Should There Be Catholic Youth Ministries? (Guest: Trent Horn)

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign. [00:00:13] Speaker B: I just realized looking at that initial image, you have kind of the frown eye, the smiley face makes me look like I'm the supportive of youth ministries. And you're going to be against it, but we're going to, like, you know. [00:00:25] Speaker A: Who needs young people? [00:00:26] Speaker B: Exactly. You're the serious one. Like, I want these young people around. [00:00:30] Speaker A: I know. [00:00:30] Speaker B: I'm the one who's going to be the curmudgeon, not you. [00:00:33] Speaker A: No. Somebody said on my. I did an update about Laura and, like, her cancer update and things like that, and they said, I thought it was bad news because it had your serious face in the thumbnail. I'm like, that's just the Trent face. Don't. Don't read too much into it. [00:00:47] Speaker B: Yeah, I don't do the whole change my facial expression for the. For the thumbnail thing. I just. I can't do that. But yeah. [00:00:54] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:00:54] Speaker B: Anyway. So how is Laura doing, by the way? [00:00:56] Speaker A: She's doing a lot better. Like, I. I had an episode, you know, recently that was good news. And I published that the day we were going to go see the oncologist, but the genetic test came back that she has a brain glioma, kind of brain cancer that only occurs in 2 to 8% of cases, and it's the most treatable kind. And then yesterday, from this recording, we went to the oncologist and we thought, oh, good, she has the kind that responds best to these new inhibitor drugs that they have. And she said, we actually looked at your tumor because the MRI will tell you how big the mass is, but you can't know how dense it is, how full of cancer cells it is until you do a pathology on it. It can only. You can only learn so much until after it's taken out. And they said, we did the pathology, and we were shocked at how few cancer cells were in the mass, so. And because it was a clean resection, 100% removed, we're not recommending any drugs. No chemo, no inhibitors. Let's. We'll just keep an eye on it. [00:01:57] Speaker B: That's awesome. Now remind us who. Who is the person we're asking for intercession? I have it written down. [00:02:03] Speaker A: Venerable Aloysius Schwartz. Venerable Al Schwartz. [00:02:07] Speaker B: Okay, great. And I actually had Kevin Wells on the program to talk about his biography of Venerable Al, which is Schwartz. So, yeah, he's a great man. And that's. That's a great person. [00:02:16] Speaker A: And I mean, honestly, it's like, I know this. This won't, like, clear the. I'm a very skeptical, critical person. This wouldn't clear the official bar of like miracle. But I think a lot of times in our lives we are allowed personally to have our own unofficial, slightly lower bar of miracle. That to me that this was really providence, his intercession, everyone's prayers of just continually, the, the very, very minority good cases and outcomes popping up here. So I really think it's a lot of divine providence at work. [00:02:49] Speaker B: That's awesome. Yeah. And the truth is the church should have a super high bar for actual official miracles for a saint. I get that because will help defeat the skeptics on it. But we all can be like, yeah, it was definitely his intercession that helped and all that stuff. So that's great. Okay, so our, our discussion today is about Catholic Youth Ministries. [00:03:10] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:03:10] Speaker B: And it's because of a tweet I put, let me put up here on the, on the. Why it's too small. I made it too. Anyway, I'll read it. I said, I, I tweet out and I do this sometimes. I'll put something on X that you know, kind of just gets things started. So I believe it would be better if almost every single teen oriented apostolate ministry in the church were shut down. No youth groups, no youth conferences, and for God's sake, no youth masses. Just integrate teens into parish life to prepare them for adulthood. And you know, and I do mean, I never lie on, I never say something I don't mean. But I will say, obviously X isn't the place for nuance. But at the same time, you, you reach out to me and pushed back a little bit and I thought that was good. And we thought, hey, let's go ahead and get on here. [00:03:53] Speaker A: And I'd rather, and I'd rather just talk to you because I, I hate discussions on X. I absolutely, I hate them. A lot of times I'll see people post something that's inflammatory or just something like that, or I'll just private message them instead of commenting under it because I don't want to deal with all of that. [00:04:12] Speaker B: But it's not good for discussion. Yeah. And I just want to be clear. Our discussion here, it's not a debate. And the reason for that is because I don't want to get trounced. I'm not going to debate Trent Horn on anything, am I? I actually told my son who's, who's a just graduated from Franciscan. I told him I was gonna be talking to you about this. And I said something about debate not being debate. He, he goes, dad, you need to title It Trent Horn destroys Eric Salmons with facts and logic. [00:04:38] Speaker A: Laser eyes. Laser eyes. [00:04:40] Speaker B: Right. [00:04:41] Speaker A: Right into you. [00:04:42] Speaker B: I might actually make that the YouTube title because so, yeah, so I'm not dumb enough to debate you, so I call it a discussion. That way I can't lose. [00:04:49] Speaker A: So that's true. And also for, for me, it's like I don't have, I mean, I youth groups especially for personal, probably sentimental reasons, but just personal reasons. But I'm not like, it's not a hard and fast position. It's a question, it's a, it's a prudential judgment. Like how do you best reach out to a certain group of people? And also honestly. And that's why I think it'd be interesting to talk to talk to you about how the church, like applies prudential judgments. It's, it's going to change as social contexts change. [00:05:23] Speaker B: Right. [00:05:24] Speaker A: Because like a solution in 2025 is going to be different than 1925 or even 2005. [00:05:32] Speaker B: Right. [00:05:32] Speaker A: So it's, it will, it will require a lot of that. But yeah, I was just interested and I guess your, your thoughts on that, what motivated it? And then what I was more interested in is like, yeah, what? Whenever someone says I don't like X, my follow up is usually what's the why you prefer instead? So if you want to go more, that's totally fine. [00:05:54] Speaker B: Yeah. And basically my view of course is more nuanced than why I say an X. But here's my thing. So I worked with volunteers for a parish in evangelization for a number of years. But then I was the director of evangelist for a diocese. So I worked in a diocese in level for five years. And one of the things you could say it red pilled me maybe, I don't know. But really what happened was, is I saw how strong the status quo is in the Catholic Church today in the sense that we just do things because that's how we've done them. And typically the things we've done have only date back usually to the 60s or 70s. Most of them. [00:06:32] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:06:32] Speaker B: But like the idea is, okay, this is what we do. And so I started to get, maybe just because I'm getting older and curmudgeon, I start saying, well, why do we do them like that? Why, why, why do we just unquestionably say, here's how we run a parish, we have a youth group, we have a youth minister, we have, you know, this is how we do Bible studies, this is how we do the, the liturgy, all that stuff. Why don't we just say, hold on a second, maybe that's not what we want to do? And so when I, and I particularly say that when I look at the numbers, you and I are on total agreement. I know. As far as understanding and exploring the numbers of Catholics, you know, leaving the church, things like that. And I. You probably saw the. I meant to send to you. You probably saw it, though. The one by Stephen Bullivant and Michael Roda at in the Journal for Church Life of University of Notre Dame called religious transmission a solution to the church's biggest problem. And this was. Just came out a week ago. And essentially what they showed was nine out of 10 people who grew up Catholic don't attend Mass regularly on a weekly basis. So really, nine out of ten are falling away. Because if you don't attend Mass weekly unless you have some great. [00:07:39] Speaker A: And what's, what's interesting, Eric, is in this discussion because a lot of people, you know, we're. We're especially back around the Easter vigil, a lot of times on social media next, like, Catholics get into this crowing mentality, like, everything's great and we're gonna. The whole country is going to be Catholic. And I'm always like, we really got to be sober in our judgments. And you don't want to overplay your hand. And even if it is, and I do believe it's correct that we're seeing an uptick in conversions. I don't. I do not doubt that at all. Right. What I was talking, like, when I was doing my episodes and I was saying about, you know, oh, actually Protestants are winning in other areas of attracting people, and the Catholic Church is experiencing a real problem. People would put under it on X, don't tell Trent Horn, like, record surge of adult baptisms. And I pointed out, yes, that's true. But traditionally, 90% of the people who become Catholic is through infant baptism. That is, the church grows primarily through the domestic church. That. That's how it's always been, and that's where we're seeing the crisis. And so it's like, yeah, this is good that more people are coming into the church as adults, but we got a real crisis of losing people who were raised Catholic. [00:08:53] Speaker B: Right. Absolutely. And I think that's what I don't think everybody's understanding is both things can be true. It can be true that tons of cradle Catholics are leaving the church. And it can also be true that we're seeing an increase in conversions. In fact, I think both those things are true. [00:09:07] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:09:07] Speaker B: I think there's a lot of reasons for that. But the point for our discussions today is simply, it's just a fact. I mean, it's been proven time and time again and demonstrated time and time again. The majority, probably the vast majority of people who grow up Catholic are not practicing the faith as the church wants them to when they become adults. And that's just what happens. And therefore, to me, I'm saying, okay, well, we literally need to question everything now. Sometimes my answers end up being things like, okay, let's go back to way we were doing before Vatican ii, stuff like that. But I'm not saying that's true either. I'm just simply saying. I'm not even saying I have the definite right answer. Like, okay, let's return to 1950s Catholicism. What I am saying, though, is we're obviously not doing something right now. I'm not blaming at all. It's not like, okay, because we have youth groups now, people are leaving. That's obviously not true either. There's so many factors why people leave, totally. But I think it's. I think you can be confident to say that the way we do youth ministry is not keeping a ton of people in the church. I mean, that. That's true. Would more people leave if we didn't have youth ministry? Perhaps it'd be hard to imagine more people leaving at this point. [00:10:21] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:10:21] Speaker B: Or, you know, if we. If we scrapped all youth ministry had nothing to do with it, would more people stay? Those are questions you can't answer for sure. But what I am saying, though, is that I think the way youth ministry is done and the very fact that we have youth ministry itself, I think we should at the very least question it and say, is this something that is really effective and are there better ways to do it? And I personally think there are. I've seen better ways. But that's really kind of what I'm saying and like it. I'm not saying there aren't people who haven't been helped by the youth ministry. I know that is true. I know people like that. I'm not saying that that, like, you know, obviously there's youth education. I'm not saying you don't have Catholic schools or, you know, things like that. [00:11:12] Speaker A: Those have their own problems. [00:11:13] Speaker B: Yes, and that's a. But that. And that's a different. That's a whole different set of problems. You're right. But, like, I'm mostly focused on how almost every parish in America, they have a youth outreach where they have a youth group. They have. They go to youth. Maybe a Franciscan University, Steubenville conference once a year, things like that. I'm questioning, do we really even need to have them? So that's kind of my overview of my overall position. [00:11:37] Speaker A: Yeah, well, I. I guess one of the questions I had for you when you're looking at this, and I think also when we talk about youth ministry, we have to understand, like, it's not monolithic. Like, there's so many different programs and ways that they are approached. I feel really blessed that my encounter with the Catholic Church was through an unusually orthodox, solid and hip youth ministry program. It was a life team program, but it was. It was run by just really solid college students, people out of college. The youth minister, I'm pretty sure he had his master's in theology from Franciscan, Was a Franciscan grad. His name was Eric Westby. And he created, like, he created his own curriculum so that you would go through. If you attended a youth group night every Sunday for four years in high school, you would have gone through the entire catechism. Like, the. The material, it would cover the whole catechism in four years. And so it was. It was cool. And I interacted with this program. I was going to a public high school, I was not Christian, and they had this kind of lunchroom outreach that anybody could come by. And it was. It was an evangelistic program. And that's what encounter me and then started, you know, starting my journey. But there's a lot. But I. Even then I had been to other youth groups, other programs where it's not run as well, and then there's a lot of different ways of doing it. So it's not monolithic. I guess my thought for you is why it seems like if we wouldn't have ministry, like, for youth directed at them. Like, what. What are your thoughts about. Like, we have, like, men's groups. Like, we have a group just for men to meet and gather and strengthen them, or we have a women's group or, you know, something for older groups, a seniors group. It seems like we have groups for other demographics. Why wouldn't we have that for. For youth? I guess. [00:13:30] Speaker B: I think. I guess. And I'm not even 100% sure if I'm being consistent here, but I have no problem with groups divided by sex. I do start to have a problem when they're divided by age. And so, like, a men's group, men are different from women. And yes, I know old people are different than young people, but the point is, is, like, fundamentally, though I do. I can appreciate the, the benefits of a men's group. I've been part of men's groups in the past and my wife has been part of women's groups. And so I can see the benefits. I do think that shouldn't be a major emphasis of a parish, but I could see like, okay, we're going to have a men's group that, that meets, you know, we have one at our parish. They meet at like 6:30 on Saturday mornings once a month. [00:14:14] Speaker A: We, we have that too. And I, I can't do it. I cannot, I can't do it. And what's interesting, this makes me think also because I, I recently spoke in another parish and it had a young men's group. So it had a group because I do think the age thing can, can make sense that it was a men's group but for men from ages like 20 to 35. And really it's like, like think about the things people say. We're trying to revitalize church. You get these young, solid Catholic women and they're like, where are the good Catholic men? You know, I, I, I can, I very rarely can count off top my head of a Catholic man who has a hard time finding a girl if he's at least like, knows how to have a conversation and has a job that can support a family. And he doesn't look like Quasimodo. Like he, it's, it's not that hard. But for women it's like looking out. For Catholic men, it's like a tumbleweed rolls by. Right, right. And so, so they have the meeting for those men, it's like a Thursday night at 7 because it's like you just can't get them. I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like you do it Saturday at 6:30 in the morning because it's hard. Like think about like men for men's group. It's like you and I, it's like we got work, we got families, we're managing the households. When is the time to take us out of the household that is least detrimental to wife and children? [00:15:31] Speaker B: And that's exactly why it's picked because you know, so many people on Saturdays throughout the day, they have like sports for their kids or whatever the case may be. They have family, they have work, all that stuff. So 6:30 on a, on a Saturday morning is one of the few times that men are available. So that's exactly why they do it. [00:15:45] Speaker A: Well, at least men who are established, older, married. [00:15:47] Speaker B: Yeah, right, right, that's married. That's Right. Married men, people, you know, later in their career and things like that in family life. So. Yeah, absolutely. And I think. [00:15:55] Speaker A: But I agree with you though, Eric, that, like, I don't like the idea of treating adolescents and youth like it's some kind of weird fetishistic idol and it's like we're like cordoning them off from the rest of the parish. That can get creepy and weird and lead to. [00:16:11] Speaker B: And I think, honestly that's probably where my biggest concern is because all the youth groups I've seen just about. They just. And I'm sure there's some superstar groups out there. But like, in general, the way it's kind of thought is, okay, we treat these like alien beings, these kids. And like, okay, you know, once you turn 13 or something, you. You now think differently than humans until you're 18 or 20 or whatever the case may be. And so everything. [00:16:39] Speaker A: And sometimes, sometimes with their behavior, it feels that way. [00:16:43] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, I've had, you know, I got four adult children. I got two that are teenagers right now. So I've had six that have been teenagers. I got one more coming. So. Yes, I know. Especially the. Okay, I shouldn't say. I was gonna say especially the girls. That's only because I'm a guy and I just do not understand girls. I don't make girls I don't understand. [00:17:01] Speaker A: Here's. Here's the thing. I have an analogy for raising children. I have not hit the teen years yet, so I don't. I'm sure it will hold based on observation with raising boys and raising girls. So I compare it to a mortgage. So I just have three boys and I feel like raising boys. It's like a 15 year mortgage. It's really hard at first and you hit the ground running and it's just hard. And then it's done. And you're like, oh, good girls. It's like an adjustable rate mortgage. When you start, it's actually pretty easy and enjoyable. It's not like these little like, you know, balls of energy that are crazy. It's like they just sit in color and this is so nice. But then when they turn 13, the higher interest rate kicks in and you're like, what happened? That's my analogy. [00:17:45] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah, that's not a bad one. Having a lot of girls. Exactly. And then they do. I mean, honestly, it's funny because I joke that. I mean, I tell people that I actually think the teen years are some of the best for parenting because they really are starting to become a young adults. They're really starting to think about things that are important in life and having, you know, real, a real relationship with Christ that's, that's their own, that's separate from yours. All those things are beautiful and I love seeing them. And I think my issue is, is that with youth ministry is that it really does do too much to separate the kid, their practice of the faith from the family. I think if you look at. Yeah, and I think if you look at like this, this survey, the report done by. Do you know Stephen Bullivant, by the way? [00:18:33] Speaker A: Oh, yeah. He, he, he recommended answering atheism. I asked him to because he did a really great kind of historical book on atheism. And he has, he has a, he has a very fair book on the effects of the Second Vatican Council on Gallic demographics. [00:18:49] Speaker B: Yeah, I, I think he's, honestly, he's my favorite. He's, I think, the best as far as the surveys and because like the one on Vatican II I thought was great because he doesn't, like, he doesn't go either extreme as saying it's all Vatican II's fault. Neither does he say we can't act like it's unrelated either. You know, he's like, okay, we have to at least grapple with the fact that there's some relationship between a little bit. [00:19:11] Speaker A: It's a little bit of gas on the fire, but it didn't start the fire. [00:19:14] Speaker B: Right. That's. And that's his. I think that's analogy used. Exactly. So. And he proves it too. That's the other thing. He didn't just say that he shows why it was happening before Vatican ii, but when they, they have a section on predictors of successful religious transmission. Because really, let's, let's be frank. That's the purpose of youth ministry, is to transmit the faith, is to keep the kids Catholic. And when they go through, they have a number of things, but the first two, five, all are the most important. Says both parents have the same religious identity. The parents, marriage is intact. The parents live their religion. Their religious is important to them. The parents talk with their children about religion. Parents provide both. Warmth instruction. Children form secure attachments to their parents. Those are the top five things they say that helps religious transmission. Now, they do have some other ones, and one or two of them could relate to youth ministry. So I don't want to be unfair about that. Like, they have many faith supportive peer relationships that obviously can come about through, through youth ministry. But the most important things is simply family life. Do they have a solid Catholic family life. And I feel like the emphasis. And remember when a parish spends resources and time on something, that means they're not doing it for something else because they have. There's only so much money to have so much ability to do things. So if they spend their energy on youth ministry, that does take away on some level from other things they do. They could. [00:20:37] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:20:38] Speaker B: And to me, I feel like the real crux should be how do we make greater intact families that are living out the Catholic faith. And I don't think youth ministry actually supports that very much. It can be a help for already good families. But like, I think it does though take away from the ability for a parish to say, okay, our activities, our emphasis is going to be on family life and making family life something that is solid. That then. And we know the parents are the ones who are going to transmit the faith to their children in, you know, 90% of the cases there. I know there's atheist parents who have end up having Catholic kids and all that stuff. But in general, like you mentioned, the faith is transmitted through the family. And so I feel like you are taking away. And so like just at our parish, which is a kind of a hybrid, we do both the Novus Ordo and we do the traditional Mass in our parish. So it's not like just a fraternity parish or something like that. It's not only traditional Latin Mass. [00:21:39] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:21:40] Speaker B: But like there's no. It's like we have catechism for the kids and all that stuff. So it's not like we don't do religious education. But the vast majority of, we don't have an official youth group or anything like that. But we have tons of activities and special Masses and all of them are for the whole parish. So we have the picnic, we have, you know, like the feces assumption. We had a big High Mass sung mess on the, that evening and then we had a big get together afterwards, like where we had food and everything. It was a Friday where we could eat meat. So, you know, we had, you know, we had chicken and stuff like that. [00:22:15] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:22:15] Speaker B: But what happens is, is like everybody comes to it. So sure enough, as you know, can imagine that the adults are talking to each other, the kids are hanging out with each other, the young kids are running around with each other. But it's all in this environment of we're all together. The kids end up congregating, the teenagers congregate together. I mean, they're spending their whole time, you know, talking to them. Have to drag my kids out after each you know, when I'm finally too tired and I need to go home and sleep, they're like, you know, want to keep talking and stuff. So they're getting that peer relationship of other good Catholics. But it's more in the context of they just went to Mass with everybody, with all the adults. It wasn't a Mass geared towards them, it was just simply a High Mass, sung Mass and beautiful and all that. [00:22:57] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:22:57] Speaker B: And so no music that's, that's geared towards them or anything like that. It's just like, you know, Gregorian chant, things like that. So I feel like that's a very healthy environment where you, the faith can be better transmitted than just saying, okay, let's separate them. So that's kind of where I'm coming from. [00:23:15] Speaker A: No, I, I, I like that a lot because I think when I read your post I'm like, well, I agree we should build up family life, but teenagers have a natural desire to want to practice and sort out pre adult life of interacting with each other. Like if you're kid, like if you're always helicoptering your kid and he's never away from you, they're going to be very stunted when they try to go out in the adult world. But what you're describing, like when I used to, I used to attend a Byzantine parish and I think this can happen. This is easier in smaller parishes than like mega parishes. Like the smaller parishes I've been to, which are usually Byzantine. There would be like a family gathering afterwards and then the adults talk to each other. The kids start to sort. In the natural ages, elementary plays, elementary, middle schoolers have their awkward conversations. High schoolers are talking to each other and you, and so you saw that family context, but you also have the, the peer to peer dynamics. But I haven't been there in a while and disclaimer for everybody. I came into the church, the Novus Ordo. I like the Novus Ordo. I've been attending it now exclusively for maybe like three years because I mean I almost regret telling people once that I like the Byzantine liturgy. Like, well you're, you're a hypocrite. You, you, you, I'm like this salesman who brings people in, but I flee the Nova story. That's not the case. I, I just like Byzantine liturgy. There's a TLM here and I don't attend it because I like the Novus Ordo that, that I attend. So that's my disclaimer for my haters out there. [00:24:45] Speaker B: You're a biz larper. Right. [00:24:47] Speaker A: That's, gosh, it's like. No, I just, I like it. But then our, our life sort of changed and now I've been in a Nova Sordo for gosh, like two or three years. I mean, I spent 95% of my Catholic life at the, at the Novus Ordo. But regardless, I, I, that's what I would like to see, like families being built up while still having, I do think it's important to have those times for young people to have memories bonded with each other that, that are wholesome, but also have that youth and teen energy that you don't have when you're all around with your parents. So like for me that was why, I mean it was really changed my life coming into a youth program. Then I volunteered for that program after I was, after I was in college because I wanted to give back. They'd given so much to me and some of my, my fondest memories, honestly, either being a teen or a college, especially being the teen, a teenager trying to have my identity, was seeing other Catholics my age, really excited about their faith, but sharing adventures with them. We lived in, we were in Phoenix, Arizona. So I remember every summer we would rent a bus. School bus, no, it was a charter bus actually. Wasn't that horrible, but still crammed on a charter bus. You would leave like Friday at midnight, drive all night, do the beach with everybody, then get a hotel, then go to, to Magic Mountain on Saturday, leave Magic mountain at like 8pm, drive back to the parish, they drop you off, you picked up by your parents like four in the morning or something. Something only teens can, can do, right? And it's just like when you're young, you know, you've got this, like, you just have these guys. I always say young people, you know, have safe, wholesome adventures. But this is the time for you to have adventures. When you're our age, the adventure of life is just making sure you paid all your health insurance premiums on time. And you, all the bills don't get you, you got them and you, you're managing everything but to have that and to like really create those kind of core memories for them. However, though I do get concerned when it, when it becomes like this, oh, we can raise them better than you, so we're gonna take them away from you. Which is also hard though I'll bring up is like, I think a big problem like for me. Well one like when you want to evangelize and bring in non Catholic teens, well then you need to have a place like, well, they're you know, you kind of equip them and they go back to evangelize their own families. Or. I think in a lot of cases, you've got these teens whose parents are really nominal. The teen gets on fire in the program, and then he's kind of evangelizing his parents, which is disordered and weird. It shouldn't be that way, but it just kind of is in the world we live in. So I. I think that what you're saying is, like, we can have some of that, but it shouldn't just be on the teen shoulders. Like, he gets on fire in the youth group. And maybe you do more activities where the parents come and the people really evangelize them are the other solid parents, you know. [00:27:28] Speaker B: Yeah. And that they're going to be the most effective too, obviously, because they're the peer group. But I think that overall, the idea should be. The default should be that family is kind of the core unit that. That you're reaching out to, not individuals, but really the family at this stage. And I also think that, like. Okay, so I was actually. We went a couple weeks ago to Catholic Family Land for the first time. Have you ever been to Catholic Family Land? [00:27:50] Speaker A: I keep getting invited and. And told about it. I want to take my children. They tell me, like, just tell them it's just like Catholic Disneyland. And I'm like, that's raising the bar way too high. I'm not going to set their expectations like that by ear. It's good. [00:28:03] Speaker B: Okay, so for I. I gotta just lay it out on the table. So if anybody Catholic Family is listening to this, you know, I'm. I'm saying this out of love, but, like, for years we were. I mean, okay, we would never even consider going there. In fact, when we told our older adult children who had the house that we're going to Catholic Family Initiative, they're like, we're not that type of family, Dad. I mean, that's how much it was. Like, we don't do things like that. But some families in our parish were going and that our kids are good friends with. You know, we're good friends with the adults. So we're like, okay, we'll at least give it a shot. Because they said very. You know, we trusted them. We. We. They're. We're good friends with them. They're good Catholics, good Catholic families. They love it. I'm like, well, it should. Let's give it a shot. So we went for the first time, and that was another environment that kind of what I'm talking about. But I do have one criticism of it I'll mention in a second and that is like, okay, so you have these events and they did separate talks at times. They an adult talk, they had a teen talk and they had a young, young people talk. They even divide like 10 and 11 year old girls, 10, 11 year old boys. I'm okay with that because that's more like a schooling thing. It's a, it's a week long thing. It's not like a permanent thing. Most of the day you're spent, you know, you're all together. But like during the afternoon, from like lunchtime till dinner time, it was like just free time. And they have tons of stuff to do there. They have a pool, they have a basketball court, volleyball court, you know, miniature golf, all this stuff. And it's an 800 acre property. So the kids, they're basically, they're like by once they totally eat. They don't even show up for lunch meals necessarily. But when they do, as soon as they're finished, they're like, I'm out of here. And you're fine with that? You're like, in fact, you encourage that. You don't want them to be clinging on to you. It's like, no, if you're cling on me, something's wrong here. So they're out there with their friends the whole week. And like, I don't even see them a lot of that during that time. But I know they're in this environment that is safe, it's good. But they're, they're, you know, they're with their peer group, they're doing fun stuff. It's not all like, oh, you have to be completely all Catholic stuff. You're playing basketball, you know, you're not like, you know, we're not talking about the faith every moment. But then there's an adoration chapel right, right next to the baseball field and stuff like that. So, so all of that is, is great. I will say the one thing it remind me of because I have not gone myself to Novus Ordo in years, like regularly. And so like, I don't really have the experience since 2011 is kind of when I started going to traditional Latin Mass and traditional at Mass type parishes. [00:30:20] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:30:21] Speaker B: And I kind of forgotten about the music. And so like now this is like, okay, there's two different forms of like common church music. There's the really bad Marty Hagen 70s, just crap. Nobody likes it except for boomers. [00:30:35] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:30:35] Speaker B: But then this was the more Steubenville Type, which I felt like there's something about that I don't like anymore. Okay. I'm just putting on my old man hat. I don't care. [00:30:46] Speaker A: Old man yells at cloud. [00:30:47] Speaker B: Exactly. That's exactly who I am. And I don't. And I. I embrace it fully. I got gray on my beer. What am I trying to prove here? Yeah, no, my problem was it's very much like pulling the emotional heartstrings. [00:31:00] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:31:01] Speaker B: And like, I felt like a lot of youth group now, they actually do it pretty well because they have good musicians of that. A lot of parishes, they, they, you know, it's not very well done. [00:31:09] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:31:10] Speaker B: And. But it's like this whole thing where, like, I worry that the common practice of the faith for a teenager is kind of disassociated from how it will be as an adult. So they have this kind of emotional, like, okay, let's kind of gin up this, you know, this emotional thing. Whereas, as we know, because we're older, typically masses in real life, as an adult is. You're trying to drag your kids there. You're trying to keep them focused. You basically go through the motions. You're trying to focus as much you can what's going on. But typically you're distracted about 80% of the time. You're at Mass and then you go home and the music may, you know, now I. Like I said, I go to traditional Mass. We have. I go to high Mass each week. We have this beautiful music. We have a professional choir. All that. I know that's not the norm, though. And so what I worry is, is that, like, this experience based kind of Catholicism they have as a teenager, it does not transmit when they go off to college or more likely after college, it's. They got terrible music. They got really kind of not. And like, if their faith was based upon a lot of this kind of emotional experience, will it fall apart when they, Even the ones who are serious as teenagers, will it fall apart when they meet, you know, hit the reality of what a typical Noah sort of parish is like. [00:32:29] Speaker A: Well, I think that that was a perennial problem that we talked about. I remember being involved in our life teen youth group, being one of the core members, one of the college volunteers. And that would. I think I started with that our youth minister, who was very wise, by the way, had a rule like you had to wait like six months after you graduated before you could come back on the team to. To be a volunteer, to. To do it. Like, you had to go and get your own adult life. You Couldn't just immediately just stick around. You go out, get an adult life. When you have that, then you can come back. And we would take young people, we would especially do. We usually did a retreat in the fall, in the spring, and we take them up to. From Phoenix up to Prescott in the woods, log cabins, you know, it's. And doing the. The retreats, sometimes they're confirmation retreats. That's another entirely different can of worms that I don't like. But these are. But I love the treats where they were voluntary and, you know, the kids wanted to be there and they'd have like the mountaintop experience. It's very emotional. You know, you're singing Matt Mar songs and you're doing adoration and there's, you know, powerful skits and teaching and talks and other activities. But. And we would always be like, tell them, look, it's not going to be like this when you go back. This is a shot in the arm. What's it going to be like? How are things going to be different? And so I think you're. You're correct on that point. I think the emotional experiences, they serve a good role for like, pre evangelization and like, to help awaken people. But then, like, we would always have a model of like pre evangelization, Evangelization and discipleship. So like, pre evangelization was. We had a. A life room with connected xboxes to get teen boys to come and hang out there. Something to bring them in, basically. Then evangelization, going on a retreat, learning things like that, and then going more to like Wednesday Bible study to be discipled to, and going to Mass regularly, going to daily mass and then doing something. So it's not like only going to like a youth mass. And I kind of agree with you. I don't. Youth mass is. Oh, man, you would. You would really. It's funny now. It's like when you look back, you're like, oh, no, I can't believe I did that. But I remember they. They did the thing where they invited all the young people around the altar during consecration. I'm really glad. There's probably like no evidence of that now. Our pictures of me from that to like, oh, that would be the greatest. [00:34:48] Speaker B: Thing if we found a picture of Trent Horn around the altar doing something like that that we. We gave it down on X. [00:34:54] Speaker A: No, no, we. No, we've. No. For youth ministry, there is a fair amount of things. Like there. There are things. You were allowed. There were. Joe, I'll just say it this way. There were Jokes you were allowed to make in 2005, you are not allowed to make it 20, 25. [00:35:09] Speaker B: Yes. [00:35:10] Speaker A: And thankfully, those are lost on a JVC tape somewhere that a VHS tape no one will have the technology to even play. So we should be all right. But yeah, I think that having that though, and it was really great. I'll tell you that what was hard about it. So I did youth ministry. I was a teen in it from like 2000 to 2003. And then I became one of the core leaders. And we like our parish in St Teresa, it was an. We had Father James Wall as the associate pastor, and Father Wall is now Bishop Wall of Gallup, New Mexico. And he like, quadrupled their vocations, you know, the first year from zero to four, which is, you know, going from like, consistent no vocations to like for your first year. And I mean, he has got. He is overseeing the poorest diocese in the country. Most of it is Native American reservations in Arizona and New Mexico. So it is. It's a tough job, but he is a wholly awesome man. And what was great about the youth group was like, we had these great college students in it and Father Wall would just come and play basketball. The best way to get vocations is to have normal priests. To have priests that young men say, that's the kind of guy I want to be like. And they spend time with that person, right? That is. [00:36:31] Speaker B: Yeah. The first Sunday we were at our fraternity parish in. In Florida, the first Sunday after Mass, there's like, there was a field next to the parish. There's two young priests in cassocks running around kicking the soccer ball, you know, playing soccer with them. And I'm just like, okay, yeah, that. That's going attractive to a lot of these young men than just about anything, because like, here are like athletic, normal priests, you know, doing like just having fun out there, kicking the ball in the hot. In the hot Florida sun too, in these cassocks. So I was impressed. [00:36:59] Speaker A: And that's what. Father Wall would play basketball. And he was good at it. And he would just play. Play basketball with the guys and hang out and talk with them. And so from that time period, we had like, like we had like eight people go to seminary. Six of them ended up becoming priests. And I know them and they're stall within the diocese and their rock solid priests just kind of coming out of that. So I mean, having these interactions. What was. What's hard about it though is like, especially pre 2002, you created these great relationships or like priests and college students who are really on fire about their faith. It wasn't just like, at the youth nights. It's like people hung out in groups at, like, the college students dorm rooms. You'd be out late, you know, going to football games and hanging out, talking and doing all this stuff and forming these solid relationships. And, like, the faith became this really tangible thing through thick and thin. And people went on to have great spiritual lives. The problem is these are boundary violations. And then later they gave us something called Safe environment because in 2002, we had the sex abuse scandal. And we joked about it at first, like, I mean, it's so interesting when you go back in time and see like, like, oh, wow, people. It's like when you look at, like, the Flintstones are smoke, they're smoking Lucky Strike cigarettes. It's like, how could we have known? It's like, you know, you. We were joking, like, oh, I can't give you a ride to Mass because I can't be alone with you. Like, now we're like, yeah, you really can't not be doing that. [00:38:22] Speaker B: You can't do that. [00:38:22] Speaker A: Yeah, but it's like. But it was like the first time the Hammerhead was dropped when Safe Environment was. It was like in 03 or 04, when the protocols were. Were put in. And it's a good thing. It was needed and it's still needed. But. But it is hard. It's like many of the ways. Think about, like, Father Boss. I mean, was Father Bosco following Safe Environment protocols? No, but it's like we need them in a sinful world. But it is hard because things that have a. Things that have a potential for great good just also often have a potential for great evil. [00:38:51] Speaker B: Yeah, Satan's going to use it and take advantage of it. Definitely. I. I think one of the things that, like, I wonder. Okay, this is kind of the debate between often between trads and like, people tend to know sort of about the Novus Ordo is, you know, we'll say something fact of, like, yeah, you might go to a unicorn parish Novus Ordo, but, like, the average is not very good in how it celebrates the liturgy. And I would wonder, is that also true about what we're talking about here with youth group? Yeah, maybe you were a unicorn youth group. [00:39:20] Speaker A: Oh, I know. No doubt. [00:39:22] Speaker B: Yeah. So the average youth group that a parish feels like they have to have because that's what parishes do again, going back, that's the status quo. We have to have a youth group. We have to have a youth Minister, I would guess I wouldn't be surprised if the average one just isn't very good. And so it's like if a parish, if a pastor is like, okay, I need to really do something about my parish. Like, if you scrap all that, you're going to get so much pushback from the status quo Catholics. I get that. But like, instead you're focusing on, on more family life. And I would say, honestly, if, if you want to say, okay, do you focus on demographic? I don't think so. But if you did, the one I would say would be men in their 20s. That would be my number one demographic I would focus on because I think we lose them more than anybody because of effeminate parishes. But more importantly, they're the leaders who will be heads of their families. And I always want to say God bless the women who, mothers who are. Their husband isn't around or is not practicing the faith. And they are, and they're transmitting to their kids, God bless you. The Lord is with you, definitely. But the reality is when the dad is following the faith and really practicing it, it really makes it a lot easier then to transmit the faith to the kids. And so if you get these young, if you get, if you're going to focus on demographic in their 20s, so they're already adult, they're in, they're, they're out of college and now they're like, okay, if you focus on them and really attracting them. I do think, like other things flow from that, like you get their wives, you get the, you get their kids and things like that throughout as they grow older. But, but even that, I don't want to overstate that point. [00:40:58] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:40:58] Speaker B: But I think like, you know, all the stuff like for example, my kids are involved, my kids are still at home. They're involved in a lot of activities where they're with their peers all the time. We homeschool them. So like, you know, during the day, often they're not with their peers, but they spend an inordinate amount of time, it seems like, you know, they do plays like there was just a local. My daughter was involved in a play that was basically a bunch of Catholic kids. And it was very. Well, it was a woman at our parish. She, she basically did it. And you know, it was all teenagers and stuff doing this. And so that wasn't like a youth group. It wasn't even a Catholic thing. But all the kids in it were not all of them, but like most of them were practicing Catholics or in practicing Catholic families. And it was Actually great, because you didn't have to be a part of practicing Catholic family to be in this place. So you got the influence potentially. Like the pre evangelization, you said. [00:41:51] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:41:51] Speaker B: And so we had this, you know, this opportunity they spent and they spend so much time them, you know, parents of kids who are in plays. You know, it's. I, it gets ridiculous how much time they spend practicing and getting ready. It's, it's like, it's. I honestly was like, because I'm the old man curmudgeon. My wife was like, oh, my daughter wants, our daughter wants to be in this. I was like, I don't really want to commit to that and. But she was like, no, I'll drive them and you know that stuff. So it ended up being great. So the point is, is like there's a lot of opportunities for teenagers to be together and spend time together in their peer group, which I do think is important. That doesn't have to be a planned youth minist or youth event or anything like that. There can be lots of different events that these kids have that they can be involved in that allows a peer group. But then still they're not disconnected. And I feel like that's my problem with the great with their family, but also with like just the greater their parish as well. Like, I think like, you know, the teenagers should know at least by sight, I mean size of parish matters here. But they should know like the older, you know, maybe some like, you know, the people in their 60s and 70s in the parish, you know, on some level know some of them that aren't family members just because they're at these activities together, they're meet them, stuff like that. Because I think that can be a, you know, a multi generational thing. [00:43:13] Speaker A: What's sad is Eric, from their perspective, I think anyone over the age of 35 is older. [00:43:17] Speaker B: Yeah, well that's. [00:43:18] Speaker A: I might, I might as well be a senior citizen to many of these kids who are so skibidy. That is. [00:43:23] Speaker B: No, that's the thing is like if they sit down and they can talk to, you know, at a picnic or something like that and they have an interaction with somebody who is 70 years old and you know that that's a healthy thing, you know, all within the safe environment for people who are worried about that. But you know, the point is like you have activities where like. Because that's the thing is like at our, our active, our like socials we have after, after special masses, it's like people are just hanging out and there's all ages going off. And yes, they do congregate. But sometimes, like, for example, we have the old man table, you know, where I sit with like some other guys who are in their 50s and 60s and stuff like that. And we talk about things, but. And then I noticed there's usually a table near us which is the young guy table in their twenties will often will intermingle as well. And like, we'll have great conversations. And I think that's very. A very healthy thing. And sometimes a teen young man will come over as well. And I think that's great because then. And we can, you know, interact with them, encourage them, they can encourage us and you know, and they can learn from us, hopefully, and we can learn from them. So I think that's a much more healthy environment. [00:44:25] Speaker A: Well, I think that. I think. And I might have to do more research to see where this arises, but I think just the concept of a youth minister is something that's probably borrowed from Protestantism or at least evangelicalism. Why I. I joked with our. Although we don't do it like they do. I remember when I was a teen in Phoenix in early 2000s, telling our youth minister, like, I went to other. Sometimes I go to other Protestant events to see like, what they're doing. And the youth pastor, he's not a youth minister. He is. I mean, he is like the number two pastor at the church, and the church heavily, heavily invests in him. Like I remember in Scottsdale, one of the youth pastors there, he drove a hummer. Like he was well compensated because he was seen as like this major figure to bring in these. This vital young element into their church and is like second in command almost to the, to the lead, the head pastor, the senior pastor, you know. And so in a lot of processing youth groups. So that's a lot different, you know, because we have to use the term minister really loosely here with like, youth. Technically you're not, you're not an ordinary minister of anything. But, you know, you, you. You serve this apostolate. You have this, this aim of serving others. So we, we have the title, but nowhere near the authority or the, the. The presence of what, what's invested in there. So I think maybe instead of like youth minister as a position in a parish, just something like director of evangelization. [00:45:56] Speaker B: Right. [00:45:57] Speaker A: And so who are we evangelizing? Our main priority are the families within our parish. But I do think it's always important to keep youth specific events without them being cringy or inauthentic for. Because you don't want young people whose families are very nominal to feel out of place. Like we want all the Catholic families to come. It's like, well, my parents kind of suck. You know, it's like you want, there needs to be a space I think for them to be able to come where it's like, you know, hey, we're just, you know, we're all gonna go. Well, how they got me was when In N Out was opened in Phoenix, back in would have been 012001 I think it was like in it. And then we got on the bus and got to go try in and out and one of the kids got the, the 20 by 20, this monster 6 foot 5 inch, you know, 250 pound kid from the wrestling team like forking a knife and threw a 20 by 20 in and out burger. And we're all cheering them on. Once again it's about teaching the faith but letting them have those adventures, some wholesome memories together. So I, but I, but I agree with you. When it gets cordoned off into that, then it can get start to be weird and bad or inauthentic. [00:47:07] Speaker B: Yeah, you know, it's funny. I actually came to the practice of faith through a Protestant youth group, you know, and it was very much as, I mean I was starting in like, I think it was sophomore year. I started hanging out with the wrong crowd, drinking, doing stuff like that. And, and then like my sister corralled me into going. She was going to youth group at our, at our church and she cried me to go into it. And I went on a retreat, a Protestant youth retreat. And I, you know, gave my life to Jesus, you know, did the altar call, all that stuff. And it really did have a major impact. It was all emotional and I, and that, but that's not bad. That's, there's, there's a place for emotion. [00:47:41] Speaker A: Well, it's like when, it's like when you start a fire, it's like you need the stuff that burns really fast but you can't keep going with that. [00:47:47] Speaker B: That's right, exactly. And so that really changed my life. I mean I, I after that I at least attempted to, to live as a Christian, you know, and still this day. And so I very much credit, that is very important. But like you said, it was, it was a little bit different than the Catholic in that the, the, it was the associate pastor who was the youth minister, you know, the second in command and we were a smaller Methodist church, so we didn't have hummers or anything like that. But, but he was very, I mean he was, it was, it was huge. And so it was. But I, I willing to bet though just kind of. I know some of them as well. Like a lot of the people who were in that youth group didn't really continue to practice after they left because it was very much based upon active fun activities. Yes, we would have teachings. Okay, you want to hear a cringe, you know, thing I'm glad there's no video of. We had a Sunday called Youth Sunday where they picked two people in the youth group to preach a sermon. And yes, they did pick me my senior year. [00:48:42] Speaker A: So this is at a Protestant. Yes. Okay, whatever. Anything goes there. [00:48:48] Speaker B: I know. So I preached a, I preached a sermon at a Protestant church once. I didn't become Catholic till college. But the point is, I'm not saying they didn't do any teaching, but it was very, I mean the pre evangelization I feel like is, is overemphasized it seems. And I've been at other parishes, I've seen the parishes kind of what they're active, it seems. There's so much emphasis on the fun. It's like, well, you know, living as a Catholic is awesome. It's very joyful, it's very happy. But it's not fun. It's not fun. I mean it's not supposed to be and we have fun times. But like penance is supposed to be a key part of being a Catholic. And you know, how much is that emphasized? Like, because I look at, do this with my own kids and I look at all teenagers as not really teenagers, but just young adults that really once they get to be 13 or 14, I start to treat them obviously not totally like an adult, but like the point is, is like I'm thinking, okay, now you are really should be treated. I mean our, our Blessed Mother, you know, probably, you know, you know, denunciation when she was probably like 14 years old. It's not like impossible for a 14 year old girl to have very mature thoughts and things like that. So I think they should be treated much more like young adults. And like part of that would be like for example, not making, you know, like okay, it's all fun and games, you have that. But like there is like this idea of penance and Because I think young people respond to that when they're, when they're challenged. Right. That's what JP2 really was very good at like emphasizing absolutely call them to something greater and I think they will take up that call. And so, but I don't see that in a lot of the way, youth groups are kind of focused on just like, okay, let's. We want to keep. And. Because the fear is you're going to turn them away. [00:50:31] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:50:31] Speaker B: And, like, I feel like, honestly, I think half the stuff done at parishes is with that fear. It's all fear based. Like, oh, we don't want to turn. [00:50:38] Speaker A: Away, but it's like we got vanilla homilies. Because you don't want to offend people. [00:50:41] Speaker B: Yeah, right. Exactly. So I. I just think that, like, when. If you have youth activities here and there, I'm. I'm fine. I'm not like, saying, okay, never have activities that are geared towards youth. It's when they become a siloed group that it's like there are kind of a separate entity almost from the parish and that they do everything different. They do Masses different, they do teaching different, they do activities different. When that becomes the fact, you know, kind of the default. I think that's. That's not what it show. What this, you know, this report I print out, you know, and what other things are saying is. Is that, you know, because they also mentioned community is like the. They said if we had. If we had to put it in a single word, it is community. [00:51:23] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:51:23] Speaker B: And I think community is not these artificial groupings. Community is literally the whole parish. Every single member of the parish is part of the community and should feel part of. I'm not part of, you know, St. John's Youth Group. I'm part of St. John's right. You know that. You know that from a very early age that you're part of this until the, you know, till the day you die, if you live in the area. So that's kind of my. My main, you know, focus, I think of the way parishes should treat the youth. [00:51:55] Speaker A: Yeah. And I think we actually have a lot of common ground here. I think that youth ministry should exist as just a facet of parish evangelization. And you just recognize there are other groups, and each group has to be reached in different ways. It was funny when you brought up the idea, if we're going to have a group, let's just have one that reaches young guys in their 20s. What's hard, I'm like, oh, could we drop the age a little bit? Start at 13 to have young men to have older, young, older young men to look up to. But would that be off putting to the adult men? But it's like. But it's like when we. I feel like when we really start losing them, though, the problem is I think most surveys say you start losing them around like 10 or 11, 12. So I think that's where like there's this idea like we need to have something to reach them. But I think just doing more like, hey, if there's a talk, it doesn't have to be. Just be the teens, the parents can come too. And I've been to a lot. I mean maybe it's just like, maybe it's just me if I'm invited, but I. My experience and this is also hard. I'm gonna be speaking from ignorance here because the way we did youth ministry 20 years ago, I'm sure it's just so radically different from how it's going to be done today. But like the closest, the only experience I have with youth ministry nowadays is when I'm invited to be the speaker and I come and I give a talk to the young people who are there. And in many cases the adults are there. I don't know if they came just because I'm there and they want to hear the talk. And that's an anomaly. But I'm sure the challenges that are faced now with young people, I mean Even back in 2004 and five we were having problems with young people wanting to just be at home on their Xbox game consoles, having a hard time. I remember in 2001 or two to get young guys, young teenage boys to come who are not really that into church. How do we, you know, on Thursday afternoons we set up four Xboxes with a local area network, you know, a 16 player massive game of four TVs. And I mean I still, I still miss that as there's a, there's an article in the, the Onion. I think like it was something like depressed 38 year old man longs for that one great rocket kill on Blood Gulch he had in 2002 or something like that. I'm like, oh, you're speaking to me. The Onion. And so like we would do that play for like an hour and then we would go to daily mass. So it's not like a hyper kid mass, like hey, it's just a normal run of the mill daily mass, then maybe get food afterwards and then that, you know, that's that. And it was a good bonding time. But then we started, you know, people, it's like, hey, I don't need to come, I don't need you guys for this. I can do this at home with my wi Fi. So now with smartphones and everything else, it's, it's finding a Way to pull not just the kids, but the families, because we're all addicted to our smartphones. I love your recommendation for the dumb phone app, by the way. I'm gonna. I'm gonna get that soon right here. Yeah. But we're all addicted, so it's like a parish to be like, hey, we're doing a family activity. Getting everybody off their screens and being in real life. I think that's really good. [00:54:50] Speaker B: Yeah. One of the things I enjoy at our socials, often almost nobody has their phones on open, and I think it's a very good thing because they're having fun, they're having a good time. The last thing I want to bring up, which is my. My big criticism of youth ministry as I've seen it, as I experienced it, is I. And this is where I'm going to pull out my TRAG card. I really am uncomfortable with kind of the emphasis on sex and chastity that is done in these environments. And the reason I'm uncomfortable is. And I've kind of changed over time. Time my views on this. Like, I totally get how important it is in our world today with chastity for teens to practice chastity. I mean, talking about smartphones, I don't think kids should have smartphones. [00:55:32] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:55:33] Speaker B: Because of, like, it's just a porn device. And so, like, I definitely, you know, I've kind of developed on that. My kids, my older kids, when I think I let them have a smartphone when they were, like, 16. Now I'm like, no, not till you're 18. Because when you're 18, you're an adult. I'm gonna treat you like an adult. You can decide if you want to have a smartphone. [00:55:47] Speaker A: Yeah, sure. [00:55:48] Speaker B: Can't stop you. But before then, you're not getting one time. [00:55:50] Speaker A: Right. [00:55:51] Speaker B: And so. But the. The problem is, is that I do think that there is a real problem with talking about sex in these kind of public environments. Usually they're smart enough not to do it. Boys and girls together. But I've seen some cases where they. They still talk about. With boys and girls in the same. And I think that's awesome. [00:56:10] Speaker A: We would. Sometimes I remember when the curriculum we were following, we get into moral theology and those topics would come up. I think we would start the night together. But for. For discussing it, I think we would separate into. [00:56:23] Speaker B: Right. And that makes. In. That makes. And obviously it should be separate if you're gonna do it all. But it seems like almost every youth conference has to have somebody give a talk on chastity. And sometimes they separate, sometimes they don't. [00:56:35] Speaker A: Sure. [00:56:35] Speaker B: And the fact is, is like, I know we don't live in an ideal world yet at the same time, the proper place for children to learn about that is in the family life, in from their parents directly. And when the parents know that's appropriate because one of the things is like every once in a while we'll think, hey, this, this event, there's some event for teens that we think might be nice for our kids to go to a talk or something like that. And inevitably we always have to do some research. Like are they going to talk about something inappropriate? I will say I went to a. Once I went to one, I brought two of my teenage girls with me and it was a, I won't name her. It's a prominent speaker and it was highly inappropriate for my kids. Like I, I'm not naive enough to think that there weren't kids there, that it might have resonated with something like that. But it was not appropriate for my kids because they had not been exposed to some of the things. And the way she talked about it was very kind of crass and stuff. And so I was like, oh my gosh, this is, and I told my wife, I'm like, I'm sorry, but that, that we totally screwed up. Haven't gone to this. At least I was there, so I knew that. [00:57:42] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:57:42] Speaker B: But the point is, is that like, I really think that like the, the, the, the emphasis has to be on training up the parents on talking about it and teaching them and things like that. And because I do think there is a problem with talking about it publicly, especially how some speakers go more in depth than others in details. And I just think that's not, I think it does more to stimulate to, to titillate and things like that than it does to really teach chastity. And so I think that's, that's another case of where we're like hyper focused on the youth and not having just a healthy environment they live in where they're learning from their parents and things like that. And I get. Some parents are going to be better at that than others. [00:58:25] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:58:25] Speaker B: But ultimately is their responsibility. It's not, you know, you know, George, the youth minister's responsibility to teach some, you know, 14 year old boy about sex or something like that. In fact, that's where I start getting real cringy and, and start wondering like, you know, I think it causes more problems than it could potentially solve. [00:58:45] Speaker A: It is, it's very difficult. I, I do see the Merits, like, I think that, you know, I think Jason Evert has done incredibly good work to encourage young people to be chased and I've never, and, and I don't recall him ever like speaking in a lurid way when he, when he's, when he's talking about stuff, he's just very matter of fact about it. I think the only problem with Jason's stuff, and I don't think you might be saying this, is that you'll do the talks and some. Sometimes you just hang on to your old talks for a while and you'll, you have like a Saved by the Bell reference, like time out. It's like, oh, man, that, that would, I mean, I love that reference, but that's going to fly way over the head of Jen Alpha. Right? Yeah, right, exactly. But, but you're right, like I, I have seen really good chassis speakers and I have seen others where I was just like cringing the whole time, like, woof. And you're right, I, I think there is, there is a dangerous temptation when speaking about sexuality to be too graphic. [00:59:45] Speaker B: Right. [00:59:45] Speaker A: Where you get graphic enough, it's pornographic, you know, but that even if it's not your intent to arouse, it just becomes graphic and it has an unintended effect. So. Especially if you give like graphic testimonies. Yeah, it is, but then, but then it's like the, the other extreme. You. What's hard is we need to instruct young people, but if we speak about it in such an obtuse way, they'll just scratch their heads. Like if you do an entire talk about, about masturbation, but you only use the phrase, I think someone. There's. The priest is just talking about self abuse once over and over. And this young kid was like, is he. Did he mean like hitting yourself in the head? Yeah, right, right. And it's like. And you use too many euphemisms that like, you don't know what's actually being talked about is. Oh, it's, it's rough. [01:00:33] Speaker B: There's such a wide range among these kids about what they know and what they've been taught and stuff. [01:00:38] Speaker A: That's the problem. [01:00:39] Speaker B: And that's why, like, I don't, I mean, because like my kids, like, they're not, they're by the world standards are super sheltered, but like, maybe by some trad standards they're not as sheltered, you know, so. But the whole point is I respect these, I respect, there's a spectrum of. And also it's going to be within a family. Like, for example, Often the second and third kid is going to be more exposed than the first kid simply because from the older sibling or something. [01:01:03] Speaker A: Totally. [01:01:04] Speaker B: And so the older sibling might be the youngest in kind of attitude because they don't have an older sibling to, to move it along or anything like that to talk about this type of stuff stuff because like, you know, the oldest child doesn't have an older sibling who's dating somebody or something like that. And like all these things are like you cannot, you cannot. There's, it's not one size fits all. So like I would think you might have a priest who's talking about like the moral theology stuff like that. But then perhaps the pastor would recommend or even potentially purchase maybe a book for the parents of going through some of the details. Like we, you know, we looked far and wide and I would just say it it if you want a good like book for a parent on a lot of these issues, I go to the SSPX like bookstore and I find one from the 50s and I know I can adapt it for today but because it does it. It's amazing how like it will go through the actual like not graphically but it will go through all the details for the parents and then you can then talk to the kids. [01:02:04] Speaker A: I'm just thinking of these books. It's like the sin of man thinking he can dominate nature through contraception. What is next, thinking he shall walk on the moon that God created or something like we might need to update this a tiny bit. [01:02:16] Speaker B: Yeah, right. [01:02:17] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:02:17] Speaker B: I mean there are, yeah, they're definitely. [01:02:19] Speaker A: I read, I read like tan books on church history that just like stop in like 1920 and this legacy of the Vatican Council. Who shall see what the future holds. [01:02:28] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, I, I know. I've read, yeah. The church history book by Father Lau. Yeah, it's got some good ones in there, some dated references. But the point is, is that like that's the whole way God created us to, to learn these things is from our parents because our parents know us. I know that like for example, one of my girls when she was maybe 14 could hear certain things, but another one of my girls, her sibling at 14 might need to hear it a different way. I mean, obviously my wife is the one who teaches my, my girls about this stuff, not me. But, but, but the point is, is like everybody, every literal individual is different and the parent knows best how. What that kid can handle. And so that's, that was my final kind of critique of the generic let's have the sex talk or the Chastity talk, other than just like a very high level moral theology. I really don't think pastors or, you know, priests or lay leaders should be talking to the kids about this stuff. [01:03:25] Speaker A: I, I would just say it's, my thoughts are that I think the topic should be addressed in some way. But it's like you've, you've got to have all your ducks in a row and prepared and parents are, are on board. I think the other problem is it's, and this is the going back to the problem with youth ministry in general is just like, how do we help serve young people if their parents are quite nominal and sometimes the parents have good hearts. They're nominal, but they're like, I know this will be good for you. I can't give you what you need, but maybe these people can. [01:04:01] Speaker B: Right. [01:04:01] Speaker A: And so they kind of like ship them off not to like get rid of them, to be like, you know, they can help you in a way. Like I can't or I feel like I'm not able to. So like, like when it comes, it's funny, like with chassis talks, like, I don't do chastity talks. Like, I think of a chastity talk. It's like something, you know, at the end of it, it makes you cry and you're gonna really work really, really hard and have sex before marriage. Oh, I think like, did you hear a standard chat? And I, and I'm just not that kind of a speaker, but I, I have done talks. I, I prefer talks on sexual ethics. And so I, I try hard to speak about it in a clinical and frank way without being salacious. [01:04:39] Speaker B: Right. [01:04:39] Speaker A: And just trying to approach it really with a personalist, philosophical kind of argument and some theology of the body, but without being lurid about it. But yeah, so I, I agree with you about the hazard, but I think also just like the hazards that come from not engaging young people and when they find out the hard way, that can just be so far, far worse than the hazard. It's like, there's the hazard of scandal, but then there's also the hazard of fornication and awful things. And sometimes I find scandal to be the lesser of the two evils in that. But people can reasonably disagree on that. [01:05:18] Speaker B: Yeah. And I think the key is that you can't ignore the subject. The, the key is that you really work with the parents to assist them as much as possible. But like you said, the problem is some parents are checked out. Some parents might be, actually be like, here, have your, your porn device at 13 and we don't care what you see. And so that kid really has a challenge. And I, and I, and I respect that. I understand that. But yeah. [01:05:42] Speaker A: So well, a good book. I'd recommend then on this subject. Not to be self serving about, but I do legitimate think it would help people. I co authored a book with my friend Layla Miller I'm sure you're familiar with. Yes, it was a wonderful co author experience. We wrote a book called Made this Way, how to talk to kids about tough moral issues. So the book is called Made this Way. Trent Horn, Layla Miller were the co authors and it was a wonderful co author experience because Layla is just an absolute spitfire. [01:06:12] Speaker B: I love it. [01:06:13] Speaker A: She's a Catholic mom, Catholic grandmother. She will tell it like it is. So in writing the book, we would do a chapter on like pornography, contraception, homosexuality. And we divided each section into three parts. Here's what the church teaches, here's how to explain it to little kids and here's how to explain it to big kids. And the dividing line is puberty. Like talking to a kid before puberty is just different than after puberty. And that's a natural dividing line. How you explain these different topics. Transgender, premarital sex, sex, things like that. And it was a great experience because Layla would just like give me this fiery stream of consciousness of her experience as a mom teaching these things because she's gone through the whole gamut. And then I would go through in this, just shape the mold and add all the footnotes in. And so it was a great experience. And so I would definitely recommend the listeners, if you, you feel out of your depth explaining these tough topics, especially sexuality issues to your kids, regardless of age. I recommend Made this Way by myself and Layla Miller. I think you'll find it very helpful. [01:07:14] Speaker B: Yeah, that sounds great. In fact, I think I'm going to pick it up because I did not know about that one. So that, that's great. [01:07:19] Speaker A: So. [01:07:20] Speaker B: Okay, I'm gonna, I'm gonna stop it here. But I appreciate this. I did not get crushed by facts and logic, but I was, you know, just not destroyed. But I did learn a few things. That's okay, good. I think it was a good discussion though. Also, I just, I want to remind everybody to keep praying for Trent's wife Laura, and that she, you know, would be completely healed and that nothing would come back either because it's, it's not, it's not fun. I mean, I don't know your guys age, but I know you're younger than me. So having. I know you have young kids, so having that happen to the mom of the family. I know, is very. Can be upheaval. A lot of upheaval. We'll just say that that's. [01:07:53] Speaker A: Well, yeah. Right. Right now, I am running on fumes. The. The hard part is Laura just gets really tired easily and can't do a lot of the things she used to do because she's trying to recover her speech, her reading. So I'm double duty. Like, today, I. I drove the. I woke up early, drove the kids to school, went to Jiu Jitsu class, got slammed by a guy who teaches a SWAT team how to defend themselves, which is good. That's how you learn it. You got to fight the people that are. You got to fight the monsters to get better at it. [01:08:25] Speaker B: Then. [01:08:25] Speaker A: Then get home, then fix up stuff, and then come to this. Then I got to go get the kids, then help pull them all together. But, yeah, no, the prayers are definitely. We've been feeling the effects of them, and so continue to be very helpful. [01:08:38] Speaker B: Yeah. So let her know we're all praying for her, and we'll continue to do so. [01:08:42] Speaker A: Thank you much, sir. [01:08:44] Speaker B: Okay, everybody, until next time, God love you.