How to Shepherd Lost Souls

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign. [00:00:13] Speaker B: So, Kevin, I have to start with this. I'm really sorry about your Orioles this year. The last time you were on was opening day. We're not going to talk about baseball, people, just so you know. Don't worry. You can go listen to our past podcast for that. My son, by the way, loved the podcast episode. He's a big baseball fan. He loved your stories. You got to meet him sometime. But anyway, he's actually on his honeymoon right now. My son is. But anyway, last time we talked baseball, opening day, you were very confident in the O's chances. I wasn't so confident in the Reds. I was right about the Reds, but unfortunately, so far, at least not looking too good for the O's. [00:00:53] Speaker A: No. The only. The only thing we hopefully will say, Eric, on this entire podcast ends now with baseball. But I. I'm okay. If the Orioles are projected to be a bad team and they're bad, I don't care. It doesn't matter to me. But two months ago, the Orioles were projected to be a World Series contender, and right now, they're the second worst team in baseball. And my summer has been ruined. And that's all I want to talk about with baseball. I don't want to anymore. [00:01:18] Speaker B: I don't blame you. As a Reds fan, I understand those feelings. So, anyway, we're not going to talk about baseball, though, today. I want to talk about. What we're going to talk about is. I mean, really, it's a crisis in the church. The. The fact is, I just did an article a couple weeks ago about the Pew study that showed that for every 100 people who enter this church, 840 are leaving. There are just massive numbers of people over the past. I've been Studying this for 15 years now, at least. Massive numbers of people leaving the church throughout the world, but particularly in the Western world and particularly in America, just the numbers are dire, they're bleak, they're terrible. But I want to just focus on that. You, I think, have come across some unique way, ways to combat the crisis, to try to slow the flow, outflow, so to speak. And it really comes this book you have coached by Curie, the Lessons in Shepherding with John Vianney. I've never seen a book like this. I don't think there's ever been a book written like this. And it's a unique. Like, I wrote a book called the Old Evangelization, and it was very practical. Just. Okay, how can we help people evangelize stuff like that? Okay, fine. I'm not the Only person who's written a book like this. This one though. Nobody's ever written a book like this that I know of. And, and we'll get into that in a minute. It's gonna be our teaser here at the beginning. But first what I want to do is. Okay, I lived in the Washington D.C. diocese for 10 years and that was during McCarrick and Wuerl were the archbishops. You've lived there your basically your life. I know you were in, in Florida for a little while, but it's, it's your home archdiocese. You're there again. I want to talk about start with McCarrick because that I think has had, it had a profound impact on both you and me. I think. I really feel like both of us changed in 2018 with what happened with the Cardinal McCarrick then. Cardinal McCarrick revelations. Can you talk a little bit about just your own, like what ha. Like how did your thinking change or your outlook or something? I feel like, I hope I'm not speaking for you, but I feel like you changed some too. And can you kind of describe how that was for you in 2018? [00:03:35] Speaker A: Of course I can. I just briefly, I want to go back to 2000 when I really early as 2002, my uncle was murdered, Monsignor Thomas Wells in his rectory and gruesome, gruesome murder. My uncle was a, A, a powerhouse in the Archdiocese of Washington for 29 years. And you know, I'm his nephew saying this, but I think many hundreds, if not thousands would tell you this, that if you lined up 200 priests today in the Archdiocese of Washington, you asked, you know, who's one of the most powerful priests in the history of the diocese. They'd say Monsignor Wells. [00:04:11] Speaker B: He. [00:04:11] Speaker A: I won't go into the reasons why, but he was just explosive. He loved the Eucharist, he loved Mary and he loved people. And you combine those three things. So he was murdered. And you know, I used to be a journalist, Eric, as you know, and no one really knew. It was crazy. It's like the devil. You know, we often forget that in scripture says the devil's not only a liar, but he's a murderer. So we just chalked it up to he was saving a lot of souls and he got murdered by this crazy drunk, cocaine fueled, homeless tree trimmer. And, and then, and then a priest got arrested from the, the parish he was at and he was layicized. And I, as a journalist, I was like, this was three years later, 2003. And I looked into it. And I realized that he was a predator. And then I looked more into it and I looked into the. I talked to one of the criminal invest lead criminal investigators, and I talked to the assistant DA and they both told me that my uncle's murder came from. Was a direct result from the act of clergy homosexuality that was going on in. In that rectory prior to my uncle's arrival. Then I learned that the last, really, I would say faithful Cardinal, Cardinal Hickey, had sent my uncle to that parish to root out that homosexual. So. So back in 2003, 2004, I realized that there was a darkness that I did not know before. So when 2018 rolled around, it was jarring. But, you know, I just. Be honest, it wasn't surprising. What surprised me was this. And this is what turned. This is what turned everything for me. The response. So rather than a sackcloth and ashes penitential movement to, you know, laity that we knew as bishops what he had been doing for 30, 40 years, and we kept it quiet and shipped priests and shipped him and allowed him to rise to meteoric heights in the church, you know, that we knew all this. So we are going to commit ourselves for the rest of 2018 and 2019 to a holy hour, begging for your forgiveness, begging for your mercy, because we feel shame and we have shamed you. Rather than getting this mea culpa in this massive apology, will you accept our apology from bishops? We got silence and then. And then came the November meetings where the Pope, Pope Francis, Foreign Pope Francis asked the bishops to kick down the road, any kind of revelations on McCarrick. It was in November that I said, my goodness, there is an evil that lurks deeply in our church. So really, I think it was November where I was really alerted to the fact that this thing seems conspiratorial. This thing seems to be of the devil. So. So that's when I kind of. Everything changed for me. [00:07:26] Speaker B: Yeah, I actually moved to the D.C. diocese in 2001, and I was in the neighboring parish of your uncle's parish. And I remember hearing about, oh, yeah, do you know the. The past Monsignor Pastor, I think it was pastor of that parish. He was actually murdered. I was like, oh, that's awful. But it was just like, oh, yeah, it was just some crazy guy or something like that. And that was the official story for a very long time. In fact, it wasn't until you, like, I think you wrote an article for Crisis or something. I can't. But, like, basically I was like, oh, I didn't even know, like, everybody spoke so highly of your uncle. Like, I knew that, like, he was his beloved priest. And it wasn't like that fake beloved. They always say when a priest dies and they're like, oh, yeah, everybody loved Father Bob or whatever, but really he wasn't that beloved. People talked about your uncle, like, so highly. And I was like, well, that sounds like a great man. That's tragic that he died in this accident, basically. I mean, equivalent of an accident is how it was done. And then. But yeah, it looks pretty clear that he was put in a parish that had some bad stuff going on in the rectory and he was just in the way, so to speak. And, and so, yeah, and so that. But then, like, we didn't know about McCarrick at the time. And he was like, I think you even mentioned this in the book. But he, he even. He was a point man after 2002 to the media for representing the bishops on this issue of saying, like, yeah, this is awful. This has happened, but we're taking these steps. Things will be better. And if nothing else, McCarrick was just a master at manipulating the media, at public relations. I mean, he was. There's a reason he rose so high in the hierarchy. It wasn't just, you know, it wasn't by by coincidence, he had massive talents, but of course he ended up using them for evil. So you see this happen and like, this really ties into what I was talking about. Everybody leaving the church, everybody. But, like, so many people left the church. If you look at the numbers, what you see is in 1970, there starts to be. This is. In America, there's be a significant decline, but it kind of levels off then 2000, and the numbers are only every five years. So you can't be as exactly. It just starts dropping like a rock. And it's continued to do that till today. And a lot of people point that and say abuse crisis, but I don't think it's as simple as that. But I also think there's no question the abuse crisis is one of the factors of it. And so what would you say are some of the. Because really, when we're talking about shepherding lost souls, which I really want to talk about today, I don't really want to talk about McCarrick very long. What do you think are the other real fundamental reasons, beyond just the abuse crisis, for why so many people have been leaving the Catholic Church and other religions, let's be honest, other religions in America for the past 20 years plus. [00:10:24] Speaker A: That'S the question so, so you're right, the abuse crisis plays a strong hand in it. But I don't even think about the abuse crisis. I rarely think about it. It's almost like the, the ex Catholic who doesn't even go to a, I don't know, a Pentecostal church or a non denominational. They'll, they'll tell you on a plane, sit next to you on a plane. I heard this a couple weeks ago. Oh yeah, I left the Catholic. You know, they saw a book I was reading by on contemplative prayer and they said, oh, you're a Catholic? And she said, yeah, I used to be a Catholic. Oh that's, that's what, what happened? Why'd you leave the church? Well, it was, it was the abuse. And I always think, you know, you're using that as a cop out. You're not. So I don't even think about the abuse crisis. Why? To answer your question, over the past 34, actually 60, 70 years, I've come to believe, and it's the reason I wrote the book, Coached by the Cure, that there has been a, I don't know if it's been purposeful, but there's been a re. Engineering or a softening in the ministerial priesthood. Where. So John Vianney woke up every day and said, where can I die to myself today? And he Woke up at 2:30 in the morning each morning. Where can I become a white martyr today? Because it's all about one word, it's all about souls. So for the next 18 hours, 19 hours, he went after souls. So whether it was before Vatican II or right before or during or after, there was an abdication, of the burden of the identity of many tens of thousands, let's say of, of priests, of deacons. Well, it's just, let's just stick with priests and bishops now where you could still be a priest, but not in the same vein as Melchizedek, as Abraham. Definition, the priesthood is one who offers sacrifice. What does a priest do? I would think that a seminarian who lays down fully prostrate, has the hands, stands up a priest for the first time, looks into the crucifix and says, all of a sudden, ah, the centerpiece of the rest of my life, the identity is Jesus Christ spread out on a cross who pours himself out as a sacrifice. John Vianney, let's go after souls. The priest, let's go after souls. Somehow the corpus was taken off the cross. And again you and I know many, many faithful priests, strong, holy. Some of my Best friends are priests. My brother's a priest. But somehow along the line, priests became too stinking comfortable. Many of them. And what happens when folks in the pew sees a priest who celebrates the Mass that's not liturgically beautiful? You know, he doesn't pray. The office, which doesn't lead to a beautiful Mass, the homily is milquetoast. He's contracepted the Gospel, the indelicate parts of the Gospel, people get bored, they're checked out. It's just a boring rerun of something they did last Sunday. So they drop out of the church. John Vianney, after the French Revolution, after the Reign of Terror, he had the same thing. Robespierre killed the Catholic Church. John Vianney said, okay, I've been dealt a bad hand. No one's going to Mass in ours. No one's receiving the sacraments. What do I do? Well, I die. I die for these Souls. And within 20, 30 years, not only is ours converted into a village of willing saints, but France. France was brought back to the faith. Why? Because this priest, this little five foot one forest gump who failed out of seminary three times, he said, I must become a shepherd who dies, not only protects the flock, but dies for the flock so I can lead them to heaven. So I would think that until maybe Pope Leo or bishops or cardinals or priests have that mentality as I must have as my kid's father, who must suffer, sacrifice and give, giving myself the best I can to my kids, then until that identity comes back to the priesthood, we're not coming back because no one cares about a comfortable church. [00:14:37] Speaker B: Yeah, I think you said something, I've thought for quite some time that I think when we see these news stories about how so many people are leaving the church, we want to point the big things, okay? The fact that the abuse crisis or the teaching on contraception or the liturgy or whatever, and all those things are factors. I don't want to act like they're not. But ultimately it comes down to, does the Catholic think it's worth their time to get up out of bed and go to Mass on Sunday morning? Or is it more worthwhile just to sleep in or to go to the local Protestant church or to do whatever, go to the beach and hang out, whatever the case may be, to drink their coffee, watch the news stations on Sunday morning? Or do they feel like, and I know this sounds crass to some people, but this is how people actually operate in real life. They get up in the morning or may Saturday night, they're thinking what I want to do in the morning. And they just ask, is it worth my time? And at some point in their life, typically when they're in their 20s, they just decide, you know, it's just not worth it. They'll tell you later on the airplane it's because the abuse crisis. But it honestly is, they just wake up and say, I just don't feel like going to mass. I've met countless people like that. When you really talk to them, like when you, when you get the, the answer to the question in the, in the, in the pew study or whatever, or the quick answer on the airport, yeah, sure. The, they'll say abuse crisis. Oh, I don't believe in their teaching against homosexuality. I hear that one a lot these days. But when you really talk to them, it's like you find out, no, they just decide it wasn't worth it. Why wasn't it worth it? And I think you hit the nail right on the head because when they go, there's nothing really compelling. I mean, we know of course what's really going on supernaturally. You still have the Eucharist, which is the most important thing in the universe. You, that, that is still there. You're still receiving graces if you're open to them, but you have to be open to that. And people who don't, who've live their life very comfortable Catholicism, they show up, Father's preaching yet another homily about how we have to be nice. Maybe he says something kind of sidelong against the Trump administration, you know, kind of with a wink and that. And then it's like, okay, that's it. And you just go home and the average 24 year old, especially average 24 year old man is just going to be like, this isn't worth it, I'm sleeping in, or whatever. And that ultimately, and I don't think you're doing this. I'm not trying to do this. I'm not just pointing fingers at priests and bishops. But ultimately the priest is the one who sets the tone at the local parish. And if he's living comfortably, then he's going to preach comfortable Catholicism. [00:17:22] Speaker A: Yeah, it's very uncomplicated. It's analogous to my Baltimore Orioles. I'll bring baseball unfortunately back into it again. I will not watch the Orioles because it's bad baseball. It's, it's boring baseball. I, I, I can't, I can't watch them. And if, if, if a 9 year old boy who wants to be a superhero, he reads comics or, or he, he wants to be a Aaron Judge or, or he, or he wants to be, you know, he, maybe he wants to be a saint. And he goes to mass Sunday after Sunday after Sunday and he, and he senses there's. He, he doesn't seem to care for my soul. Now he might not intuitively understand that, but he senses there's something that looks like a bachelor up there who, who laughs a lot and, and, and you know, the music's bad or whatever. He gets bored and, and maybe mom and dad keep yanking him to mass until he's 18 and then he goes away to college and, and then he's done. Because a 9 year old kid stars hungers for a leader, for, for, for a saint up on the altar saying, come with me, come with me. I'm going to take you to places that you do not know. Let's, you know, it's the typical Tolkien novel. Let's go explore. Let's, let's go to lands that you do not know. And, and when you get like a John Grisham JV novel, you're like, I don't know. I, it, it doesn't really. If the, if, if, if the shepherd doesn't really believe in it, then why the hell, why the heck should I believe in it? So yeah, I'm with you. I'm with you, Eric. I fought that forever. Boredom, I believe. Boredom. Or I'm lazy or I don't want to do it anymore. That's what starts the rock rolling down the hill. [00:19:02] Speaker B: What's interesting is if you look at that era of the abuse crisis, when it broke out, obviously was happening long of the early 2000s. Something. What you said made me think of three of the most popular movies of that era were the Passion of the Christ, which is obvious what that's showing the Lord of the Rings series and the Spider man movies. All three of those movies had their protagonist offering massive sacrifices for, for the good. Obviously Passion Christ, we know Frodo obviously and Sam, what they're doing and the rest of the characters, but even Spider man, like I remember reading at the time, like Spider man gives up in the first movie, he gives up dating the love of his life because he's like, I can't do that because I have this higher calling to be a superhero. And I know we can make fun of comic books. I like comic books, but I understand people can make fun of them. But the point is, is like why did that resonate with so many people? It's because we're built for that. This idea of something bigger than ourselves we want to give up for. But at the same time that those movies are attracting literally millions and millions of people. You have priests, you walk into Sunday mass and they're just like, yeah, be nice. People they chuck. They make their little dumb joke and stuff like that, and they. And they go through the motions in the liturgy where it's clear you're not even 100 sure if they believe. Well, that's such a dichotomy. I see why, like, the new atheists at the time attracted a lot of people then. And just other things were just like, I'm out of here. I think we. And it doesn't take. Yeah. It's not rocket science to figure out that it was just like, this is not, you know, because, like, I like the. The fact these movies were so popular back then, back when, you know, and so people were clearly hungering for it. And unfortunately, the church shot the ball. So we really see the priests. I mean, you know, we've all. We're all sinners, and we both know great priests. I'm very fortunate to have awesome priests in my parish. But it's still true today. So the question is, you and I aren't priests. Most people watching. There will be some priests, and I bet you the priests who's listening to this are probably doing their best. But what can we do? I mean, that's kind of, I think, why you wrote the book. It's like, I'm not St. John Vianney. I'm not even a priest. I just got some kids to raise, and I'm trying to make. By what do I do to really try to keep my kids from leaving or keep people I know and love from leaving or bring them back? You know, one or the other. [00:21:38] Speaker A: Yeah, well, that's the question. That is why I wrote the book. So we'll describe. We'll describe it from the. The North Pole and the South Pole. So let. Whether. Whether there's. You have a. A bachelor priest who, who. Who plays Go Make a Difference as his entrance song and his. His exit song and he has a rainbow stole. Or you have a faithful priest who you sense would take a bullet for you and everyone in his flock. Both of them would say, I need you, mom and dad to be domestic priests in the home. So that's the book. It's John Vianney speaking to moms and dads saying, no longer count on ccd. No longer count on Catholic education. Don't count on Catholic colleges. Don't count on the Holy Priest. Don't count on the bachelor priest because the bachelor priest will say, yeah, man, mom and dad, you, you, you read them lives of the saints. You pray with them, you pray with the kids. Because I got a meeting to attend. I gotta shuffle some papers. The faithful priest will say, hey, Eric, thanks for getting in the game, man. I love it. You're, you're leading your kin. It helps me more. So, so, so I think the priest would say mom and dad with this, with these Ouija boards called cell phones in every single pocket of your children in the world of, of, of the pornography of the, of the Leviathan of modernism, progressivism, it's mom and dad. If you are not becoming priests in your home because that's your identity, let's that you, you must be as custodians of your children's souls. Then you don't have a shot if you're relying on the old formula of Catholic. 16 years of Catholic school, CCD. Oh, they got a few Catholic friends out there. If I look, Kevin Wells, if I don't have a plan to get my children to heaven, they're probably going to go to hell. I, I've got to. As their dad, as their father, as their shepherd, as the custodian of their souls, I, not Father. I have to have a blueprint to keep them on track on that northbound train, to keep them not only in the church, but hopefully for the remainder of their life. But to get them to heaven. [00:23:52] Speaker B: Yeah. Now you said that like the parents have to be priests in home first. I just want men want to say that. I think some people might cringe at the idea of like the mom being the priest. Like, wait a minute, are you calling for women priests here? But like, what do you mean exactly? Because I think there's, there is the idea that the father is the priest of the house. But you're saying the parents are the priests. So explain what you mean by that to make sure it's very clear what you're saying. [00:24:17] Speaker A: A mother offers her life for her children just as the Father does. So they are co. Equal in the priesthood in the measure of sacrifice. The Father, as we know from scripture, the Father is the head of the home. But mom has got to be just invested as dad. You know, dad carries the cross, dad dies on the cross as Christ did, as Paul told us to. But mom's in the game too. So I guess what I'm saying is it can't be like a teeter totter. It's got to be the oneness of the marital bond. Our kids are in jeopardy because the world is a fire breathing dragon. We must die to ourselves. We must amputate our own little peccadilloes, our comforts, these little things that we feel like, ah, let's take our foot off the brake. Let's just let the kid have the cell phone for an hour. No, no. Mom and dad have to offer themselves really as a libation today in this 2025 where the world wants to suck our kids dry. I mean that's just so I, that's kind of how I see it. The priest offers sacrifice. So do mom and dad. [00:25:22] Speaker B: Yeah. And I don't want something like the grumpy old man here, but I might for a second. And that is, I don't understand. Like, okay, my kids range from age 28 is the oldest and 10 is the youngest. And I feel like there was a significant shift in how people parented during that time from my oldest, my youngest, like people like my kids, my oldest friends and how their kid, you know, their peers were parented is different than how my youngest. And the biggest thing I saw was, and you brought up right there of like the, oh, just, you know, give in on the cell phone or something like that. It's not just the cell phone, but like this idea of appeasing the child, of just being like, okay, well he's, you know, he's complaining about that. Just give him something, you know, he can't have. He really wants to play with that knife. I'm not gonna let him knife. But here, I'll give you something else to make you happy instead. Saying, no, kid, don't have the knife and go figure something else out on your own. It's just like, okay, I now have to make him happy because. And I feel like it's that, I mean, this is my blunt assessment. A lot of times it is that lack of willingness to sacrifice, to suffer. Because any parent will tell you it's, it's definitely suffering when that kid just blows up and goes crazy, especially if he does it at the store or something like that. And you just want to do anything to make it stop. But sometimes you just gotta be like, no, I guess gotta, I gotta endure this right now. So I think that what have you seen that too with like parenting that's become more appeasement over the years. I think your kids are relatively similar like range as mine. [00:26:53] Speaker A: No, it's two things. The easy answer is you say appeasement, I'll say the change has been mom and dad want to be friends with Their kids. That's the easy one. That's what I've seen. Friendship with children rather than guardianship. But I'm going to flesh it out a little deeper because I've often thought about what you're speaking of now. So I think most saints, if not every saint, canonized saint in the history of the church, would say, I could not become a saint without an active prayer life. I had to be devoted to prayer, whether contemplative, meditative. But prayer was the thing that kept me in the game and I had no excuse. I needed to pray every day. A day without prayer was not optional. So when mom and dad don't commit themselves to prayer, they don't pray. Prayer is not necessary. I just need to be a good mom and dad. Whatever. Well, they're not infused. They're not divinized with the Holy Spirit. So they've given up on the fight to pray. I'm not going to pray. It's too much work. I don't really want to go to Sunday mass. We're going to skip because there's a baseball game on Sunday. Whatever. Well, analogously, when son and daughter are acting up or they want to use the cell phone or sleep with the cell phone under their pillow, or the kids acting up, well, they don't have the fight. They didn't fight to pray, so they're not going to fight to save the son, to try and do the right thing, to take away the cell phone, engage in that fight with the teenager. So they give in. So I think it's this giving in, this yielding. And what it really becomes is, well, since I'm really not fighting, I'm going to become their friend. Because if I'm my children's friend, then they'll like me more and then they'll listen. But innately, intuitively, I think. I think little Annie and Johnny understand something's wrong here. I don't need another friend. I've got enough friends at school and in the neighborhood on my sports teams. I don't need mom and dad as my friend. Why are they always giving in? So, yeah, I agree with you, Eric. There's been a massive sea change in parenting in just the past 20 years. And I think technology is a big reason. [00:28:58] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, the technology battle is a big one. By the way, speaking of technology. Sorry, I cut out there for a minute. My computer just kind of gave out, but that's okay. But the, like, the bat, of course, the battle of the cell phone is a big one. The smartphone and like, for Example, I have a daughter who's about to turn 16. She does not have a. She has a flip phone she uses when she goes to work. She has to call. In fact, she just called right before this to say, come pick me up. But she gets no smartphone. She's not going to get a smartphone when she turns 18. It's like, okay, at that point, you know, you're on, not you're on your own, but you know, you're an adult. You can get a smartphone if you want one. But the reason we can do that isn't because we're like these uber parents who are so strong, but we've done all these things to set up an environment where most of her friends don't have them either. Where at the very least, even if a friend or two has one, even their parents understand that not everybody has cell phone smartphones and make sure it's more under control and they're not like, you know, constantly looking at it and doing all that. So that is something that I think, I feel like a lot of times, and I'm very glad you, you're not doing this in the book because you go much more deeper. I feel like we just do surface solutions. Like if we say, okay, limit your kids time on the smartphone, that is just. You get the hell. A little bit slower maybe. I mean, it's not really solving the problem, but it's like you have to do a rat. Maybe a radical reconfiguration of everything. It might mean you have to pull your kid out of the local school. It might. Which might mean mom has to stop working. It might mean that, you know, you might have to have a whole new friend group, join a different parish. Yeah, it might mean that. But is your, is your kid so worth it? I mean, is it really worth it to. I mean. Or not? I mean, I'm not saying these are easy things I don't want to. Like, I understand there are people in situations that's very difficult to do that through no fault of their own. But ultimately a lot of people, I think they just kind of go along like, well, everybody else, they, they send their kids to school. Everybody else kids have cell phones. Everybody else kids do sports on Sundays. Everybody else is, you know, it's like, I'm just going to, I have to do it too. But that's not going to be the real hard choices that are necessary to really make your kid not want to. Statistics of the 840 who are leaving for every 100 that come in. [00:31:17] Speaker A: No, I mean, you Said it, Eric, it's, it is a movement to the countercultural light. Just, just very briefly, I'm just thinking of this as you're speaking. So I live outside of Annapolis and yesterday the blue angels did their thing in the skies, that the plain ballet in the skies is beautiful. But anyway, I went with a high school and probably about 40, 50 kids there and none of them had cell phones. And they're all high school kids. They were enjoying the blue angels in the sky and it was just a reminder that. And Eric, thank you for saying what you just said. You know, you found a way to cultivate friendships in an environment where your kids around other kids that are not using their cell phone. That's a big thing. And it's a problem for moms and dads and I don't blame them. It's very hard for parents to find like minded parents as you have found that, that it's normal for a 16, 17 year old daughter not to have a cell phone because the other ones don't have it either. And that's the difficult thing. [00:32:18] Speaker B: Yeah, and I'll tell you like our parish is downtown and It's a good 25, 30 minute drive but when there's traffic and different times it can be very, you know, hit traffic, take a long time, be propane. And we had a stretch there. This was just about, I mean really during Holy Week and before that where we were going down there a lot and it was just, I really got tired of it, I'll just admit it, I got tired of going down there because it just was, I kept hitting traffic, kept having problems that and like, you know, finding parking and all that. And I remember thinking to myself, man, it'd be so much easier just there's a parish right down the street from me that would take me, you know, five minutes to get to plenty of parking, no problems that. But then it's like after mass I look around and I see all these kids hanging out, the teenagers doing their thing, talking to each other, the little ones running around, stuff like that. And there's not a cell phone in sight. They're all just interacting with each other, having a good time. And I'm just like, you know, it's really that big of a sacrifice to drive down here in the traffic. It's not for that. And I know for a fact if I went to the other parish, the local one, that's what it would be. It'd be if they were friends with the kids there. And I'm not trying to shame those Parents, Maybe I am. But, like, they'd be all on their cell phones and they'd be doing everything that the regular world does. And so that little drive I'm taking is worth a lot. You know, ultimately, let's circle back to. [00:33:41] Speaker A: The very beginning of the podcast and what you asked. Why is our church bleeding out? Why are 860 out the back door when 100 come in the front door? Why? Because of a lack of sacrifice. So what? You said you would never think of yourself as a superhero for your children, but what you're doing is sacrificial because in a sense, you're taking a bullet for your kids. You know, stuck in traffic, oh, man, it's an hour instead of 30 minutes. And it's a nuisance, but you're willing to take on the nuisances, to do the little tiny things to maybe get your kids to heaven. Why is our church bleeding out? Because we forgot what Melchizedek was, what Abraham was. They offered sacrifice. It's all about pastors, the domestic priests in the home, saying, am I willing to do the nuisance things? Am I willing to take on the costs? You know, the small little choices we make every day. Maybe there's between 6 and 9, 10 of the nuisance things we do that subtract from our comfort, but they enable our kids or our wife or whomever to grow a little bit knowing that we love them more or willing to sacrifice. For me, the whole name of the game and what John Vianney knew so well was unless I die, unless I become a white martyr, almost like Therese of Lesoux, moment to moment, from inch to foot to yard to mile throughout every minute of the day, then I'm really not accepting who I am, who God has called me to be, and that is to be like him, to offer myself as he offered himself. And so I think really, it comes down to for the priest behind the ambo or the priest behind the desk, the domestic priest, am I willing to amputate my own little creature comforts to try and push along my kids and my wife to greater measures of virtue, sanctity, or whatever else? And that's where I am on cell phones or the church or the domestic home. Is there sacrifice? If there is sacrifice, it's usually a pretty healthy place. [00:35:50] Speaker B: Yeah. What's interesting, though, is the irony, I think, is, is that by making those sacrifices up front, you actually save yourself a lot of suffering on the back end. I'm not saying you guarantee your kid's going to turn out great or anything. Like that we all know free will. You could be the best parent in the world and. And your kid could still fall away and reject you. I have seen it in other families that where it has happened and I feel for them. I know the parents were great parents. I know they did everything. So I'm not claiming that at the same time your percentages really change because like, for example, by not having my kids in this like a public school environment with you know, everybody on their phones and you know, pornography by the time they're in high school, stuff like that, I don't have the sullen kid at home who is checked out once is just like holed up in the room looking at their phone all day and night, not paying attention to their. Not being nice to their siblings, not being good to their parents, possibly then getting into even worse stuff like drugs or promiscuity, things like that. You're actually saving yourself with the upfront investment for the back end from the back end suffering. And so it's like not saying you're avoiding all suffering, of course, but I really do think that's something that I wish parents would have A more long term look at is like when you appease your kid, like we were talking before, you appease your kid in the short term, what's going to happen is when they're. You do that when they're three. Well then when they're like 13 or 14 and you realize you can't appease them on a certain thing, it's going to be, it's going to be the battle royale. Whereas if their whole life they've been told, no, you can't do this, then they're like, okay. They accept it much more willingly later. So I think that's, that's said I wanted to transition real quick. Not real quick, but more into the book. Because it's not a biography of St. John Vianney. It's not at all biography. If you want biography of St. John Vianney, you have some books in the back here for further reading to do that this is. Okay, you, you kind of alluded to it before, but I want to make sure it's clear. This is a book written in the voice. Voice of St. John Vianney from heaven. Now I gotta ask you what gave you the. What's the word? The gumption? [00:38:03] Speaker A: Arrogance. [00:38:04] Speaker B: Yeah, the air. Okay, I'll say. You thought he said it before I did. The arrogance. I think you can speak in the voice of a saint from heaven. I think you're a great journalist. I Think you're a great writer. One of the best. I really do think that. I'm not just saying that, but still, I just. You had to have something in you that made you think, like, okay, I'm going to actually do this. Because I know you were thinking, like, who the heck am I to pull this off? [00:38:26] Speaker A: Yeah. I mean, it should strike someone as arrogant that I would take on the voice of John Vianney. But. But I'm Irish, and I've got an active imagination. And when I began to write this book, I wrote it as, what, John V. So I pulled it. So for your viewer, I pulled John Vianney out of his grave in 1859, and I had him look around at 2025, and what he sees obviously startles him. You know, obviously with homosexual marriage, contraception, the whole chitter match. He's. He's startled, and he realizes, oh, my gosh, you know what? I would be canceled today. Irony of ironies, the patron saint of Paris priest. I would be canceled because why? Because I always preached principally and unapologetically on morality. So I'd be a canceled priest. So I began to write this book, and about a month or two in, I said, this book stinks, and I burned it to the ground because I was writing John Vianney and John Vianney's voice to priests. But I'm like, you know what? I've written enough about priests. I said, I'm going to have John Vianney speak to moms and dads because of the abandonment of that so many priests have, of the priests that have left kids to the ways of the world by not preaching on the indelicate topics of modernity from behind the ambo. They have not taken on the beasts of all the things that have flooded society, the cultural rot. So essentially, John Vianney says, hey, the window has closed on. On priests. I. I'm not worried about that anymore. Matter of fact, I have been renamed in heaven by God through my patron saint, Philomena, as the patron saint of the domestic home. And. And I am here to tell you, actually, believe it or not, 2025 is a lot like 1818 Ars, France, because after the French Revolution, many of the priests had signed this oath to Robespierre, and they had become fake priests who, rather than preaching on Mary, they preached on Holy Mother France. Rather than preaching on prayer, they preached on service. Well, you got the same thing today. So as those priests 200 years ago genuflected to the world, genuflected to Robespierre, Well, a lot of your priests have done the same. They won't preach on some of the topics that are tough. Why? I don't know. I don't judge them, so I don't care about them anymore. The window was closed. Moms and dads. I'm going to lay out sort of a blueprint of what I sort of had to do to raise ours back to health and raise, really, France back to health after the revolution. So. So because I'm a Irishman, I said, you know what? I'm going to step into his head now. Obviously. I read four. I read many of his. I read four of his biographies. I read his sermons. So I kind of had a handle on maybe what he. How he might speak to 20, 25. So it's kind of a hodgepodge of arrogance. And really this. This priest in heaven saying, moms and dads, man, I'm on the sidelines. I got my pom poms on. You can do it. I did it, Norris. Here's how I did it. You can do it the same. And I'm going to sort of tell you how I did it. So I don't know if that answers your question, Eric, but that's what I did. [00:41:49] Speaker B: Yeah. And I. And it works. And I do think it works. I think that what's interesting is this idea of. I like the idea of you kind of move away from. You have a book. I can't remember the name of it. Priests that We Need. What was the book you read about? [00:42:03] Speaker A: Need to Save the Church. [00:42:05] Speaker B: Priests. We need to Save the Church. Excellent book. But this is almost like a sequel to it. I feel like in a certain way, in that you really focus on priests there. But there can be a danger, and maybe we've even fallen into it early in this podcast of if you focus so much on the priest sins, you forget that ultimately my salvation, salvation of my kids is on me. I mean, it's on God, obviously, first and foremost. But, like, if I'm directly responsible, just like a priest may be responsible for the souls in his parish, I'm 100% responsible for the souls in my house. And so you have John Vianney focus on, okay, what can you do? And I don't think anybody's ever done that before because you always think of John Vianney associated with sacramental priesthood. You say he's a patron parish priest, but now you're saying, okay, what would he actually say to mom and dad at home? What they could do. So what are some of the things that Kind of in broad spoke, broad strokes that you, you say that you're having St. John Vianney say to mom and dad at the home in 2025. [00:43:12] Speaker A: Well, okay, well, just for starters, what, what he does is mom and Dad, I know it's tough right now to raise your kids in the faith with the secularism that rages around your kids each day at school, away from school, entertainment, etc. But also, mom and Dad, I know some of your kids have left the faith. So I'm just going to speak to you about some of the things that I think can lead. Might lead the kids back, but also really stabilize the Catholicity of your home. So what he lays out is who he was. So he was enormously humble. He was a humble priest who always put himself last. And when you put yourself last, what do you do? You, you, you. You mortify yourself, your senses, your physical body, your emotions. So he lived an extremely ascetical priesthood, ate sparingly, actually used the discipline every day of his life. He. He fought himself so he could fight for the flock. So John Vianney speaks about the surrender, the, the oblation, that parents must sort of live out this, this, this execution of themselves, these, these, these habits or tendencies to just get rid of them, to scalpel them out so they can serve the kids. But also he gets into Satan. Some people will tell you that John Vianney was one of the most attacked priests in the history of the Catholic Church. And he was, he was relentlessly attacked from Satan. Why? Because Satan was stealing his territory. Satan was stealing his souls. So one by one by one, he says, look, I. A lot of people will say that, you know, Mary is like a porcelain doll. Our lady is like a porcelain doll. She's very soft and tender. I'm saying, no. Mary followed the blood trail up Golgotha and knelt down the mud before the cross and saw her son bleed out. Well, mom and dad, are you going to be like Mary and follow the blood trail? So he talks about Mary and how Mary, he was devoted to her in her way. So really, it's his whole life. It's his magnanimous way. It's his way of working with the farmers. It's his way of preaching with no apologies, but also crying at the same time. It's like, it's last thing I'll say, Eric, and I'll shut it down. It's like my son Sean, he's. He's a stubborn kid like his dad. If I can't get something across to him that that he's, I feel he's not getting right. Then I got to stick my hand through my rib cage and yank out my heart and hold it up and say, sean, I, I love you more than this thing we're not getting right. And I would die for you, but I'm not going to stop showing you my heart. Well, John Vianney would preach hard about eternal damnation because they weren't going to mass on Sunday. They were farming in their fields. But he always wept. John Vianney always cried because he mourned for souls. So John Vianney tells moms and dads, you must mourn for your children, but they must know the truth. Mourn for them, but then lead them back to truth with joy. So it's just sort of a, it's John Vianney's life shown to moms and dads. And John Vianney had a very successful priesthood. [00:46:16] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. And do you, are your, some of your kids adults and married yet? [00:46:22] Speaker A: One's engaged, the other's in college and the other's in high school. [00:46:25] Speaker B: Okay. Okay. So I have a few. My son just got married and then I have two others that are married and I have another one who's adult and she's single, but she's, you know, out. She's, she's the oldest one, the 28 year old. And one of the things that my wife and I, I don't think any parent can. Doesn't do this, where we look back and we're like, we regret, oh, we should have done this, we should have done that. We didn't do that. And actually we, you know, there, it's like you come to the realization that I think my wife is wanting to put it like this. Like basically what you're doing as a parent is you're putting in. It's like a, it's like a bank account. You just have to put in as much as you can into it. You put everything you can into it, knowing that there's going to be withdrawals. And so you, if you put enough into it, hopefully the withdrawals won't overcome the, the, you know, your investments, your savings. And I, and I feel like that's, that's, I think when it comes down to it, how much are you investing yourselves in your kids, in their salvation? You're going to screw up. I mean, I've looked back and I, especially my first, my oldest, older kids, I'm not like I'm the perfect parent with my younger kids, but I feel at least I Know, the mistakes I made in the past, I won't make those again. I might make new ones, but I'm not making those mistakes again. But you just are like, boy, I really should have done this differently. I should have done that differently. But ultimately, and I think I've seen it, my adult kids, they've kind of recognized, like, you know, mom and dad, you're people too. We're not like, you know, we understand that, you know, we're not like, we're five anymore, and we think you're perfect and all that. And then we got disillusioned. We realize you're especially like my daughter, who has a, who has a son now. You know, she knows she's now sees it like, oh, shoot, what I do with this kid. And like, yeah, guess what? That's what we did too. That's what we were like. And so I do think there's a lot what you're saying about St. John Vianney, that he put his heart out there. He gave up. You know, he really said, okay, he gave of himself. And that ultimately we're kind of circling back to the whole beginning, which is the self sacrifice, the giving of yourself for another. And really the husband gives himself for his wife and for his kids. The wife gives herself for her husband and for the kids. And it's not guaranteed for success, but it, it really, I do think it really does help your odds and it allows graces to flow where they might not otherwise. [00:48:43] Speaker A: Yeah, I always know, Eric, at night when I stick that head on the pillow and do my little exam. And I know when I failed. I know when I've blown it. And it always centers on, I didn't give everything in my tank at this moment, at that moment, like, it's not so much of my failures, but it's, it's more of, I was lazy there. I could have stuck in more. So it, I guess it, it's always like, I didn't give all of myself. And, and that's what John Vianney did. He just gave all of himself and, and he saved hundreds of thousands of souls. I, I, and I, I think because, like, Eric, I'll say this, people will look at John Vianney, like, even priests, like, he's been rejected. So John Paul ii, Benedict John xxiii, they all wrote letters of John Vianney, and they said he's the model priest. Well, he's been shoved behind a padlocked rectory door. They're like, don't let that beast out. Keep that beast behind that door. Because he was 14 hours of confessions and. And he just. He mortified his body and. And they'll say he was neurotic or he was crazy. And I always think, no, no, you got it wrong. He loved. These were demonstrations of pouring himself out out of love. There was nothing neurotic about him. He didn't like being in the confessional when it was 80, 98 degrees in that hot French summer or 18 degrees in the cold winter. But he gave of himself because he loved souls. So again, when I. When I know I've blown it, like, it's because I didn't pour myself out enough. [00:50:16] Speaker B: Yeah. And that same with me, everything I look back when I think I didn't do something right, it was always because I put myself, my own needs above theirs. And that's always it. Ultimately, that's what comes back to, like, why did I choose that? It's because the laziness is because I chose myself over them. And I think, though, like, I think if you really take the moment and picture seeing John Vianney as a priest today, just a typical diocesan priest somewhere, I think there's a guarantee that he'd be canceled, that he would lose. You know, he would not be able to actually. He'd probably get Saint to St. Luke's the. You know, the place where they send like, the abusive priests like that. I honestly think he'd probably end up at St. Luke's or something like that because we just couldn't handle him. I'm not saying everybody, since St. Luke's is a saint vigil, Vianney. But the point is, like, he would be treated like a crazy person. He probably wouldn't get to the seminary. What are we talking about? And so it's like, that should. That's an indictment for how we're doing things today. It's not an indictment of him. It's an indictment of us. One last thing I wanted to ask you about was you mentioned her name. My daughter, one of my daughters, took St. Philomena as a confirmation saint. And I'll admit I didn't know a lot about her before then. But, like, tell us a little bit about her and what the heck she has to do with St. John Vianney. It seems like a random. You just grab somebody from the early church, like, okay, let's just throw her in there as well, because she plays a starring role in this book as well. So explain how she fits into this whole story. [00:51:43] Speaker A: John Vianney gave Philomena credit for all of his miracles. Every time something Good happened in France or in ours. He said, blame Philomena. Philomena did it through me. Philomena. So who's Philomena? Philomena was a 14 year old princess in the 4th century who was pursued sexually by the emperor, the pagan emperor Diocletian. She was a nobody. No one knew she existed. Except in 1804 they found her formerly unknown tomb in the catacomb of Priscilla in Rome. And they discovered that due to the markings on the tomb that this little, this little skeleton was a, was a martyr. I won't go into the reasons how they determined, but after her tomb was discovered 1700 years later, that's when John Vianney was a teenager. Well, Philomena began to appear in visions in the 1800s. John Vianney caught hold of these visions. Somebody spoke to John Vianney of Philomena. So here's why I want your. I'd like for I urge your viewer to get to know Philomena. Philomena. When she rejected Diocletian's advances, he said, okay, well I'm going to kill you. We're going to scourge you and then drag you through the streets and then you'll die. And so he did it. And she didn't die. So then they wrapped two anchors around her and threw in her lake and she came up two minutes later without the anchor. She didn't drown. So then he told the soldier, strap her to a tree and shoot arrows into her. She didn't die. Mystifyingly, she didn't die. So, so this is Philomena's story over and over again to different people. And by the way, many, many priests and, and saints have had a devotion to Philomena, Padre Pio being one of them. So finally Diocletian said, okay, take her head off. So when, when, when John Vianney as a young seminarian began, began to know this Philomena, he said, ah, I get it. I'm struggling in seminary. I can't pass a Latin class. I'm the forest Gump, I'm an idiot, but I want to be a priest. So Philomena was a red martyr. Well, I'm going to be a white martyr. I'm going to give my turn myself over to God and I give my priesthood to Filomena. And Philomena, he would tell you, and he, and he told many that Philomena was the one who got him through seminary and enabled him really to turn back France. Now I would argue, and I think thousands of others in 1825, France would say, no, no, Philomena is getting too much credit. John Vianney was pretty holy himself. But, but he always said Philomena was the reason for the conversion of France because she worked. I, she was my intercessor, she was my muse and she did all the holy stuff. [00:54:35] Speaker B: Right. And you have her in the book being the one that kind of tells St. John Vianney write these letters to 2025, the 2025 church. So, okay, I'm going to, I think I'm going to wrap it up there because I think we've covered most of stuff. But I just, I think, I mean, I'm sure every author says, oh, my book is for everybody. And I know your book is for everybody. I do think it's particularly though for parents, I think. And it's, it's like one of these things where a book by St. John Vianney about him is going to. Most parents will kind of gloss over it because they'll be thinking like, oh, he's must be something for priests. But this is, this really is a book for parents. I think above all, that's my personal opinion. I like I said, authors always say it's for everybody. And I'm not saying it's not for non parents, but it's definitely for parents. I think it's not. [00:55:20] Speaker A: No, it's not for everybody. It's not. I wrote book specifically for moms and dads. I'll be candid, Eric. I'll be candid. John Vianney is the patron saint of Paris priests, Leo. The. Leo XI said as much in, in 1929. I wrote this letter not for priests. I don't care if a priest reads this book. I'll be candid. I don't care. I wrote this book for moms and dads, simply. That's all. Now, now if, if someone wants to read it, I think anyone could read it and say, ah, you know what, this is pretty neat because Vianney's speaking to me 150 years after his death. So it's kind of imaginative. But yeah, this is for moms and dads. [00:55:57] Speaker B: Right? Right. So I, I encourage you. I will put a link to where you can buy it from the publisher. It's from Scepter Publishing. I'll put a link in there so people can, can click on it. Where else Kevin can people find out about like the work you're doing, your writings, your other books make it easy. Just go to KevinWells.org okay, I'll put a link to that as well. I'm just writing a note to do that. I'll put a link to your website as well. Well, thanks, Kevin. I appreciate this. This has been great. [00:56:22] Speaker A: Awesome, Eric. Thanks. It's great to be on again. [00:56:24] Speaker B: Yeah, anytime. And maybe we'll be on next baseball season or something then. Have better news at that point. I brought it up. Sorry, just had to throw it. I mean, not like the Reds are great, but. Okay. Anyway, we'll drop that. Okay, everybody, until next time. God love you.