any. To continue to bring up everything he says that's. That's wrong or dumb or heretical, whatever. [00:18:18] So I. I feel like. So not only did we get do we have a new Pope, and so therefore we should have a different attitude, but we're also like, let's. We're getting tired of this. So I think that's also part of the. The. The equation we're talking about there. [00:18:34] So. Okay. So another thing I want to bring up, though, is some of the people who have had a different attitude about their approach to Pope Francis. And so I don't want to name a whole bunch of names. I'm being more critical. I don't like criticizing people, you know, by name too much. But I will say, like, you know, one person I just want to bring up is like, Chris Jackson. [00:18:55] Chris Jackson. He and I had a friendly relationship for a number of years. And he has definitely taken a different tackle. Let's just say that he's been extremely critical of Leo. He's constantly publishing things that are. That are saying how terrible he is. He's Francis 2.0. Maybe he's worse than him. I mean, he really is obsessed with just reporting every single thing he thinks is wrong with Leo and constantly doing that. [00:19:18] And the truth is he lambasts everybody else I've just mentioned. He calls them all. He lumps us all as tradinc. It's the term he uses basically to say we're all sellouts that were not criticizing Leo. I'll be honest. I'm not 100 sure. Always. It's always clear to me exactly what tradinc is. [00:19:37] And he's not the only one who uses that term. But it basically is the idea that we all sold out, that people like Peter Kwazneski, myself, Taylor Marshall, Tim Flanders, whatever, we all sold out in order. That's the ink part of it, I guess. And so that we wouldn't criticize Leo. I'm not quite sure why we sold out. Like, what was the. I didn't get any financial benefits. I didn't all of a sudden get asked to speak at any diocesan events. And I don't think any of those other men have either. [00:20:05] I'm not exactly sure. But there's this conspiracy of silence supposedly among trad Inc. [00:20:12] Honestly, I always. I just laugh. It's hard to take the accusation seriously because I know what's going on behind the scenes, which is nothing. [00:20:20] Okay, so Tim Flanders. I work with Tim Flanders. I. I'm basically his boss because I'm over both Crisis magazine and 1 Peter 5 I have never told him, like, okay, don't say anything critical about Pope Leo. I've never told him, hey, let's have a different tone with Leo. I said, this is what. He knows what I'm doing. And maybe that influenced him, but I don't think so because he had the same attitude as me. And it's not like we, I direct him, he, he runs. 1 Peter 5 I talk to him maybe once a month or something like that about what's going on. Maybe not even that often. He might be like, no, Eric, I don't talk to you that much at all. [00:20:52] The point is, is there wasn't even a conspiracy between two people who work together under the same umbrella. So you're telling me there's a conspiracy among other people? Like, I don't. I talk to Taylor sometimes, text with them, but it's not that often. I talked to Peter Kwesneski, Kenny hall, maybe a little bit more. [00:21:09] I never talked to Michael, Matt. Not that there's any negative. We just never, we're not in that type of relationship. [00:21:15] And so it's like, we don't talk that much about this stuff. [00:21:19] And when we do, it's never a matter of, okay, here's our plan of attack. Everybody, let's have a united front. Taylor, you're going to say this, and Kennedy, you're going to say that, and Peter, you say this and Eric, you say it. It's like, no, that's not how it works. We just each have our own views and we say what we think. That's essentially all it is. And here's the thing, though, it's true, we all sound pretty similar in our, our tone and our attitude towards Pope Leo. I don't think that's a conspiracy. I think that's just a bunch of people. And maybe this sounds a bit self serving, a bit arrogant, but I think it's just a bunch of mature people who realize it's kind of silly to keep beating the exact same drum under Leo the second he takes the office. [00:22:00] I just don't think there's any point to that. It just doesn't make much sense. [00:22:05] But obviously Chris Jackson disagrees. [00:22:08] Another organization that I think has kind of taken, gone, kept the same way of doing things as under Pope Francis is LifeSite News. LifeSite News, really under John Henry Weston. And John Henry Weston, I think is a great guy. I don't talk to him ever again. I don't have that kind of relation with him. I've Met him and talked to him in the past. I've done an interview with him before. [00:22:30] He comes across as a very holy and. And great guy. I only say he comes across that because I haven't been around him that much. But I was very impressed with him is all I'm trying to say. [00:22:40] But I will say LifeSite News has not gone down the same path as Crisis magazine on this. It has been much more critical. It has run. It has published articles by people who are very, very critical of Pope Leo. And so it's really taking a different. [00:22:58] You know, it's taken a different tack than the others. I just saw Anthony on the chat. Anthony, jump in the chat and tell me what you're doing, because, as you know, I don't actually listen to your podcast. [00:23:10] So put up there, though, what you're doing, like, how much you've been talking about Leo. I wish there was a way I could get you on here real quick, but I don't. [00:23:17] I gotta figure out how to do that sometime in the future to just get you to jump on Anthony. [00:23:23] But anyway, so if. Anthony, if you want to jump on, you know. [00:23:27] Oh, my gosh. Avoiding Babylon. I forgot the name of your podcast, Anthony. I don't actually know what they're doing, so I. I should. I want to bring them up as well, though. [00:23:36] The point is, though, LifeSite News is definitely going a different path than. Than some of the others. They've kind of maintained the same type of reporting and commentary as they did under Francis and kind of seeing Leo as a, you know, a continuation. So. Okay, let me pop up what. What Anthony put here. We've actually taken the approach to not discuss anything in Rome at all. There's nothing we can do about. So I. So I just been living my Catholic. God bless you, Anthony. Okay. I might actually start listening to Avoiding Babylon now. [00:24:08] I might. I might not. But no. So Anthony also avoiding Babylon. And I recommend the podcast. I kid somewhat with him, but the point is, like, he's just, you know, Anthony's like. And I think that's part of what all of us are doing. It's not that. [00:24:26] It's not that we're saying, oh, Pope Leo is the great. The great hope, traditional hope, and all of a sudden he's going to be this great pope or anything like that. And he is. We're just simply not obsessing about what's happening there because like Anthony said, we can't do that much about it, what's going on. So. But now let. Let me Turn it aside, though. Turn around and look at what Pope Leo has done when it comes to traditionalists. Now, here's something I want to say that a lot of traditional Catholics will not like. [00:24:59] I was going to say this later, but I want to say it. This is a reality check. [00:25:04] The Vatican doesn't care that much about traditionalists. [00:25:07] It's just not that interested in traditional concerns. It's not a matter of it hating traditionalists like I think Francis did and maybe some people close to him did. [00:25:19] I think it's a matter more of. It's just simply not on the radar. [00:25:24] These traditions are not. They don't think about when they're deciding, okay, what are we going to do here? What are we going to do here? What's this concern? They're not thinking, oh, what will the traditionalists think about that? Or, hey, what are the traditional concern? We're just simply not on the radar. Yes, we make a lot of noise here in America. We make a lot of noise online. And I think it does represent something real in the church, and I think it shouldn't be ignored. [00:25:49] I think it represents more than they think. [00:25:51] But at the same time, I just think because, especially because of their age, being mostly boomers, maybe older Gen X or something like that, it just isn't something they care about too much. And so they, honestly, I think they just don't know what to do with us. [00:26:07] I think they don't understand us, really. [00:26:10] I mean, Francis definitely didn't understand us. He just believed the stereotypes. [00:26:15] I think Leo is making an actual effort in meeting with Cardinal Burke, meeting with Bishop Schneider and some others. [00:26:24] But my point of this is that even if Leo ends up being more positive like Benedict, let's say, I think it's going to take time because it's just simply not a priority for the Vatican. I think we have to recognize that it's just not a priority. [00:26:39] And so the truth is Leo, I would say, the way I would classify Leo is he's kind of a combination of Benedict and Francis. He's definitely not as good as Benedict, but he's nowhere near as bad as Francis. And I think if you. If I had to say, where is he? Where is he on the spectrum? So if on this side is Leo and on, I'm sorry, is Benedict, and on this side is Francis, I think he. Yes, he's more on the Francis side. I don't think it's like he's right in the middle. I think he went the wrong way. [00:27:06] He leans more towards the Francis side. Don't get me wrong. [00:27:11] And I think, though. Though that the fact is he just hasn't done that much when it comes to traditionalists. He has not seen our concerns as something that is that important, which, you know, disappoints me. I mean, obviously, I wish he would. I wish Pope Leo would elevate the concerns of traditionalists higher in his list of priorities. I mean, look at the consistory that was happened in January, where they punted on the. On the issue of liturgy, basically. If he really wanted that to be the discussion point, it would have been the discussion point. Now they say they're going to do it in maybe back on the menu in June or something like that, but it's just like one of these things where it's like he's not attacking traditionalists like Francis did all the time, but he's also not praising them or really caring that much about them. [00:28:00] And also he's allowing traditional at Masses to be shut down. I mean, we saw it in Charlotte, we've seen it in Detroit, we've seen it in Knoxville. [00:28:09] Here in America, where bishops have gone against traditional at Mass and not a peep was said by the Vatican. They were not. They were not disciplined. They were not, to our knowledge, nothing happened from the Vatican. They were allowed to do this, which sends a message that's not good. Also, we see that Leo's really emphasizing Vatican, too. I mean, he's got a whole. [00:28:31] He has a whole catechesis he's doing now on the documents of Vatican II in his general audiences. And so clearly, Vatican II is still a priority, just like it was for previous popes. I mean, all the popes, post Vatican II popes have been. Vatican II is the most important thing. It is the Council of Councils, every single one of them, from Pope Paul VI to Leo. There's no question the most important council is Vatican 2. Even Ratzinger, Pope Benedict, who at least acknowledged more previous councils a little bit more. He even thought that. So. [00:29:03] And now, of course, we have this whole situation with the sspx. What's Leo going to do with that? Well, I think honestly, the biggest problem there is who's his point man under John Paul ii, Conor Ratzinger was the point man. Now it's Cardinal Fernandez. Now, I know it's because he's got the same position as Ratzinger had as head of the CDF or ddf, whatever it's called now, but Fernandez is a disaster. And the fact that we're now, what are we, nine months in eight months in something like that. And Fernandez is still in charge of doctrine in the Church. [00:29:35] I'll be honest, I'll say it's scandalous. It's not something that I'm very much a fan of. And him being the point man who deals with the SSPX is just a disaster waiting to happen. If Ratzinger was a problem back in the 80s and in the eyes of the Society, I think he was then my goodness, Fernandez, what the heck? [00:29:57] I mean, the guy doesn't really have a Catholic bone in his body, it seems like, at least the way he talks and the way he acts. [00:30:03] And so I think this is a big moment. [00:30:05] I will say I am not on board, like pro sspx, they need to consecrate these bishops. You know, who cares what the Vatican thinks or anything like that? I don't think that's not my position. [00:30:18] In fact, I think the Vatican should allow, should just explicitly say you are allowed to consecrate the bishops and that that should really be the solution. But if they don't say that, which they likely won't, I don't have a strong opinion what I think the Society should do. And they're not calling me to ask me what I think they, I think they should do. Anyway, my point of this is like I'm not strongly pro or anti SSPX in this situation, but I do think though that this is going to be a big moment. How they handle like there are. It's not just a matter of will they allow it or will they not allow it. And that's the only two options. There is a spectrum. [00:30:54] There is a spectrum here of how the Leo Vatican will handle the SSPX in this situation. I think that matters. I do think there's an interesting that basically there was no communication, Harley, between the Vatican and the, the SSPX until they said we're going to consecrate bishops. And all of a sudden now we're going to have a meeting a week later or something like that. I think that's telling and it kind of justifies the Society doing what it did. It's like if you're not going to even answer our, our mail, we're going to have to take it up a notch. [00:31:23] So again, that's going to be a big point. The, the thing is like, I think there's no way you can, you can say Leo is some pro traditionalist Pope. He's obviously not, but I don't also don't think you can call him an anti traditionalist pope. Either. I think it's more just a matter of, eh, you know, that, that, that's something low on the agenda of this pontificate. [00:31:45] And so my own thoughts, though, when it comes to Leo, I've said this before, I'll say it again, is he's actually exactly what I expected of the next vote before he was even elected. When Francis died and they were talking about who the next vote would be, I didn't know who the person would be, but this is exactly what I expected. [00:32:02] A thoroughly modern bishop who is very pro Vatican ii, who is going to basically be in line with Francis, but probably not as extreme as Francis. He won't have the, the awful personality of Francis. I said all this before he was elected and I think Leo is exactly what I thought. So he, you know, he, he. And I also think he truly does want unity in the Church. He would like to see traditionalists kind of reconciled and the society reconciled with the church, with the wider church. [00:32:34] But because of this, because this is what I expected. [00:32:38] This is also why I'm not doing the constant 247 freakout session like some people are doing. I saw where I'm not on X anymore, but I was doing a little research for this. I'm not X much. I post some stuff, but I don't scroll anymore. On X is probably the better way to put it. [00:32:54] And I saw when I was doing some research for this podcast, getting prepared for it was like people were freaking out because there was altar girls at a papal Mass. I think it was the first time maybe this happened since he became Pope. [00:33:06] I was just like, some. Why was this news? Why I'm actually surprised it was this long. [00:33:12] This is just the way alter girls, which I think are an abomination and girls should never be on the altar or women or anything like that. I mean, that's my own personal opinion. But the fact is, is they're just the norm in the Catholic Church today, and the vast majority of Catholics think nothing about it. [00:33:32] Yes, I know for us traditionalists, we don't like it and we have lots of good reasons not to like it. And I think they're very strong reasons. At the same time, it's just, it's not like. [00:33:45] I just can't believe that Leo was like, oh, I want to kind of tweak the traditionalist. I'm gonna have alter girls. I just think it was like, well, there had to be altar girls. Like, okay, he's. I'm sure he served. He's celebrated massive before the altar girls. Whereas I think Francis at times purposely tweaked traditionalists. He purposely wanted to annoy them and bug them. I don't think Leo does that. I think he just does what he does, like he's always done, like every Catholic bishop in the world practically does. [00:34:15] And like all, like literally how, how many fin, how many hands would it take? Probably one hand. You count one hand the number of bishops in the world who would balk at altar girls. [00:34:27] And so the fact that the Pope doesn't either is not really a news story. Not reason, in my opinion, reason to freak out at all. Personally, I am glad the heat's gone down. I'm glad that people that a lot of prominent traditionalists are, are not just banging the drum constantly. I just don't think it's healthy. I don't think we I, I, I, I. Here's another one reason is because I think there's a negative consequence to constant criticism. I came to realize that under Francis and it gets true here, too. [00:34:56] I also think that. I think fewer Catholics, especially young Catholics, really care about the tradition. The trad Vatican battles, they just don't care that much. I think they're very pro tradition. [00:35:10] I think they love the traditional Latin Mass. They love traditional elements in Nosoro Mass, if that's what they go to. They're more and more attracted to and interested in traditional acts of piety, devotionals, spirituality, things like that. I think all that's true. [00:35:26] I don't think they care that much, though, about the battles between traditionalists and the Vatican. And so I just think that if we just constantly are ratcheting up the heat and attacking the Pope and the Vatican, stuff like that, I don't think we're attracting very many people. [00:35:44] I think a lot of Catholics, even Catholics who are friendly to us. I'm not talking about the progressive Catholics or the who cares Catholic, anything like that. I'm talking about the Catholics who are friendly to us. I think they will kind of turn away and say, this is not worth it. [00:35:56] So personally, I just go back to my advice I always give is pray and fast. [00:36:01] Pray and fast for Pope Leo in particular, that he would be a good and holy Pope. [00:36:07] Pray that he would recognize the importance of tradition and the importance of a lot of traditional acts of piety, traditional liturgy, things like that. But that's our main way we can do it. I'm not saying we never can. Criticize. Like I said, I have an article coming out later this week that criticizes Pope Leo. It's not about an issue that's really technically traditionalism or anything like that. But the point is, I'm not saying we never can criticize them. I'm simply saying turning down the heat was a good thing. It wasn't a conspiracy, but it was a good thing that. That it happened. So. Okay, let me check out the live chat. Okay. Patriot Pooh Bear first, congratulations. Thank you. I appreciate you, by the way, being a regular member of the chat and coming on and making comments. [00:36:48] Anni, Kate the great. Oh, yes. Anna Kate the great. I think you're still in Studentville from Steubenville. Eric, I love the new setup. Lighting looks good, too. Thank you. I do appreciate that because I put a lot of work into it. [00:36:59] I've had some struggles, I admit. I do. Guys, crisis is not rolling in cash. So the idea that I'm part of some conspiracy, I wish because then I could be rolling some cash. We do this on a relatively low budget. I don't have somebody here who is like, managing this stuff. I have to figure it out on my own. And so the lighting in particular has been a challenge. And so this is actually the first time I've done this type of lining. I think it's the best. [00:37:22] I think I'm pretty happy. I'm probably going to stick with this. And unless I get really crazy and side change it again. [00:37:28] Okay. G. Cummings, grading Pope Leo is a matter of how much we will overlook. Yeah, I mean, the question is, what is our responsibility to look, you say, you know, how much will we overlook? I've said that he. I mean, he should. You should not have alter girls. He has alter girls. I'm not overlooking it. I'm simply acknowledging the reality of where we are as a church. So what's our responsibility? What are we supposed to look at? I mean, are we supposed to nitpick every single thing he does and say, okay, this was good. This was bad? I don't think so. [00:38:00] Love the new studio, Lake look. Thank you all. Wow. I got two compliments. I appreciate that. AV Creations says that. Okay, Anthony, I. I am trading. Anthony, you are trading. I mean, okay, it's time to come clean. [00:38:16] Anthony's the head of trading. He founded it. We take our orders from him and basically everything we do, it comes back to him. And I'm. But to be honest, Anthony, I'm still waiting for my first payment. You keep saying it's coming. I haven't seen it yet. [00:38:30] Okay. [00:38:31] Andrea Colombo says trash represented about.0.001% of world Catholics. The percentage is a bit higher. In the U.S. like 2%. Yeah, I think it is. [00:38:42] Might be more than 2% in America. As far as, if you want to say Catholics, if you want to limit to Catholics who go to mass weekly, I think it's more than 2% in America, but it's still single digits. Don't get me wrong. If you want to limit it to everybody who says they're Catholic, then yeah, it's probably less than 1%. So, yeah, we're just not. I think we, I think we, we have. I've said this before. I think the energy of the Church really resides with the traditional movement. I think that's where the energy is coming from of like really kind of pushing forward. And so I think it's. We're outsized our influence for good reason. But it's still, I think your average Catholic, especially Catholic bishop over 60, still considers us just like, like they did in the 90s, like we're, like we're nobodies. [00:39:29] Hey, Gracie O' Bunny says it's kind of nice to not be attacked and hurt by the Pope, but Leo seems a little indifferent to trans. Yeah, you read. You just summed it up right there. It is great, isn't it, not to be attacked by your Holy Father. I mean, none of us like that and a lot of us, you know, got angry and I think we had legitimate reasons to be angry. At least Leo doesn't attack us, which is good. And I think that means something. I think he genuinely wants the best for us. He doesn't look at it. I don't think he looks at us as the enemy, but I don't think he cares. I don't think he. He doesn't look at us as. That is more important than any other group and probably less important than a lot a borgarading or garading. I'm sorry, not sure that Rome doesn't care about traditionalists. Apparently SSPX is the third largest war in the church behind Augustinians and Jesuits. That might draw some attention given their stance. I don't know, I might disagree. I think I might disagree because like the sspx, I don't think they consider them really kind of in the Church. Now, don't, don't get all technical on me, people. I'm not saying they're in schism and I'm not even saying they're saying they're in schism. [00:40:31] But as far as like, who they manage, who they're. Who they think about, like, okay, they have to worry about the Jesuits. They have to worry about the Augustinians. They don't actually have to worry that much about the sspx because they don't actually kind of have oversight over them. [00:40:45] Daniel says dialogue Smile log. There's no dialogue. Well, that is probably true. We're in. Great comments today. I love this chat today. [00:40:53] Market X says, I think he is as extreme as Francis, but not in a nasty way. And I. I get that. [00:41:00] I get that. I don't agree. I do not agree. I think he is. First of all, he's not nasty as you. I agree with you on that. But I. I think that he is just. His view of the Church, his ecclesiology, his view of tradition, things like that is nowhere near as extreme as Francis. I don't think it's as good as Benedict, or maybe not even as good as JP2, but it's not as. It's not as extreme as Francis. I don't think. [00:41:25] Pillar 6311 says, with Cardinal Fernandez still there, I don't know how Poplio can be looked upon favorably. It's not like Popoli is ignorant of his appointment. Yeah, I. I don't disagree with you in this. I mean, when you say looked upon favorably, are we. Is this like a yes? No question. I look at more like, okay, where does he lie on the spectrum? And frankly, keeping Cardinal Fernandez in. In office this long I do think is problematic and kind of makes him push more towards the. The. The. The problem end of the spectrum. Like, I wasn't. I didn't think he had to fire him the day one, but I did think by in with after six months or so, he probably should have replaced most of Lee Francis's appointments to these high offices. Especially though Cardinal Fernandez. Who's the worst? [00:42:08] The worst? [00:42:10] Okay. Palm, Palermo, Trapani. I like all these names because they make me look foolish trying to pronounce them. Fernandez's tenure in summer of 2028. That will be the chance to either reappoint or give him a diocese back in Argentina. [00:42:23] Oh, God, I hope it's not that long before he's. He's out of office. Because remember, the Pope can remove him tomorrow if he wants to. He doesn't have to wait until his tenure ended. Maybe he will. Maybe he'll think there's reason to do that. I. I don't think he should, but maybe he will. But if he kept them even after that, yikes, that would definitely not be a good sign. [00:42:45] Okay, I'm gonna wrap it up there. Hey, I appreciate everybody jumping on the chat. We had a lively one today and just those who join us on the live podcast on Tuesday afternoons. I really appreciate that. Also, thank you for the compliments, people. Saw. So if you're listening to this, not watching, hey, maybe this is your sign that you should watch at some point. We're on YouTube, we're on Rumble, we're on Facebook, and we're on X. So YouTube and Rumble are probably the best too, because Facebook and X videos are kind of dumb usually. So, okay, bye everybody. That's it for now. Until next time. God love you. And remember, the poor.