The Mystery of the Stigmata (Guest: Paul Kengor)

[00:00:10] Speaker A: The stigmata holds a special place in the history of catholic mysticism, as well as in the catholic imagination. What exactly is this gift, and why does God give it to some people? That's what we're going to talk about today on crisis point. Hello, I'm Eric Simmons, your host, the editor chief of Crisis magazine. Before we get started, I just want to encourage people to hit that, like, button, subscribe to the channel, let other people know about it. Tell people about our podcast. We appreciate everybody who has subscribed and likes and likes the different episodes. Also, you can follow us on social media rsismag. Go to our website, putting your email address, and we will send you our email newsletter once a day. That's crisismagazine.com. just putting your email newsletter. We have a crisis writer with us today, among other things that he does, Paul Kingor. He's a professor of political science at Grove City College and executive director of the Vision for Vision and Values. He's the editor of the American Spectator, an excellent online publication as well. And he's the author of more than 20 books, including his most recent, the Stigmatist. Their gifts, their revelations, their warnings. Here, I have it right here. And I was telling Paul right before we got on that I get books sent to me a lot. And sometimes I read them, sometimes I don't, sometimes I kind of go through them. But I was like, okay, this one, first of all, because you wrote, because Paul wrote it, and also because the topic, I was like, I got it. I got to read this. And I read it. I mean, about as cover to cover as you can get when you're very busy and doing other stuff. I, it took me less than a week, which is pretty, pretty fast for me, to get through a book. And, and it just, because it was, it was enthralling. So welcome to the program, Paul. [00:01:45] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. Thanks so much, Eric. And it's, I'm proud to be a contributing editor to Crisis, which is one of my favorite publications. So in the morning, I check, in fact, I can see him up here on my thing. I check about six different publications. One of them is the american spectator, which, as you said, I'm the editor, so I need to check that one. I always check crisis every day. Never miss it on vacation, whatever. So it is, it's a great publication, and you're really carrying on the tradition. You've been a, an excellent editor. [00:02:14] Speaker A: Oh, thank you. I really appreciate that. Okay, so we're going to talk about the stigmata today, and I will say that I've had a long fascination with this. I'm devoted to St. Francis. You see right behind me is the statue of St. Francis embracing our Lord, the crucified Lord. And I just, you know, when I was, when I became Catholic, I was debating between Saint John the Baptist or St. Francis of Assisi for my confirmation name. I went with St. John the Baptist, which I'm happy to do that, but also St. Francis. I've always really been attracted to him. And, of course, the stigmata is part of that. But before we get too much into St. Francis specifically, why don't we just kind of define our terms and kind of say, what is the stigmata? What do we mean by that? [00:02:59] Speaker B: Yeah, thanks. Your reaction? A lot like mine. So when I get sent a lot of books, and frankly, a lot of them aren't very good, I could talk, we could do a whole hour on publishing. Right. I mean, there's a lot of bad stuff that's being put out there today. And if I do find a book that I like, reading it for me fast would be about a week, because. Because it takes me, I like to take the time to read it, go through it, and this book would have had, I would have had the same reaction as a topic that's always fascinated me, and I've always looked for a serious work on stigmata. And it's hard to find them. It's hard to find any books at all. In fact, when I was doing a lot of how I came about doing the research on this was through biographies of the different stigmatists that, that I, that I write about. But to try to find a book on stigmata, there aren't many. There's, there's very, very few. There's very few studies. So they are kind of generally defined. They would be, you know, some people, some individuals, very saintly, very holy, very pious individuals, have been gifted with this, with the markings of Christ, the stigmata. And to quote from St. Paul in Galatians, I bear in my body the marks of Jesus Christ, which some say the Greek from that stigmata are the, are the marks that we're talking about. In fact, some people think that St. Paul might have been the first stigmatist, and two of the stigmatists that I quote in the book, neither is a saint, but they're both in the process of canonization. Anne Catherine Emmerich and Therese Newman, who are two of the most famous visionaries in the history of the church. They claim to have visions and be able to see things in the past that happened with the disciples with the life of Jesus, with the life of Mary. They both said that in seeing images of St. Paul, they said, actually, he was the first stigmatist. So when we read that in the Bible, he's not just talking about being shipwrecked, being lashed, being put out to sea, and the other things that we think of, he's not just speaking figuratively. He actually had the markings of Christ. And then they both said, but other than Paul, the first or the next one comes a millennium later with St. Francis of Assisi. And we're doing this pre recording this interview shortly after the 800th anniversary of Francis receiving the stigmata, which was September 17, 1224. So he would have been. He would have been the first following Paul if Paul was first. And then after that, there are a few down through the centuries. Catherine of Siena, she's the COVID girl in the book. She's the one receiving the stigmata. St. Rita of Cassia, who received just one marking. She received a single crown from the. From the thorn, the crown of thorns of Jesus. Lucy of Narnia. Who's inspired the Lucy of Narnia of Cs Lewis Chronicles of Narnia. She was actually from the town Narnia in Italy. She was a stigmatist. There were a bunch of them in the 14 hundreds, 15 hundreds. And then in more recent centuries, there have been more. And some people might say, well, maybe we know about it more often today. And what's great is we have pictures and videos today in many cases. But it seems, Eric, that there just are more cases. In fact, one of the few authorities that I quote, Michael Freese, who did a book that's now 30 or 40 years old, I think he was the one that said, the 20th century is probably the era of the stigmatists. There are so many. I have seven individual chapters and individual stigmatists that I profile. And it's striking me right now, just as I'm saying this, I think four of them died in the 19 hundreds. Padre Pio, Faustina Kowalska, this little calabrian nun named Elena Aiello, therese Newman, died in the. In the 19 hundreds. So there have been more lately. And I think it's because they have, and this is the other part of this study that fascinated me. They have things to tell us. And it's, for me, it was fascinating enough that they were marked by Christ, studied, investigated, doubted. Vatican officials, teams of officials, priests, bishops came and visited them. Secular doctors and psychiatrist. These people put through the wringer. So for one thing, it was striking enough that these people had the markings of Christ. Now I'm all eyes right now. You have my attention. And then when they would make these extraordinary statements about visions and prophecies, now I really want to pay attention because if the guy down the street who lives down the street from me in Grove City is claiming to talk to the Virgin Mary or Jesus or seeing things from the first century, I could be like, yeah, all right, Jim, whatever. But if he starts bleeding from his hands and his feet, and does so for like ten years, and his house is filled with examiners, and then he's having these visions, well, now I'm going to take him real. [00:08:18] Speaker A: Start listening. Exactly. [00:08:19] Speaker B: Yeah, now I'm listening. [00:08:21] Speaker A: I was going to, you know, I actually meant to mention that we're this podcast coming out during kind of the week of stigmata, because as you mentioned, this week we have the 800th anniversary of the stigmata, St. Francis, which is actually a feast day on the old calendar, September 17. And so that was, and it's still held by the Franciscans. Franciscan order still has the 17th as the stigmata. We also have, the death of Tres Newman was actually September 18. So we have that going on this week. The anniversary of Padre Pio receiving the stigmata was September 20, and then his feast day is the 23rd, I believe. And so it's like this is a perfect time and it kind of shows that the stigmata isn't a singular thing. And it's interesting what you said about some people might say, well, we know about more. I feel like the stigmata is something that we would hear about if like, you know, St. Athanasius or St. Augustine or something like that had it because it was such a big deal when Francis got it. Now, when it comes to stigmata, the classical idea everybody has is probably from Francis, may padre Pio, that you have marking, visible markings that are bleeding and painful on the hands, usually the palms, as well as on the side near the heart, you know, where our Lord was pierced, and then also on the feet. That's kind of the classic. But what I found from your book is like, that's not always the case. There's cases of, I think, them being invisible, having some. I think if I remember correctly, the visionary for our lady of Akita had only one. Maybe sometimes it's very long. I mean, Francis had the last two years of his life. Sometimes it's for decades, sometimes it's only on certain days of the week. What are all the kind of different, like what would be classified under stigmata? What are all the different phenomenon that could be classified under that title. [00:10:11] Speaker B: Another one people don't think of, usually they can't see it is in the side from where Christ was speared, and so they will have bleeding from the side, but it's most often in the palms, in the feet, sometimes around the head, from the crown of thorns. And this is interesting. I didn't know this going in, Eric, Therese Newman and Catherine Emmerich, others, they said that the one pain marking that most hurt Jesus was. That was a shoulder wound, and. And this was something. A number of them have had the shoulder wound and have said that's kind of the most vexing, the most painful of all of them. And I find that theologically very interesting, because Christ told us, if you want to follow me, you have to pick up your cross and follow me. So, in a way, he didn't say, you have to put on your crown and follow me. You have to put nails in your hands to follow me. You need to feel like you've been spirit in the side to follow me. Right. You need to pick up your cross and follow me. So. So the one. You know, the. The one injury that is most impactful that was on him and to some of these stigmatists is the shoulder one. So you wouldn't think of that. [00:11:25] Speaker A: Yeah. You wonder how much of that is just. I mean, I'm just. I've never heard that until now. So I just wonder how much of it is the. Maybe the kind of theologically, the weight of the sins kind of putting on the cross and him carrying and, like, it all coming on. You know, when you. When we talk about weight on your shoulders. Wait, you know how much of that is also that kind of the physical manifestation of all our sins being put on Christ? [00:11:46] Speaker B: I know. Isn't that interesting? I mean, really. I mean, theologically, you can go pretty deep with that. Yeah. And I. And, you know, I just. That just occurred to me when I heard it when I was reading their accounts. Yeah. If you want to pick up your. If you want to follow me, pick up your cross and carry it. [00:12:02] Speaker A: Now, there have been people who claim to be stigmatists who were actually condemned by the church or said by the church. No, we see nothing supernatural here. Obviously, just about every stigmatist has been challenged. What are kind of the common challenges to say this is fake or whatever? It's not a true supernatural event. [00:12:22] Speaker B: Well, true fakers usually becomes pretty clear right away because, I mean, first of all, you just can't fake consistent bleeding from your hands. Right. Padre Pio's case for 50 years. And in Pio's case, first they try to say the first person that really attacked him was, was Gemelli from the Vatican, who was just, I'll tell you, awful people. You read the chapter on Padre Pio. Pio said, you want you to know what causes me the most pain of all. My tormentors, my doubters in the church, the people who have attacked me. You know, that's. That's what upset him the most. And Gemelli comes in with this kind of. He was a very arrogant Mandev, and he looked down at Pio in a very condescending way, in part because he came from a family that lacked education, from a part of Italy that this guy had like a, like a comma, almost like a kind of racial bias against. I mean, Gemelli was real, really arrogant. And he tried to talk it, chalk it up to different psychiatric things. Kind of cornball pop psychiatry of the day. He would. One of the accusations appeal from one of the psychiatrists was auto suggestion. Right? Auto suggestion. Are you kidding me? How do you sit there and, like, you know, right, and make yourself bleed from the hands and feet inside for 50 years non stop? And Pio, who had a great sense of humor, said, tell him to imagine that he's a bull, and let's see if horns protrude from his head, right? And they would say he's using acid on his hands in order to do this. Well, acid wouldn't do that. Okay? It just wouldn't do that. And also, you couldn't do it consistently nonstop for 50 years. What's remarkable about so many of them is that, is that the things never got infected. So they would bleed without infection. And in some remarkable cases now, Pio had them consistently nonstop for 50 years until just a few days before he died. And then they disappeared, which itself was miraculous and really telling and quite a sign. But a number of the stigmatists will get the stigmata, like clockwork on Thursday or Friday, right? Like Good Friday. And they'll get them really intense at, like, 03:00 and then by the afternoon or later that day or on Saturday, they just disappear. And they'll be surrounded at their bed by priest, bishop, Vatican official, doctors, psychiatrists, four or five atheists. Everybody's standing all around them, and they're watching. And then the woman is laying there, suddenly starts having pain, starts sweating. They look at her hands. They start to notice little things that happened. Then pretty soon, a few hours later, they're perforated, they're bleeding, blood is coming out of them. I mean, you just, you can't fake that, especially to a group of skeptics. [00:15:24] Speaker A: Yeah, it is interesting. Like, I thought that, I think the fact that Padre Pio's stigmata, which was noticeable, I mean, there's pictures of it, there's photos. People saw it. Like when he celebrated Mass, he had to take off his gloves. The fact that it disappeared before he died is like a, is a confirmation, because if he really had been doing, I don't know how he could, but acid for 50 years on his hands, well, then that's a permanent mark. I mean, that's not going away. And all of a sudden it just goes away. And like you said, some of them would come and go, like, the stigmata wasn't permanent. What are, though? So there's been literally hundreds of people through the ages who have at least claimed to be stigmatists, and the church is at least not condemned and said, because I know there's cases where they said, no, that's not. And so what are kind of, what's the commonalities like, their life leading up to it? I mean, is there, are they, are they typically men or women? Are they typically young people, old people? Are they typically. [00:16:22] Speaker B: Or there's. [00:16:23] Speaker A: Or is there just like a random subset? And what do they go through kind of before? Because, like, the truth is, if you or I, I don't want to speak for you, but at least for I, if all of a sudden a stigmata showed up on me, I'm just not capable of handling that. I mean, I'm nothing spiritually or anything like that. So it's not happening to random suburban dads like me or something like that. So what is kind of the common threads that tie all the stigmatists together? [00:16:47] Speaker B: Yeah. And this is what would get the Vatican's attention, right, is it happens to people who already have a reputation, typically for holiness. And in many cases, these people would have invisible stigmata first, as if they were being prepared for this. They go through a period of trial and preparation, almost as if God the Lord, right, is waiting to see if they're capable, spiritually of being able to handle this. Padre Pio, for example, was often sick, often suffering before he got the stigmata. Overall, in the course of history, about 400 to 500 people, it looks like in total, there was a doctor, a french doctor, who did a study that was published in 1894. At that point, he was able to certify what he believed were about 300 altogether. And he had found in his study, Eric, that every single one of them was Roman Catholic. They were all Catholic. We talk more about that in a second. Since then, there probably have been another 100 or 200 more. There's a group in Belgium that's done studies on this. Michael Fries has done a book. There is, I quote, a couple of other authors who've done books. It looks like probably about 400 to 500 in the course of history. Since the time of St. Francis, about 90% of them have been women. [00:18:16] Speaker A: Wow. [00:18:16] Speaker B: Which I find interesting because Paul might have been the first. Probably was the first. He was male, Francis was male. Padre Pio, the most famous stigmatist, all male. But in most cases, women. They've been women. And from a particular region, about 70% have been italian. And some of the people have observed that have studied this, that the italian people are very emotional people. They seem to be. They have a sort of ability to suffer, and they understand suffering more. More than. Also, too, a lot of probably more saints have come from Italy than any other country. So I think that's part of it, too. Second to Italy would have been France, and then I think Germany was third. Now, interesting today, Hilaire Belloc once said, the faith is Europe, and Europe is the faith. Well, the faith is diminishing in Europe, and now you're seeing more and more stigmatists from outside of Europe. [00:19:13] Speaker A: Interesting. [00:19:14] Speaker B: From Asia, from Latin America, from the United States. More diverse than it was before. So that's something that's changed. But most of it been Catholic. And you and I are both former Protestants, right? So I know some Protestants are probably thinking, wow, you know, these are another. This is another catholic thing, right? Like their shroud of Turin. Like when they get up in the morning and they make their coffee and put cream in it. Well, there's the Virgin Mary. [00:19:43] Speaker A: Right? Exactly. [00:19:45] Speaker B: But these Catholics were there. But. But for me, when I was a Protestant, I was really struck by it. I look at these photos of this guy who died in 1968. Look at the video. I read accounts of it, and it's like this guy's bleeding from his hands. I mean, clearly this is happening. There have been a few Protestants in more recent centuries, but I don't think it's more than about a handful. So I know, like, one Lutheran, I think maybe one Presbyterian one, but it's been just a full. And I think this is consistent with catholic theology versus protestant theology. If you go into a catholic church, in fact, Protestants will say, why do you guys in your church have Jesus on the crucifix? Don't you know that he has risen? He's risen indeed. Right. The cross is empty. Why are you focusing on Jesus on the cross? It's like, okay, first of all, we understand that he's risen, that he's resurrected. We're not saying that we think that he didn't. All right? But for us, it's important to see that suffering Christ. And when we go into our churches, which aren't health and wealth gospel churches, right, we don't go in. When I was a Protestant, right, you and I both in probably, like, the 1990s, remember all the books coming out and christian bookstores. Right. Evangelical bookstores. Why do bad things happen to good people? [00:21:10] Speaker A: Oh, yeah, right. [00:21:10] Speaker B: Why? Why God? Why? I became a Christian, and these people that I know are dying. Why? Why are you doing this to me? Right. But the Catholic knows that suffering is part of the call mortification. The first time that I was in a group book study as a Catholic with the group of old women, and we were talking about suffering, and they said, offer it up. I thought, offer it up. I said, what does that mean? What do you mean, offer it up? They said, well, if you suffer, you know, offer it to Jesus to do something with it. Like, I'm like, really? Like what? Right. Well, maybe to take some suffering away from somebody else or to use it in some positive way. They couldn't really even explain it. Right? Mortification. That word I had never even heard of before, mortification. I'll say it to my students now, they don't understand it. Lent, sacrifice. Right. It's just more common to catholic theology, the Pieta. Right. All through our churches, our homes, we've got the suffering Jesus on the cross. So it's much more likely that Jesus would pick a Catholic who understands suffering and the value of suffering. And you see in the writings of the stigma this Catherine of Siena, Faustina, and other, where Jesus is telling, nothing pleases me more than to see somebody willing to share in my suffering. Right. You just don't see that in Protestantism, especially kind of like health and wealth gospel, evangelicalism. So it makes sense that most of them would be Catholic, not because Catholics are kooky. Right. But because Catholic we are little. Right. That's true. But because catholic theology embraces suffering and the suffering Christ more than Protestantism does, I also think. [00:23:01] Speaker A: I've noticed it's also true that in Catholicism are our greatest. You know, we kind of have a certain. The idea of stigmata is. Is kind of the highest level in some ways. Like, we look at St. Francis Padre prison like that. If you look in the east with the orthodox they are much more. They will have their great saints, they will shine light, and they will be. And it very much is fitting with their theology, which is more focused on theosis and kind of becoming more and more united, godlike, in a way. And this is all legitimate theology, by the way. I'm not saying it's wrong. I'm just saying it's a different emphasis. And if you look at on the catech side, and so they're much more, they're much more focused on the transfiguration. That's kind of their, like we have the crucifix, like you were just saying, that's in a lot of ways our central focus. We're looking at the crucifix in the east, in the orthodoxy and Eastern Catholicism, the focus, often the transfiguration, that's the icon par excellence in a lot of ways. And so you see, what happens then is these great saints in the east, often they become transfigured physically because that's what they're in tune with, that's what they can receive. And whereas on the west, it's because it's the crucifix, it's the stigmata. And I also think, and all these are not saying, I'm not discounting the supernatural aspects. It's like what you're saying. It's more a matter of making the way clear so that the Lord can work opening us up. You see, the stigmata first really comes into effect with St. Francis Assisi. I know St. Paul, but not, but really St. Francis de Assisi in the Middle Ages, at a time when the focus in the west became much more on meditation on the crucified Lord. Now, of course, it's ridiculous, like Padre Pio said, to think that it's like some auto suggestion. It's more a matter of, now the person is more open to this, I think. And so I think. I wonder if I kind of wanted to get your thoughts on that, like with the east and the west and kind of the different focus each side has. [00:25:06] Speaker B: No, that's good. I think. That's right on. And look at St. Francis. I mean, Francis was all about mortification, right? And he was. The things that he was doing to his body, the penitential things, the penance, the suffering that he was already putting himself through. I mean, the guy didn't live very long after he received the stigmata in 1224. And later on, later orders would have to be kind of warned by the Vatican, like, you know, you guys are over. We appreciate the suffering and the sacrifice. But don't kill yourself right through this. Not intentionally kill yourself, but wipe yourself out so much that you harm yourself. But Francis had so spiritually prepared himself to suffer that Christ indeed saw him as worthy. And what else was I going to say about that? But they. Catherine of Siena, same way. I mean, she had already put herself kind of through the theological ringer, spiritually. And Catherine had. You probably wanted to mention this, she had hidden stigmata. And I know that I hate to even mention it, because here again, you're going to have. Skeptics will say hidden stigmata. Well, I don't believe that at all. Right, well, read Catherine of Siena any of the biographies of her. Read her dialogues. Another woman who died at age 33 who had hidden stigmata, Faustina read her diary. Read that stuff. These aren't fakers. I mean, these women, believe me, they have no interest. In fact, they believe that they felt that God gave them the hidden stigmata to keep them humble. Not that they needed any. Any more humility as it was. But in the course of their humility, I mean, Faustina had all these nuns at the convent who were always doubting her, oh, she's not really sick. She just doesn't want to work. Right? And so now, of all things, for her to have the extra pain of stigmata as well, and no one could even see it, it's just an added form of suffering and kind of expiation. And by the way, theologically on that, I notice that Protestants will say, are you saying that Christ has chosen these people to suffer with him in order to help expiate the sins of the world? You know, is Christ's death on the cross alone, his atonement, is that not sufficient yet? No, we're not saying that. But just like Jesus could save anybody if he wants to, he still asks us to evangelize. Right? You know, just like Jesus could. Or God could heal somebody from a disease if he wanted to. We still have doctors and nurses and first responders. There's still a great commission. Right? And so what would be so unusual or contradictory or wrong about Jesus picking certain extraordinary souls, victim souls, who are willing to suffer for him at all times, to help join him in suffering for the sins of the world? Yes, his atonement on the cross is sufficient. We get it, all right? But we are his hands and feet on this earth. And if you've got some nun in a convent in Lithuania or Poland on her knees in front of the crucifix, you know, Jesus, what more can I do? Beyond prayer, what else can I do for the sins of the world? May I please share in your passion in some way, Lord, to help for the sins of this rotten world? In the cases of Catherine of Siena, padre Pio, Francis of Assisi, they're in front of the crucifix when it happens, right? And you know, these rays of light, you know, come out from Jesus's markings on the cross and penetrate the markings of their hands and their feet. Pio, who was alone in San Giovanni Rotundo at our lady, the. Our lady chapel when that happened, he struck by these wounds, and he's laying there crying. He can't believe that the Lord is like, no, lord, no, no. Oh, don't do this to me, Lord. No. Right? I'm not worthy. I'm not worthy. And then he drags himself back to his cell, and the brothers at San Giovanni Rotundo, I mean, by the way, again, you can't hide this either. They see a trail of blood going back to his cell, and they're following it back and they're pounding on the door, you know, Francesco, Francesco. He was named Francis as well. Yeah, let us in, let it know. No, no one's. No. And he tries to hide them, he tries to bandage them, and at one point the superior and someone else comes in and they're like, Francesco, let me see your hands, let me see. And he's like, no, no, let me see. And, you know, takes advantage of. Right, what is this? And he's crying. I don't know, I don't know. You know, I'm not where. I don't want this. I don't want this. But they're chosen. They're especially chosen. [00:30:21] Speaker A: I think I want to go a little deeper on that point, because for the modern mind, it's insanity to think, like, what kind of God do you have that he would apparently punish his best servants when he literally takes his best people? I mean, that's what we claim they are, right? And he decides to punish them. And somehow that's supposed to help other people. Like, I do think this is very foreign. I think even for Catholics, you know, we struggle with. It's a mystery. There is a mystery there. Obviously, we don't fully understand, but I really like, how did they, these people who, I called it at the beginning of the podcast, a gift, and that sounds insane to a lot of ears as well, that this would be a gift, but really they saw it as a gift on some level. And so what is, like, the connection there between this suffering they receive and the salvation of souls for. I mean, and the connection to Christ on the cross. I mean, I do think this is something that it's just so hard to understand. And I think we. I think people would look at God as a capricious, almost like an evil God who would do this to his best people. [00:31:35] Speaker B: They need to read the Bible. And my evangelical friends who say, wWJD, what would Jesus do? Here's the answer. Are you ready? He would suffer. He would suffer for the sins of the world. He's the one person who came into the world, as Fulton Sheen said, to die, right? His purpose was to die. No cross, no crown. He came into the world to be crucified, right? I mean, that was the whole purpose of it. And then he told all of his followers, if you want to follow me, right, don't have a life of being fat and happy and drinking wine and having good food every night and being, you know, the most physically fit person in the world and having a life of pleasure. If you want to follow me, pick up your cross and carry me. If you want to follow him, you're supposed to suffer. So really, kind of the. The highest calling for an imitator of Christ would be somebody who's willing to suffer like Christ and to suffer for the purpose of suffering, for sin, for sinners, for the expiation of sins of the world. So they're not understanding this very deep theological calling and their defense. And all of us, there are very, very, very few people who are willing to do it. So the people that we're talking about, how many people have lived in the course of history? 10 billion? There may be four or 500 have been stigmatous. So this is a rare person who's willing to do this. This isn't happening all over the world, right? In every state in the United States and in every country in the world, to a dozen different people, right? This is a rare gift among those who are capable of doing it. [00:33:22] Speaker A: And also, I think we have to remember that when you look at. When you balance the scales between this life and the next, this is a very tiny, small, short suffering they undergo. And what they're going to receive in the next life is just immense joy and happiness and pleasure and things like that in heaven. So it's not like God is saying, for all eternity, I'm going to punish you. It's more just like, for this temporary thing, take this on for me, and I will use it to save others. And I think you were right to say, like Mitchen, how God always uses other people for his purposes. I mean, like, he could directly enact, and he does sometimes in people's lives, but typically, it's always through us that he acts. [00:34:08] Speaker B: Now, if I may, on that next point about the next life, St. Gemma Galgani, who's one of the ones that I profile in the book, and she was 1878 to 19, oh, 325 years old. And in one of her discussions with the Virgin Mary, she. She said. She said, I'm willing to do more suffering in the next life in heaven. And Mary says to her, some of the effect of an italian, oh, honey, there's no more suffering in heaven, right? I can see my italian grandmother saying that, right, honey, there's no more suffering in heaven. It ends here, right? But what would have been her purpose? She was. She had stigmata. She was tormented and beat, beaten physically by demons. Like Padre Pio was. Now, the devil's no gentleman. He's willing to beat up a girl as well as a guy. And Padre Pio would get beaten up by demons. And in her case, people come into the room and see this 20 year old italian girl being invisibly pulled across the floor by her hair by a demon, right? I mean, just chilling stuff. And, like, St. Faustina, she got used to taking on the demons, right? In one case, Faustina is writing in her diary and the demons are tormenting her, and she just suddenly picks up a crucifix and, like, goes like this and goes back to writing, right? And Gemma Galgani told her spiritual director one time, she said, oh, father, you should have seen him. He talking about the devil or demon. He tripped as he was falling out of the room. He's so silly. It's like laughing at him. And the spiritual director's like, I'm not going to laugh. I don't think that's funny at all. I don't want to mock any of them. I'm really scared by this. But what could have been her purpose for this? I quote in the chapter on her a half a dozen different modern exorcists who have written down in writing in books, that during the course of their exorcisms, one of the most powerful intercessors has been St. Gemma Galgani. And in one case, one of the exorcists with a particularly difficult exorcism says, identify yourself to the demon. And the demon does. And then the demon says something like, oh, she's here. I hate her. She's disgusting. And the exorcist says, who is it? The woman in black oh, I hate her. And the exorcist says, you mean the blessed mother? No, Gemma. St. Gemma. I hate her. But she's apparently become. I call her terror of demons, to borrow from the phrase of St. Joseph. So if you might wonder, what was her purpose in all of this? It might not have been strictly for the. To help the expiation of sins of the world while she's alive between 1878 to 1903, but to spiritually prepare her for the next world to be this figure from heaven, this powerful intercessor who can fight demons and the devil from this other plane of existence. Now, how do I know that? And our protestant friends. Where is that in the Bible? It's not the Bible, dude. The Bible was written 1800 years before Jemba gal Gaddi. But the story doesn't stop there. All right. [00:37:34] Speaker A: I. [00:37:34] Speaker B: Stuff that has happened since. Is that what she's. I don't know, but it's very compelling. Yeah. [00:37:40] Speaker A: One of the things I really appreciated about the book is that I knew, of course, about St. Francis Assisi a lot. I knew about pyramid period written, read a number of books by him, and I knew St. Catherine Siena, familiar with her and that. But I really didn't, like, I actually didn't know sister or St. Faustina was a stigmatist until I read the book and. But St. Gemma. What's your last name? Galgani. Galgani. She was fascinating because I had not. I'd heard of a St. Gemma a little bit, and, like, I knew that. I think there's another one, too. But I heard of her, basically, but not really. And then find out what a powerhouse she is spiritually and how. And I wasn't. Padre Pio also, like, venerated her. Right. I mean, he had devotion to her, and she was pretty well known then. [00:38:27] Speaker B: But, like, she was canonized right away. Yeah, she. She was canonized within a couple decades after her death, in fact, sooner than. Than Padre Pio was in the case of a lot of people like this in modern Italy, right. We're talking 20th century. I mean, people would. Would learn about this in the villages very quickly, and soon there were lines outside the door. Sister Elena Aiello is another one from the early 1960s in Calabria. Right. People started lining up outside the door. Oh, and here's one. She just died. Sister Agnes, the. Our lady of Akita Seer, who had the incredible visions in 1973, including the 1 October 13, 1973. So the anniversary of the miracle of the sun. And Fatima, in fact, her bishop, Ido, who said that these visions are indeed he approved them of supernatural origin. Origin. He has said that the message of Akita is the message of Fatima. It's like an extension of the, of the message of Fatima. She's the one who predicted a day of bishops fighting bishops, clergy fighting clergy, cardinals fighting cardinals, talked about a chastisement, a ball of fire from the sky. I mean, really chilling predictions from her that may still yet be coming true in our time. I didn't know, Eric until I read the letter from, the bit from Bishop Edo that she had the stigmata. And then I did a little bit of research on it and thought, oh, wow. Yeah. No one ever mentions that she had stigmata. Blessed Anna Maria Taigi, who is one of the principal individuals known for the three days of darkness concept, she gets stigmata. It's often not talked about. I think only one of her biographers, her main authoritative biographer, he mentions it, and I quote him a paragraph or two where he mentions it. But what I found out in a lot of these cases that these blessed and saints who have these visions of days of darkness and chastisement, ball of fire from the sky and everything, Maria Marie Julie Jahani is another, although she's not a blessed or a saint. But when I found out that they had stigmata too, that's what really struck me, because if they had those markings as well, and they were not rejected and affirmed by church officials or by their spiritual advisors, and they had these prophecies and these visions, it gives, it's an added weight, as far as I'm concerned, to whatever it is that they were trying to tell us. It's like an imprimatur, right? Like marking of approval. [00:40:55] Speaker A: Yeah, it's kind of like when they find a body incorrupt after years after they died, you know, it's like a little stamp of approval, so to speak. Heaven. Now, you mentioned the visions, and you talk about that a number of times in the book, that it was not uncommon for stigmatists, particularly those of 20th century and whatnot, that had. They have certain visions. They seem to. I mean, the themes are a little frightening, I mean, to be honest. I mean, and so talk a little bit about that. Like what? Like some of the stigmatists who had these visions and kind of what were. I mean, they seem to have a common thread, and the thread wasn't exactly, you know, everything is awesome. So. So what were some of those visions? [00:41:36] Speaker B: That's the main reason I wrote the book, is because I noticed this commonality of so many of them, especially in the 20th century, talking about the end times, which seem like our times. And St. Faustina Kowalska, born 1905, died in 19, 38, 33 years old. And we have her diary. And the first time I read her diary, I thought, look at all these statements about the end times. Right. She's the first canonized saint of the new millennium by Pope John Paul II. That's in itself is significant. And she says in her diary, in her own writing, that Jesus told her, you will prepare the world for my second coming. You were the one who will prepare the world for my second coming. With her message of divine mercy, her talk of the end times, the final days, a marking in the sky, Jesus appearing in the sky. Great chastisement. And when I. She was the one who said that blessed Elena Aiello said it. Akita said it. Anna Maria Taiji, the days of darkness, people who prophesied that. In fact, Elena Aiello, I was really struck by her because I had never heard of her. [00:42:49] Speaker A: I had not either. [00:42:50] Speaker B: Yeah. And I tracked down her writings in Italian, any books that I could get. Any writings that I could possibly get. She predicted a days of darkness, as she put it, of 70 hours. She actually gave it, like, some would say, three days of darkness. Faustina, I believe, says days of darkness. I don't think she uses the word three days, but days of darkness. But little sister Elena Aiello actually used the phrase 70 hours, and that really hit me because I thought, well, that's pretty specific. Three days would be 72. I mean, I'm not going to give or take a couple of hours being off there. Right. If you're living through it, 70 hours is going to feel like three days. All right. So they. But I found consistency in their predictions about chastisement end times. That made me feel like if these recent stigmatists, if these prophecies that they said are legit, that we should pay attention to. Let's. Let's see what they had to say. [00:43:57] Speaker A: We need to be ready, it sounds. [00:43:58] Speaker B: Yeah, you need to be ready. [00:43:59] Speaker A: Yeah. Now, are there any stigmatists alive today where they claim to be stigmatists? And there seems to be at least some evidence that. That this might be legitimate, this. That this isn't fake. [00:44:12] Speaker B: Yeah. There are a few today, and they're tracked by. By some catholic websites and some of these websites, they could be very sloppy. And this is one of the things that really aggravated me because I wanted to know, can I take this person's words or not? And I would read some of the purported visions of some of these people, and they could often be very apocalyptic. They could seem like hyperbole in many cases, very dramatic in other cases. They would sometimes make theological statements, Eric, where I honestly, I would look at them and say, wow, that seems spot on, right? The way this person who's claiming to have stigmata today, what she just said about the church in our times, I don't know. It seems like a pretty sophisticated thing for some, you know, mother of five or six in this country, in Latin America to be just making up. But it frustrates me because I'm like, you know, is this real or not? Then again, in Padre Pio's time, people went through this, right? People didn't know for sure whether or not he was legit. He died in 1968. They didn't canonize him for decades after. Right. All of these stigmatists in their time are all doubted. There's a woman in Italy right now. Her name is Gisela Cartia. I talk about her in the book. I've watched video online where it looks like she has maybe some type of oil or blood that's coming out of her palms. I'm not there. I don't know. There's not a team of vatican people there to confirm it. There's a doctor there, an italian doctor and another clergy who's there, and they're watching it, and they claim that it's true. It doesn't look like it's being fake. But, you know, I'm just watching, saying, you know, lord, could somebody go there with, can't, can somebody go investigate this? Is this true? Is it true? [00:46:07] Speaker A: Why isn't the Vatican investigating? Is the bishop just kind of ignored it or what? [00:46:11] Speaker B: In her case, they finally, she became a sensation on italian television. And by the way, it really struck me about her. She was being tracked on the website countdown to the kingdom. Right. And what struck me about her is she's from Trevignano Romano, which I've been to in Italy. The first time that I was in Italy with my family, in 2014, my wife tried to find a house that we could stay in because I was there for about three weeks doing research for a pope and a president, the book that became a pope and a president. And she did like, what is it like home away from home. I forget what they're called. That website is. And so she found this village called Trevignano Romano. Seemed like a nice distance, not too far away from Rome, right on Lake Bracciano. And so that's where we stayed. And we love this place and really enjoyed it there. And so when I heard that this woman was from Trevignano Romano, I thought, wow, well, that's interesting because that's why I was just there a few years ago. So I started following her case, started reading it in Italian. I watched italian news shows that had her on, and there would be the skeptics attacking her. She would be responding. She seemed legit. She seems sincere. Other people claim she's a faker. Some claim she changed her name. I don't know. But it got to the point where the local bishop and Vatican did start investigating her and they rejected her to some degree, which I think prompted the countdown to the kingdom guys to remove her from the website. But what's interesting about what the Vatican said about her, Eric, they didn't rule on her stigmata. And I thought, can't you guys make a statement on that? I mean, that would seem the easiest thing of all to kind of prove or disprove. I just want to know what their, how they ruled on the stigmata. Right. They were arguing with certain things that she said or claimed and this and that. I just want to know whether or not they send a team of vatican people there and tell me if she's bleeding from her hands or not. Right. And it's also a sign of our times and our secular age that you go to the website of CNN.com or Fox News. All they care about is Biden and Kamala and Trump and who's getting who if they're, if there's some woman in Italy or Latin America who claims to be bleeding from her hands right now, why aren't you over there with your tv cameras? Even as skeptics go check it out. Go do a story on this. It's almost like a sign of how much satan is in control of our secular age, that no one in the west even cares about this enough to investigate it, to try to shoot it down. [00:48:58] Speaker A: I mean, I think it's crazy that a man had the stigma for 50 years in full public view of everybody and we're not still talking. People were just like, huh, whatever. I mean, right? That could still be a story today. [00:49:09] Speaker B: I know. I agree. I mean, they should have, they should have demanded to sit in a room with him in 1960 for as long as they possibly could or as long as he would allow. [00:49:19] Speaker A: Right. [00:49:19] Speaker B: And just show the blood coming from his hands. Now, I know people who've been involved in documentaries and drew Mariani of relevant radio, who I do a show a lot, and he endorsed this book. And Drew was involved in the case in a case about astigmatist and due to full diet, he said he watched her bleed from her hands. In fact, Drew even was involved in the Our lady of Akita documentary and interviewed her, of all things at that point. Our lady of Akita, Sister Agnes, she was no longer bleeding from her hands as far as we know. I think that was a temporary thing that she had during that time, she was cured of deafness and she just died. And from what I hear, they donated her body to science. [00:50:05] Speaker A: Oh, I didn't hear that. [00:50:06] Speaker B: Yeah. And I mean, the Vatican should be over there getting a hold of the body and putting it behind glass. [00:50:13] Speaker A: Oh, yeah, absolutely. [00:50:14] Speaker B: Incorruptibility or whatever else. I mean, this is a big deal in her case. [00:50:20] Speaker A: I hope that's not the case. That, that'd be awful. So who knows? Okay, so I just want to recommend people, the stigmatists, their gifts or revelations or warnings. Great book. And it really opened up the, the mystery of the stigmata to me a lot because, like I said, I knew Francis. Padre Pio Catherine cn a little bit. But those, and those are probably the big three as far as, like, the biggest saints as far as known. But things like. I didn't know sister St. Faustina. I didn't, I didn't know about people like St. Gemma. And, and I will say my favorite, I think, and I end up buying a book about her was Therese Newman. [00:50:56] Speaker B: Oh, yeah. [00:50:57] Speaker A: You didn't have a whole chapter on her because, you know, I understand she's serving a guy. She has not been, you know, beatified, all that stuff. And so there, there needs to be some reason, there needs to be some reserve in the sense of we, we allow the church to make final decisions on this, not us. At the same time, I ended up buying the book. I think you had referenced the book in your book. And then I end up Vogel, I think his last name is. [00:51:16] Speaker B: Right. [00:51:17] Speaker A: And, oh, my gosh, that her story is just insane, isn't it? As far as. Just like, how outlandish. I'm not saying this in a bad way. I just mean, like, out of the ordinary, I guess. Extraordinary. She didn't eat or drink for like the last 35 years of her life. [00:51:34] Speaker B: Right. She had, except for one thing. Right. [00:51:37] Speaker A: And that's the most important part, the blessing, obviously. I mean, that's just. I actually posted on x this week about this. And, you know, some people are like, oh, I fasted for 40 days and I lost 40 some pounds. There's no way it's possible. Of course it's not possible. We're not saying it's naturally possible. You can't live for 35 years on only the lesson, sacrament. I mean, that is impossible. [00:51:58] Speaker B: I mean, and they would often, including Catherine of Siena, Ann Kathryn Emmerich, if they were given real food, they would, they would vomit it up. [00:52:07] Speaker A: Right. [00:52:08] Speaker B: Couldn't hold it down. The only thing that they could hold down was the Eucharist. Now, you, they have medical doctors next to these women, and they're gaining, they gain weight to theres. Newman gained weight. And you, you can't do that. And you can't fake that, all right? I mean, you can make that for. [00:52:27] Speaker A: A week or two, but you cannot fake that for 30 some years. Somebody's going to see you picking up a burger someday. I mean, it just going to. That's the truth is, because there's always skeptics of these people, it makes it very difficult to do this for any extended period of time. There are people who wanted to catch Padre Pio. There are people wanted to catch Therese Newman. I mean, the Nazis were after her. You don't think they would have had, like, a way to, like, you know, discredit her if they could? [00:52:53] Speaker B: Exactly. Right. [00:52:53] Speaker A: And so, yeah, so I just, I want to recommend the book very highly. It introduces you to a lot of people who are amazing. And I were gifted by God in a special way, and I do think it for, at least for me, it also did remind me of the importance of ourselves taking on, you know, accepting suffering and penance and mortification in our life. I mean, we're not going to have the unique kind of craziness of the stigmata, but we're all called to it a level of mortification, penance, based on our state of life and things of that nature. So I really do appreciate you writing the book, Paul. [00:53:26] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. Thanks, Eric. It was good to write on something like this rather than, you know, the devil and Karl Marx. Finally, something spiritually edifying and uplifting about people. I mean, Marx was all about himself and his greed and his obsession with capital and money and your property. These are people who truly gave it all up, gave their bodies totally over, like they're Jesus. [00:53:50] Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. Amen. Okay, Paul, I will put a link to where you can buy the book at Tan from Tan Publishers. I'll put a link to that anywhere else people can find. Obviously, American Spectator probably find a lot of your writing as well, right? [00:54:02] Speaker B: Yeah. Follow me. So I'm the editor, the American Spectatorspectator.org, and we do a weekend Spectator podcast there myself and Grace Riley and read me a crisis magazine, which I like to write to more often. I wish I should. I should write for you more often. [00:54:16] Speaker A: Yeah, you should. [00:54:19] Speaker B: And I write for National Catholic Register every now and then as well. [00:54:22] Speaker A: Great. Awesome. Well, thanks, Paul. I appreciate it. [00:54:24] Speaker B: Yeah, thanks for the great work you do at crisis, Eric. [00:54:27] Speaker A: Thanks a lot. Okay, until next time, everybody. God love.