The Pope Leo Interview

[00:00:00] Foreign Pope Leo gave his first full interview last week and many topics of interest came up, including the status of the traditional at Mass and the immutability of the Church's overall teachings, particularly on sexuality. We're going to break down what he said and whether or not we should be worried. Hello, I'm Eric Simmons, your host editor chief of Crisis magazine. Welcome to the program. Before we get started, please be sure to smash that like button to subscribe to the channel. Let other people know about what we're doing here. Also, you can subscribe to our email newsletter. Just go to crisis magazine.com put in your email address and you will get an email from us once a day. [00:00:52] We don't spam. Every once in a while we'll send out maybe a. If there's a book we think you might like, we might advertise that. But you'll get our news articles once a day in the morning. Also, you can follow us on social media. [00:01:04] Risismag. Okay, so obviously the big news in America has been the assassination of Charlie Kirk. And we've been talking about that on this program. But one thing that didn't really slip under the radar but might not got as much press as it perhaps should have, is that Pope Leo is. It was. He actually did this back in July, I think he gave his first full length interview to Elise and Allen of Crux magazine. [00:01:32] And so he had a lot to say. She's writing a biography about him. [00:01:37] And so this is going to be in the biography, obviously. But a lot of the interview was released by Crux. I'll put a. I didn't put a link yet in the show notes. I'll try to make sure I do that when we, after I'm finished here. And the interview covered a lot of subjects and I want to go over some of those and talk about them, what they kind of mean, what does this tell us about Pope Leo in the future and things of that nature? [00:02:00] But I do want to note one thing. Pope Leo has been Pope for a few months now and this is his first full length interview. There have not been very many interviews, I mean, even short ones or anything like that with Pope Leo. And that is a big contrast to his predecessor, Pope Francis, who was of course a blabbermouth. I mean, he would, he would give interviews mostly to atheists. He'd talk on the airplanes, he'd do all this stuff. And he really did talk a lot. And usually that's what got him into trouble. It usually caused all the problems is when he would just go off the cuff and say all these crazy things. Pope Leo is not like that, clearly. Different personality. [00:02:39] He's more measured. [00:02:41] He's not like, wanting to go out there and talk about everything under the sun. There's also a few other differences that we'll see when we go talk about this interview. [00:02:51] I also noted that this is something I just saw today that I think he's making. I think it's Tuesdays are going to be somewhat of a day off at the Vatican, where they're not going to be quite as busy as usual. And that's. That's quite a change from Pope Francis, who was very much a micromanager by all accounts. [00:03:09] Pope Leo definitely seems to be a little bit more laid back, a little bit more relaxed in so many different ways. But we're going to see, you know, in this interview that there are some similarities, of course, in Pope Francis. But I do think it's important, and I kind of want to get this out there before we even talk about this. I do still think that most people are trying to read and interpret Pope Leo through the lens of Pope Francis. [00:03:39] You know, Father Z famously, who's great, by the way, just make sure that's clear. [00:03:44] He kind of famously, when Pope Francis first became pope, for the first year or so, he would always talk about, like, reading Pope Francis through Pope Benedict, kind of like trying to see how they were in conjunction with each other. He finally gave up on that project because obviously there was a lot of differences. But I think it's a mistake just in general, to evaluate any pope in line just simply with his direct predecessor. It's like the same problem we have that we interpret everything in light of Vatican ii. Like all church history is somehow through this lens of Vatican ii. That's a mistake. At the same. In the same way, I would say it's a mistake to try to read and understand Pope Leo just simply in the light of Pope Francis. Obviously, Pope Francis is the one who appointed him to many of his offices, made him a cardinal, all those things. [00:04:36] And so there is a relationship between the two. It's like, you know, Pope Benedict, clearly there was a relationship with Pope John Paul ii. There's clearly a relationship between Robert Prevost, when Pope Francis alive, and Pope Leo and so, and Pope Francis, I mean, and so I do think that's. I'm not saying there's no connection, but I do think it's a mistake. Because what it does is we, every single time he says something, we're like, oh, is he Like Pope Francis or isn't he like Pope Francis? And I do it too. Don't get me wrong, I do it too. [00:05:06] But I'm just saying we got to be careful. What we really need to do is try to take a step back and just simply look at Pope Leo in light of our 2000 year tradition of the papacy, of the Pope, of church teaching, all that. [00:05:19] Okay, let me. I want to just. Basically what I'm going to do is I'm just going to talk about some of the topics that were addressed in this interview. Like, I read all the interview that was online and, you know, the questions are asked. [00:05:32] I, I didn't really like a lot of them. I don't think that. I didn't think they went that deep. They're, they're very much in line with kind of the, the modern way of looking at things in a political lens, you know, talking about c. A lot things of that nature. [00:05:48] And so one thing, there's another thing we have to be careful of. [00:05:52] Pope Leo didn't pick the questions. [00:05:55] So if we say he didn't address this or he didn't address that, or he talked about this too much, whatever, we have to remember he was being interviewed. The interviewer is the one who kind of directs the course of the interview. [00:06:07] And I thought, you know, I'm not saying she did a bad job. I'm just saying I wouldn't have asked the question she asked. I mean, some of them I would might have, but definitely a lot of them you could tell kind of her ideology, where she was coming from in the way she asked her questions. [00:06:20] Okay. I want to just, first I want to address a subject he talked about that isn't really controversial. [00:06:27] I'll get to those in a little bit. But I do think it's something that's clearly important to Pope Francis. I'm sorry, Pope Leo. I'm going to keep doing that for a while. And that's artificial intelligence. [00:06:38] I just want to address this briefly because he talks about it and we've noticed this is a very important issue for Pope Leo. Obviously, he took the name Leo partly because he felt like the artificial intelligence revolution is like the industrial revolution as far as how it will impact society, impact the labor force, impact so many different ways. And he wants the church to be at the forefront of addressing that. And I think that's wonderful and I commend him greatly for that. And I think he kind of gets. By the way, I'm writing about camera, if I announced this on the podcast or not. [00:07:13] But I'm currently under contract writing a book about basically a Catholic guide to artificial intelligence. I'm supposed to turn it in by the end of this year, and it will hopefully come out in spring of 2026. I'm a little bit nervous that Pope Leo is going to write encyclical or some major document about artificial intelligence, and I'm going to miss it somehow. But you just can't wait forever. Obviously, with artificial intelligence, it changes overnight. And so we want to get that book out there. So I'm writing that right now. So I'm very in tune to this issue. But one of the things he said was, he said, if we lose sight of the value of humanity and we think that the digital world is the be all and end all, and then the extremely rich people who are investing in artificial intelligence, totally ignoring the value of human beings and of humanity, I think the church has to speak up there. I think there's something very important there in what Pope Leo is saying is we have a danger of living in the digital world, of living online completely and really starting to have relationships with artificial intelligence. And he brings up a good point that what's happening is it is creating a very small elite that are getting more and more powerful. I don't know if you heard the. Or solve the interview Tucker Carlson had with Sam Altman, which I thought was a little bit odd on both sides, but he kind of talks about, like, to Sam Altman, like, who? Sam Alton, by the way, is the founder and head of OpenAI, the people do chat GBT, one of the most powerful AI people in the world. [00:08:43] Tucker Carlson's kind of like, do you realize how much power you're going to have and you already are having does that, like, can you sleep at night with that? And I think Pope Leo is bringing this up that like, there's going to be a few, a few people who are going to. Who are gathering a lot of power. It's like what happened with social media when Mark Zuckerberg gained a lot of power. Jack Dorsey gained a lot of power because of social media. [00:09:06] So he says our human life makes sense not because of artificial intelligence, but because of human beings and encounter being with one another, creating relationships and discovering those human relationships. Also the presence of God, it's going to be very difficult, our Holy Father says, to discover the presence of God in AI in human relationships, we can find at least signs of the presence of God. [00:09:29] I think this is something. I'm going to talk about this in my book, my upcoming book. Is that there's a real danger. [00:09:36] There's multiple dangers with artificial intelligence. [00:09:39] Some of them are economic. But I think the crux of it, pardon the pun, and the one that Pope Leo is looking at, is will we lose our humanity? Will we be able to relate to each other and see the image of God in each other? Or will we live completely digital lives where we're interacting with people who aren't even real? Already on social media, a lot of people you're interacting with, accounts aren't actually people. They're bots. They're artificial intelligence. And will that continue? [00:10:06] And I thought this was very interesting. Something else Pope Leo said. He goes, someone recently asked authorization to create an artificial me so that anybody could sign onto this website and have a personal audience with the Pope. But this artificial intelligence Pope would give answers to their questions. And I said, I'm not going to authorize that. If there's anybody who should not be represented by an avatar, I would say the Pope is high on that list. I thought that was a great comment by the Pope. I'm so glad. Maybe Catholic Answers should have thought in that way before they created their Father Justin Artificial intelligence. Sorry about the little dig or Catholic answers that we all make our missteps, but I mean, he recognizes there's this movement to try to create like celebrity AIs, like you can talk to Taylor Swift or whoever, but it's really an AI who takes her songs or what she says and turns it into like a somebody you can have a relationship with. You could do that with the Pope. And he's like, no, we're not going to do that. And I think it's great. I also want to know, he does not say he's completely against artificial intelligence. He said he thinks some of the advances are great. So I really do hope he writes an encyclical on this either before I finish writing my book or a long time afterwards. So, Holy Father, if you're listening to this, you know, check in with me if you could before you write that. But anyway, that's kind of a non controversial part of this interview, but let's start getting some of the. More of the meat of it. [00:11:27] Throughout the interview, in certain places, particularly Pope Leo is asked political questions. And it's pretty. And he brings up immigration. [00:11:37] It's pretty obvious. And we kind of knew this from before he became Pope, from some things he said. He's pretty open borders. He's pretty much in line with Pope Francis, maybe not that extreme, but he's close. He. He's he's of the. The ilk of more open borus, which, let's be honest, is the viewpoint of most Catholic bishops probably around the world. [00:12:02] I'm sure if you pull most of the Catholic bishops in America and in Europe, most of them would be leaning more towards open borders. There might be some spectrum there, but. But he clearly leans towards a more open immigration policy than, for example, our current administration here in America feels. He says, in fact, one of the last conversations I had with the Vice President of the United States, I have not had direct conversations or met with the president. I talked about human dignity and how important that is for all people wherever you're born, and hopefully to find ways to respect human beings and the way we treat them, the policies and choices we make. Note he didn't say, like, it's very. Sometimes you'll hear Catholic leaders say, you know, human dignity for all people, no matter what their state of life is, you know, from conception to natural death. Talking about against abortion, euthanasia. He brings up wherever they're born, you're born, meaning, of course, immigrants, people who might be born in another country, coming to your country. [00:13:00] He also says something that Francis did towards the end of his pontificate, which I think is very significant, was the letter he wrote about the issue of the treatment of immigrants. I was very happy to see how the American bishops picked that up, and some of them were courageous enough to go with that. So we see clearly Pope Leo is more open in his attitude towards immigration than, let's say, the Trump administration is. [00:13:28] Also, he doesn't really seem to be that much of a fan of Trump. He's smart enough not to say anything too directly about this, but just the way when he's asked about Trump, he kind of sidesteps it and talks about, yeah, I might talk to him, might not. It's up to him. [00:13:40] I mean, he's clearly not going out of his way to praise Donald Trump in any way. [00:13:45] And so I think it's pretty clear. I don't think Pope Leo's politics are as extreme as Pope Francis are. But he's clearly not his brother either, the one who's the Trump supporter. [00:13:58] And here's the thing I think is most important with this. [00:14:02] I don't care. [00:14:04] I really don't care. And I don't think any Catholic should care that much about the politics of the current pope, no matter who the Pope may be, whether it be John Paul ii, Pope Benedict xvi, Francis or Leo, or whomever. [00:14:20] The papacy is not a political office for Catholics like I get. It's a political office. He's the vicar. I'm sorry, he's the head of. The monarch of the Vatican. He's a head of state, all that. I'm not claiming there's no politics involved. What I'm saying, though, is the Pope's opinions about the internal politics of another country are really pretty irrelevant. [00:14:43] And so I said this when Pope Leo was elected, that I didn't really care that much what his politics might end up being. And I still don't. Yeah, I would love it if the Pope had the same politics as me, but. Because maybe it would convince some few people. [00:14:59] But I don't think there's any obligation for Catholics to share the political views of the Pope. Yes, our faith absolutely should shape our political views. There's no question about that. [00:15:16] But it's up to us as laypeople to determine the best way that happens in our own world, in our own country, in our own city, our own communities. [00:15:28] And we have a lot of freedom when it comes to that. We don't all have to be in lockstep and say, okay, every single Catholic has to have the exact same immigration policy or something like that. Yes, there are certain intrinsic evils that we must oppose. Gay marriage, transgenderism, abortion, things like that. But there's a whole host of things. [00:15:51] Economic issues, immigration, military size, things like that. Those things it's up to us to debate. So, honestly, is Pope Leo probably pretty liberal in an American sense, politically? Yeah, I think so, but I don't really care. I don't think it's. I don't think it's that relevant, to be honest. [00:16:15] Okay, so let me move on to another topic. So we talk about politics, and that is. This is something I thought was wonderful, what the Pope said on this, and that's what his role is as the Pope. What does he think the role of the Pope is? [00:16:28] I don't feel the need to complicate my role because my role is announcing the good news, preaching the gospel. [00:16:36] So in one sense, I don't see my primary role as trying to be the solver of the world's problems. [00:16:42] Whoa. That is literally the opposite of his predecessor. [00:16:46] And it's somewhat the opposite of what a lot of Catholics seem to think these days. [00:16:51] The Pope's primary role is not to solve the world's problems. Amen, Pope Leo. Amen. You are absolutely right. He's not supposed to say, okay, how should Europe's. What should Europe's immigration policies be? What should America's economic policies be, what should Japan's, you know, social policies be? All this type of stuff. That's not his role. He will get involved in politics at times. Obviously he needs in preaching the gospel. The gospel, preaching the good news. It impacts our political sphere. But he's there to be more of a stating, like first principles, like the dignity of human life, the importance of family and marriage between a man and woman, which I'll mention he talks about here in a minute. [00:17:38] These are the things the Pope should be talking about, not being like, okay, can I solve this problem or that problem now? Yes. Sometimes the Pope might even get directly involved. Like, I know Pope Leo himself has said he'd be willing to be a negotiator, maybe a mediator in the war in the Middle east or in the, or in Ukraine or something of that nature. [00:17:59] But ultimately that's still more above politics and things of that nature. He's not trying to solve the world's problems. He's trying to help us solve them, these problems. I think this is such a change from Pope Francis. It's such a brush breath of fresh air. [00:18:14] Because that was one of my biggest complaints about Pope Francis was that he constantly seemed to be focused on worldly issues and he seemed to rarely talk about the gospel, talk about spiritual matters. It seemed he just kept on returning to political issues, worldly issues. And Pope Leo, we already can tell after four or five months in now. How many months is this? [00:18:39] Five months in now? [00:18:41] No, four months in, sorry, about four months in that he's not interested in doing, in following in those footsteps. And I think this is great because that is the primary duty of the Vicar of Christ is to proclaim the good news, to preach the gospel. And I think he's done that much more. He's focused on that much more than his predecessor did. [00:19:01] Okay, now let's start talking about some of the kind of hot button issues that he addressed that were asked of him. [00:19:06] He was asked about women's ordination, particularly about women deacons. This is a big thing that happened during the synods. Remember at one point it was like thought that, oh, the synod will definitely declare for women deacons. People were saying that the sky is falling, we're going to have women deacons. It might mean the end of the church. And you know, what, what does this mean? And all that stuff I talked about on this podcast, I even put a bet with Tim Gordon that they wouldn't do it. And I, and I won that bet. [00:19:32] But the point is, is that it's kind of you know, that's why this is a perfect example of a dumb question, because women's ordination shouldn't even be asked of the Pope. It's a dumb question to ask, but he was asked and he said what the synod had spoken about specifically was the ordination perhaps of women deacons, which has been a question that's been studied for many years now. There have been different commissions appointed by different popes to say, what can we do about this? [00:19:59] I think this. That will continue to be an issue. I, at the moment, don't have an intention of changing the teaching of the church on this topic. [00:20:06] So what we see here is he kind of says, yeah, we've been talking about this for a long time. I felt like there was a little bit of frustration, like, we've just been talking and talking, talking about this for a long time. Can we just give it a rest? [00:20:15] But he says he has no intention of changing the teaching of church on topic. Now, there is something about the way he worried this. It's a little bit concerning, which we're going to talk about more in a minute, which is. He makes it sound like he could change it if he wanted to, but he's just playing not to. But the important thing is, is he simply says, we're not changing women deacons. Ain't happening under my watch. That in so many words, is what he's saying. And obviously that's a good thing because, you know, Pope Francis may. It sound like it was an open question. It was never an open question, of course, under JP2 or Benedict. [00:20:48] And it sounds like it's not an open question under Leo, that he's just simply not going to change it, which does really. I know the. The language he uses. Like I said, I'm going to talk about this in a minute. [00:20:59] I know it sound. It can sound. It can be a bit concerning. It makes it sound like, well, maybe a future pop can. But ultimately, it does throw a big bucket of cold water on the women's ordination people, because it's basically saying, you can complain all you want, you can cry all you want, but ultimately, you know, nothing's happening on this front while I'm Pope, so. So that's. That's a very good thing. [00:21:24] Then, of course, he was asked about LGBTQ issues, which. Framing it in that way. That's another criticism I had with the interviewer framing it that way. There is no such thing as an LGBTQ Catholic. There's no such thing as a gay Catholic. That identity is false. You are a Catholic. You are Made in the image and likeness of God. [00:21:43] Your perversions or your disorders do not identify you. That is just ridiculous. Like saying somebody is a robber Catholic or an adulterer Catholic. You just. That's not the way it works. But he's asked about it. [00:21:58] He said, you know, basically, the most important thing, as you can tell, he's trying to avoid controversy is any issue dealing with LGBTQ questions is highly polarizing within the Church. For now, because of what I've already tried to demonstrate and live out in terms of my understanding of being Pope at this time in history, I'm trying not to continue to polarize or promote polarization in the Church. [00:22:20] That's his mo. [00:22:22] That's CMO of Pope Leo is. He's trying to avoid polarization, as you say. He's trying to bring unity. I want to come back to this in a moment because that's very. That's a very important thing to note in understanding this interview. But I want to move on to the more important thing, which ties into what I was just talking about, women deacons. [00:22:40] Pope Leo continues. He says people want the Church doctrine to change. This has to do with LGBTQ stuff. Want attitudes to change. I think we have to change attitudes before we even think about changing what the Church says about any given question. [00:22:56] I find it highly unlikely, certainly in the near future, that the Church's doctrine, in terms of what the Church teaches about sexuality, what the Church teaches about marriage, will change. I want to repeat that part. I find it highly unlikely, certainly in the near future, that the Church's doctrine, in terms of what the Church teaches about sexuality, what the Church teaches about marriage will change. [00:23:21] Now, this. This struck me when I read. When I first read it, because, honestly, it is a little bit concerning because it makes it sound like the Church could change her teaching on marriage, on sexuality, which, of course, we know as Catholics, is a metaphysical impossibility. [00:23:41] The Church could no more say that two men can get married to each other than a man could say he's a woman. It just simply is impossible. [00:23:51] But yet Pope Leo's language does make it sound like he's saying it's a possibility. [00:23:58] It is very confusing. [00:24:00] I will say that I did not like the way he worded this. [00:24:03] Now, that being said, I've already seen people go into full Pope Francis mode. Full. Oh, the sky is falling. We have a heretic Pope. See, I told you so. Tread ink. How dare you even run. Cover him for him for a second. This is just Francis 2.0, blah, blah, blah. [00:24:20] But the fact is, is that again, what is he really saying? It ain't going to change. Under my watch, I saw somebody said this is kind of the Midwestern American way of talking. And as a Midwestern American, I know what he's. I know what he means by that, in that you don't say things bluntly. From where we come from, you typically word things in a nice way. You word things in a way that makes it sound like, okay, I just want, you know, everybody can kind of take something away from this, but I'm making my statement, but I'm trying to do it in such a way that it doesn't really upset or offend anyone. That's just a natural thing in the Midwest, in America, for a lot of people. So it's perhaps that's exactly what he's doing here. [00:25:04] What is most important here is that he's not going to change church teaching. It sounds like. I mean, he can't. We know that, but he's not going to try. Even I do think, and I want to make sure it's clear I'm not pope explaining here, I do think it. It was unfortunate that he said that the way he said it, because it does what it does. It does give. [00:25:26] It gives a certain amount of ammunition to the bad guys in the sense that it's telling them, hey, Father James Martin, I'm not really comfortable changing church teaching this, but keep working at it, change those attitudes, and probably eventually it will change, or it might change, but you know, just keep working on changing his attitudes. It's almost like he's saying to people like St. Paul, James Martin, stop trying to change church teaching and instead just work on changing people's attitudes towards this. [00:25:55] Which of course is terrible because it's like sometimes Catholics idea that, like, church teaching is all that matters in the sense that in real life, all that matters is what the official teaching of the Church is. And I go through this a lot in my book Deadly Indifference. What matters a lot is attitudes, because that's what leads people to hell or heaven, as the case may be, the Church might have a teaching on the books that is officially true and doesn't contradict Christ. Odd stuff. But if the man, if the Catholic in the pew believes a bunch of false things because he's been led to believe that by church leaders, that can be very dangerous. And we see that, of course, in the issue of homosexuality, that even though the teaching of the Church has never changed and never will change in homosexuality, it doesn't really matter if most bishops and priests are preaching an anti gospel that is supportive of homosexuality. And Pope Leo does seem to be kind of allowing for this to happen. [00:26:52] And so I do think that was very unfortunate that he did that. But again, ultimately, let's go back to the important point, which is he's saying it's not going to change. And then he also says, I think it's very important to remember, he talks about the family, particularly an actual family of mother, father, and children. He says families need to be supported. What they call the traditional family. Oh, my gosh. A Pope actually said the T word without it being an insult. [00:27:19] What they call the traditional family, the family, is father, mother, and children. I think that the role of the family in society, which has at times suffered in recent decades, once again has to be recognized, strengthened. That's exactly what we want, right from our church leaders. That's what we want our Pope saying. He's making it very clear people are agitating for all this LGBT stuff and whatever, but what matters the most is that we strengthen the family, which is a father, mother, and children. He makes it very clear it's not two dudes who are, you know, buying children like a slave market. [00:27:58] It is a mother, a father, and their children. [00:28:02] And that needs to be strengthened. That needs to be recognized. So I was very happy about that. And I do think this is something that's very different, again, from Pope Francis. I know I'm comparing Pope Francis a lot myself, and I said, let's not do that too much, but, okay, I'm being a hypocrite maybe. [00:28:17] But the point here is that Pope Francis almost went out of his way to only focus on the abnormal. The. The. The. The. The people who are outside of doing what the Church teaches. And he would even insult and kind of demean, like, the, you know, the breeding like rabbits comment. Families who did follow the Church's teaching had big families and really were faithful to the church. Pope Leo is saying, no, we need to strengthen those people. We need to reach out to them. We need to make sure that they're recognized. The father, mother, children, families, the strong families. And we need to protect them. Them. And I think that's a great thing. I'm very happy Pope Leo said this, and this is actually a great example why we don't read Pope Leo through the lens of Pope Francis. Yes, what he first said was unfortunately said, and I would criticize him for that. But he brings it back to the most important point, which is a true family. Not gay marriage or anything like that, but a True family of mother, father and children. That's what he's looking at as the most important thing. [00:29:15] Okay, then, so the next, the, probably the last big topic that he talked about that's controversial for, particularly for us here in this audience, is the Traditional Latin Mass. [00:29:27] He's asked about it and he says there's another issue which is also another hot button issue, which I've already received a number of requests and letters about. First of all, I think that's awesome. [00:29:36] The question about people always say the Latin Mass, quote, unquote. Well, you can say the Mass in Latin right now. If it's the Vatican ii, right? There's no problem. [00:29:46] Obviously, between the Trinitine Mass and the Vatican II Mass, the Mass of Paul vi, I'm not sure where that's going to go. It's obviously very complicated. First of all, I just, I'm getting a little confused. I wish people would determine what are the names we're supposed to give each of the two Masses. The, the Latin Mass or the Traditional Mass and Novus Ordo. They use so many different terms. I mean, we had the Extraordinary Form, Ordinary form, we had the massive of Paul vi, the massive Pius V. Wherever we have now the, the Trinity Mass and the Vatican II Mass. [00:30:17] I wish they'd make up their mind and just tell us, okay, here are the two names we're going to give them for each one so we can all just stop wondering what the next name is going to be given to it. But he says something. There is a, that's a little bit of a, like, it really turns your head and you're like, wait, what? [00:30:33] He said, well, you can say the Mass in Latin right now. If it's the Vatican ii, right, there's no problem. Wait, what are you telling me that if a parish priest, associate pastor, maybe at St. Suburbia's in the middle of Dubuque, says, I'm going to say the no sword in Latin. There's no problem. [00:30:51] Well, that's a news flash because we all know exactly what would happen if he did that. [00:30:58] There would be a bunch of complaints sent to the parish and then sent to the chancery downtown. [00:31:03] And the bishop would intervene and say, you got to cut that out asap. I mean, that's what happened when certain priests start saying the Mass in Ad Orientum. We had to happen here in Cincinnati, where some young priests were getting excited. They started saying that the Novus or at Orientum. And the bishop, who wasn't a bad bishop, this is our previous bishop and our current one he said, no, can't do that. Not allowed to say that Mass. No. Sort of ad orientum. [00:31:28] So, I mean, it's kind of funny. You can look at this two ways. One is that Pope Leo is a little clueless about what it's like on the streets, in the pews, at parishes, because we all know you can't say the Mass, Novus Ordo, the Vatican II Mass, where it's called in Latin without getting in a lot of trouble. Or two, we could look at like, hey, Pope Leo just said something to give everybody permission. All you priests out there, parish priests, when you say the Mass in Latin and your bishop, your chancery, whoever comes down and calls you about it, say, hey, Pope Leo literally said, there's no problem. So what's the problem? [00:32:07] I mean, I think I just feel like that was a real weird thing for him to say, to be honest, because we all know it's not just a matter of novus ordo in traditional Latin Mass, it's the novus ordo has to be said in a very specific way. It has to be said versus populum. It has to be said in the vernacular. Has to. You know, we don't want to have communion rails. We don't want to have communion in the tongue. All those things. They're not really looked upon kindly either. [00:32:39] Okay, so then Pope Leo continues, though he says, I have not had the chance to really sit down with a group of people who are advocating for the trinityne rite. There's an opportunity coming up soon, and I'm sure there will be occasions for that. But that is an issue that I think also maybe with C, we have to sit down and talk about. [00:33:00] And I think, honestly, this really gave me a lot of hope because the number one thing about Pope Francis when he came to traditionalists was he had zero desire to. To ever talk with them. All his talk about citadelity, all his talk about let's get together and dialogue. He never extended the hand of friendship or the hand of dialogue to traditionalists. All he did was attack them, demean them, and ignore them. I mean, there was a he. When did he ever get back to the Dubia cardinals? He literally mocked Cardinal Burke when he got Covid. I mean, all these things that Francis did were just horrible towards traditionalists. But most importantly, he never talked to them ever. [00:33:44] He never gave them a hearing. Yes, he'd meet with the head of The Fraternity of St. Peter, something like that, for a perfunctory meeting, but he never really sat down, said to traditionalists, okay, what Are your concerns. What's the issue here? Let's try to work something out. Pope Leo's making it very clear he's not going to go in that direction. He is going to talk with traditionalists. He is going to talk to defenders of the Traditional Latin Mass. [00:34:10] He's already had a meeting with Cardinal Burke and he just had a meeting with Cardinal Seurat. And so I think this is a huge sign for hope for the Traditional Latin Mass. I'm not saying I think Poplio is going to rescind tradition as custodas tomorrow, but I am saying it's a good sign that he's willing to talk to us because I think when he does, he will see were not the boogeyman that Pope Francis and Cardinal Roche and others created about us. What I would love is he would sit down with a few traditional priests, but also some traditional lay people, talk to some laypeople about this. I mean, heck, get Peter Kwasnski on the plane out there to talk to him. By the way, I just want to make a little aside. Matt Fradd interviewed Peter Kwasniewski on Pints with Aquinas. I think it's coming out today or it's coming out very soon. And Matt France has the second best interview he ever did behind Peter Kreeft. [00:35:02] So I encourage you to watch that. Go watch Pints with a Colinas with Peter Kwasnski when it comes out. But seriously, Pope Leo, why don't you meet with somebody like Peter Kwasniewski? Doesn't have to be him necessarily, although he's one of our top people, Joseph Shaw, just watch Mass of the Ages and grab a couple people from that and talk to them. Tim Flanders, you got. Yeah, you got people to choose from and just sit down and listen. And I guarantee you, I guarantee you, somebody like Peter Kwasnski, somebody like Timothy Flanders, somebody like Joseph Shaw and others, I don't want to leave. I'm not trying to leave anybody out. I guarantee they would be super respectful. [00:35:43] They would be. They would be very understanding of your role as the Pope and what you can and cannot do. [00:35:50] And I just think that would be wonderful. So if anybody at the Vatican is watching this, put that in the Pope's ear. I think it's great you're meeting with Cardinal Burke. The Pope is. I think it's great the Pope is meeting with Cardinal Seurat and others like that. And I think it's just great that he's willing to meet with people, traditionalists, to talk about the Way forward. So I think that was. Honestly, of everything said in this interview, that's the one that I was most excited about, that gave me the most hope was when he said he's willing to meet with traditional. Sit down with him. Them. [00:36:17] Now, those are kind of the major topics. But what I want to also mention is something I noticed. If you read the interview, if you go through it, what you notice, there's a certain thread that goes through it all. And it really is exactly what I've been saying since Pope Leo was elected and other people have been saying to. I'm not the only one. [00:36:37] And that is, Pope Leo sees himself as a unifier. He. He was elected to unify the faction, so to speak, within the Catholic Church. Now, I've already been on record that I don't necessarily think that's going to be successful and can be successful because there's too much of a divide between a, you know, let's say a society of Saint Pius X and a James Martin and a fraternity priest and Novus Ordo bishop and all that. I think there's, there's just you. You can't really unify things that are not able to be unified. You can't unify truth with error, for example. But I do think this is the number one concern and mission of Pope Leo is to unify the factions within the Catholic Church he talks about throughout the interview. [00:37:24] They talk about polarization a lot. [00:37:27] And that's. He. That's the context. He's talking about the LGBTQ stuff, the traditionalist stuff, the tlm, all that stuff is polarization, that he's trying to kind of bring people together and reduce the heat, so to speak. [00:37:43] He ties it into synodality. He says synodality is an attitude and openness, a willingness to understand. [00:37:49] Speaking of the church now, this means each and every member of the church has a voice and a role to play through prayer, reflection, through a process. Now, I, along with many others, said Synodality is a 100 sham. Under Pope Francis, it was all a bunch. It was a cover for a dictatorial way of running a church. [00:38:09] I think it's possible under Pope Leo. He really means it. Now, I don't personally, I want to make clear I don't think synodality is the way forward, even a good synodality. I'm just simply saying under Pope Leo, it might be better because we all knew when the synods happened, for example, what always happened, the bishops who came and the others who came were all cherry picked. They were mostly on one side of the issue. And always the bad side. [00:38:32] And so it wasn't really a synodality. Bishop Strickland wasn't invited to these synods. [00:38:38] And so we saw that very clearly. And I'm hopeful that Pope Leo at least will talk to. Won't ostracize the Orthodox, the traditional elements of the Church, when he's doing this. [00:38:51] But he really sees his role as reducing polarization above everything. [00:38:56] I mean, I do have a problem with that because I don't think that's the ultimate thing. Our Lord Jesus Christ, that's not what he came to do. He did not come to reduce polarization. He did not come to dialogue. He came to say, repent the kingdom of God is a hand, believe in the gospel. He came to bring the truth and preach and proclaim the truth. That's really what a Pope should do most of all. A Pope, yes, I get the idea, you know, pontiff is the bridge builder and all that. I'm not saying the Pope shouldn't be a source of unity. That is one of the main purposes of the papacy. [00:39:27] But it's always unity and truth. Always unity and truth. But I do think that we're simply living in an era of the Church where dialogue is elevated to this, the highest ideal. I talk about this in my book, Deadly Indifference about dialogue, how it was introduced into the vocabulary. The church became the ultimate mission above proclamation of the gospel. It became dialogue. And I do think Pope Leo, you know, kind of buys into that sum. Honestly, when I read this interview, when I look at it, I honestly think, wow, Pope Leo sounds exactly like what he is, a typical American bishop. Now, I know some people will hear that and think I'm getting this great insult to Pope Leo. I'm not. That's not my opinion of the American bishops isn't that they're all a bunch of heretics. They're all terrible. [00:40:19] My idea is there's a few. There's a few awful, terrible American bishops. There's a few very good American bishops. But on the whole, most of them are average. They are rel. They're basically orthodox, but they're very much in keeping with the world. And the way they talk, in trying to, you know, make friends with the world, you know, not be attacked too much, things of that nature, have a comfortable relationship with. With the powers that be outside the church. I think that, frankly, Poplio sounds exactly like that. And that's not the worst thing. It's far, far better than Francis. It's also something we can work with. And we saw that in America When Tradition Traditionus custodis came down, most American bishops didn't want anything to do with it. They did not want to shut down the traditional Latin Mass. I'm willing to bet that if, if Pope Leo was just like the Bishop of Kalamazoo when, when tradition custodians came down, he'd basically be like that. He'd be like most of the bishops in that. He'd, he'd allow, he continued to allow church like, Mass. He might restrict it a little bit, but he wouldn't try to shut it all down. He wouldn't pull Cardinal Cupich or Bishop Martin or something like that. So I think that's just kind of what we have as the Pope. And if that, if that makes you all of a sudden think like, oh, my gosh, the end of the world is coming, the church is awful, that he's not really the Pope, and stuff like that, you really need to understand the role of the papacy and what it is. And fortunately, I have a, a podcast coming out later this week where I interview somebody about the idea of papal minimalism, the idea of having a proper understanding of the role of the Pope in the church. So I encourage you to watch my next podcast, which will be on papal minimalism. That hopefully will kind of calm people down a little bit and not, I mean, I just, I feel like a lot of people are okay with Pope Leo and they're being very mature about. But there's some segments, of course, that really just want to make him Francis 2.0 and want to say the sky is falling. The sky is not falling. There are problems in the church. Most of our bishops, their way of looking at things is a bit off kilter, we'll say. And Pope Leo, that's true of him at times, but at the same time, he's saying he's not going to change church teaching. He's talking about the importance of the family. He's talking about, like, we need to talk with the traditionalists about the Trinity and rite and work something out. Those are all good things, and we should, we should be happy about that. [00:42:37] Okay, so let's do some comments from the live chat. Thank you. By the way, everybody who joins me on the live chat on Tuesday afternoons, TK o' Rourke says priests can say the no sword in Latin and reference Pope Leo's interview. Like others use the spirit of a free innovation. I love that. Yes, absolutely. T.K. that's, that's a great point. I mean, I do think, I mean, it depends on your relationship with your bishop. And all that stuff. But I do think priest should use Pope Leo's use of Latin that he's using in, in the liturgy, in Novus Ordo liturgy. And what he says here is like, hey, I can introduce some Latin. The Pope wants it, so I'm going to do it as well. [00:43:13] Andromeda says in the Diocese of Tulsa, the diocesan parishes that have used the Latin Mass, now one left, they are moving to the Novus Ordo in Latin and calling and calling both the Latin Mass. That's interesting. I did not know that. I mean, he kind of says that like, you know, the Latin Mass, it could be the. No, sort of in Latin. We all know, of course, when people say the Latin Mass, what they mean is the Mass that has always been said in Latin, because we know the Novus order has mostly been said in the vernacular, not in Latin. And so. But hey, if, if the nosaurus started being said in Latin more, I think it'd be a great thing. Honestly, my opinion, that's like the least important part of what needs to be changed. But, you know, it's a step in the right direction because it would be like a gateway drug in a lot of ways. The traditional Latin Mass, Marcia says it isn't just about the traditional master Novus Ordo, it's about the church's entire ecclesiology. Yes, you're absolutely right, Marcia. I. I'm glad you brought that up because, you know, when he talks about it just is when he. He also said in the interview, I did not quote this. I forgot to write this down. But I did post about. On X, Pope Leo says something to. I think it's Poplio said. Yeah, something effect of like the two Masses aren't that different. [00:44:27] No, they are. They really are. [00:44:30] They're very different. [00:44:32] If you just say the Novus Ordo in Latin ad orientum, communion in tongue, altar rails, all that stuff, that's all great. And I encourage that all priests who can do that. [00:44:46] But it's still not the same thing as the traditional Latin Mass. The prayers are just very different. The whole ethos behind it is very different. [00:44:54] And that's really the crux of the matter. This is why Pope Francis was so upset about the traditional at Mass, traditions, communities, because he saw that was a different ecclesiology, a different theology in a lot of ways from what he saw. And so Marcia brings up a very good point that is about church's entire ecclesiology. Can the Pope change church doctrine? [00:45:15] You know, can we just go from saying gay marriage is obviously wrong to saying, well, I guess it's okay. No, we can't. And so we really just need to always continue to pray and fast and work to educate, catechize our fellow Catholics about what the church really teaches and about the fact that church teaching cannot change. Yes, it can develop, but it cannot change from X to not X. That's the most important thing to remember about this. And I don't think that Pope Leo is saying it can, but definitely some of his language is open to that interpretation. I'll be the first to admit that. So let's pray and fast for him. Obviously, Pope Leo, our Holy Father, and that he, you know, that he would be open, traditional at Mass, he would be very clear about not changing church teaching, and he would help those who think church teaching can be changed to recognize the error of their ways. That's really what. What we want more than anything. Okay, I'm going to cut it off there. I appreciate everybody who checked in live. Until next time, everybody. God love you.