Can Being Nice Save the World? (Guest: Robert Greving)

[00:00:15] Speaker A: So, Rob, I get these books sent to me by publishers all the time. And I have three categories of books that I get. One are books that I'm already very interested in. And I'm like, okay, I know this one's going to be a home run. I'm excited about it. Another category is the ones that, like, literally, they go in the trash sometimes or they're at least. I'm just like, there's no chance. I mean, I got one. I won't say what it is. But anyway, I got one from a publisher recently. I was like, I don't know why they thought I would like this book. And then there's books that I don't really know about. I'm like, but interesting enough. And so I pick them up and I read the first chapter. That's kind of my way to figure out, okay, and that happened with your book. So the Apostolate of courtesy. And of course I was. Because you wrote it and you're a writer for Crisis, I was like, okay, I, I have to at least, you know, read the first chapter. And I told you this in an email, but I just want everybody else knows I finished it within a day. I, I, I just kept on reading. I was like, I remember the first chapter. I'm like, oh, I gotta read. I gotta keep reading this. And, like, I'll be honest, like, when I first saw it and Kevin Answers told me about the postulate of courtesy, I think a lot of people, and I hope this isn't the case, hope everybody picks it up, but I think a lot of people, their initial response is just like, oh, you know, he's going to talk about how to be nice, or something like that. And that doesn't really matter much, but I found it to be a very good book. And in fact, not only that, I'm going to make my teenage children read it so they learn about this stuff. So anyway, I just wanted to start with that. So, but thank you for coming on the program to talk about being courteous. [00:01:44] Speaker B: So thank you. [00:01:46] Speaker A: Okay, so I kind of want to start. One thing I want to start with, we'll talk more about kind of some of the themes of the book, but in the kind of the conservative, more traditional Catholic world, being nice has actually gotten kind of a bad rap. Because I don't know if, you know, but like, the whole Michael Voris thing he did at the church and Nice and he, I think he had some legitimate criticisms. By the way, whatever you think about him, he had, I think he had legitimate criticisms that at times it seemed like church hierarchy, in particular, they put, okay, we have to be nice at all times. They never called out sin, never called out heresy. It seemed it was seen as a sign of weakness. And, of course, being courteous is part of being nice, although they're not the exact same thing. So what I want you to do is just to start off, kind of define what you mean by courtesy, and then also why you think it's so important that you wrote an entire book about it. [00:02:42] Speaker B: Okay, so why is it important? Well, I think it was St. Paul who said, you speak the truth with courtesy. So we need to speak the truth. And, you know, definitely these days, there's a lot of areas where maybe we could be doing better on that. But I think the important point is that we do it with charity in the sense that, you know, we have to realize we're talking to other people, other human beings, other people made in the image and likeness of God. And secondly, what is the purpose of our speech? Are we there just to win an argument, or are we there to help bring people to the truth? If you're there just to win an argument, then, yeah, you know, you go forth with all the barbs and everything like that. But ultimately, I mean, we're here to reach the truth, both bring the other person the truth, and maybe that other person is going to bring us to some truth that we don't know about that we haven't considered. So I think that's where courtesy comes into play. I use a quote from a friend of mine in the book where he says, rather than you against me, it's you and me in search for the truth, you know, so I guess I'm kind of playing both sides of the issue there. We definitely need to speak the truth. And to some people, that's going to be offensive. That's going to nettle them a little bit, or more than a little bit. But at the same time, we do need to say it. But how we say it makes such a difference. I mean, you know, I'm sure we've all known people, and we can bring up lots of Saints who were St. Francis de Sales, the man I mentioned in the book, for example, never backed down from speaking the truth. But at the same time, he did it very courteously. I mean, in our own age, we can think of people such as Mother Teresa, St. John Paul the Great, you know, lots of others who were, you know, beacons of the truth, but yet they were very courteous people. And I used GK Chesterton, a lot in there as well, because he was a man who, I mean, he took on every issue of the day, never backed down. Yet some of his closest friends were people that he disagreed with very much. You know, George Bernard Shaw, H.G. wells. And the reason was because he was so courteous to him, you know, they knew that he was not attacking them personally, saying, oh, you're a bad person, whatever. They knew that he was there to help reach the truth. And he did it in a very charitable, even joyful way. [00:05:28] Speaker A: So how exactly would you then define courtesy? Because, you know, we have some words that are almost like synonyms, you know, being nice, being courteous, being polite. How would you, you know, you used the word courtesy. You didn't use the word nice. You didn't use the word politeness or anything like that. And how would you kind of define then courtesy? [00:05:48] Speaker B: I would say it's a, it's a respect for the dignity of the person. Both my respect for your dignity, your respect for mine. So wherever that is, in whatever situation we're in, we're going to respect each other here. I mean, and that can just simply be we're passing the person on the street. We look at them and smile and say, have a good day. You know, it could be we meet the person at the grocery store, or it could be we're gonna have a discussion here about abortion, you know, or something like that. Well, okay, then you're going to be polite to me with this and I'm going to be polite to you. We are still going to disagree. And we may, because, you know, take abortion, that's an emotional issue. We may get, you know, upset about it, emotional about it, but we're going to reign in our emotions so we can reach some sort of maybe not agreement, but at least be clear about what we're talking about and not get into attacking the person there. I mean, I don't know, it just seems to me like these days we go for the juggler right away, thinking that, well, if I put you down and put you on the defensive, I win the argument and that's the wrong way to go about it. You know, it's. It's more the idea of again, just respecting that person and takes a lot of mortification. It takes a lot of self restraint. It takes a lot of courage too, I think, because sometimes you do have to, you know, realize that you need to stand up for things and realize you may appear weaker in some sense because you're not being brusque or you're not being, I Don't know, overly zealous about it, but yet you need to do it that way because the. How you do it I think affects people a lot more than what you're actually doing sometimes. [00:07:45] Speaker A: Right, right. So what kind of areas? One of the things I thought was interesting about your book is that it covered a lot of different areas of life. And it surprised me a little bit, you know, how courtesy covers so many of these various areas of life. From, you know, how you talk to somebody. But also you mentioned how you dress and how you eat, I think, and how you, you know, just all these different things. What generally would you say, like, what actions in general would you say that the. The virtue of courtesy covers? [00:08:19] Speaker B: Well, it's really your whole life because, you know, courtesy is the manners are the manifestations of our dispositions towards one another. So that starts with even as you said, how you dress, you know, if I come over to you, you invite me over to your house, we don't know each other that well. If I show up in a T shirt and jeans, well, what does that say? You know, or that's why we have a dress code at school. That's why you have a dress code at a lot of places of work. Because you want to present a certain, I don't want to say image, but it's, you know, how are you? How do. How you dress reveals how you think about that other person. Okay, speech, definitely. You know, the words that we use are so important because you can say a thing 10 different ways, and within that range of saying it 10 different ways, it can come across as either an insult or a compliment or, you know, reaching out to somebody. The whole issue of order. And again, maybe it's because I'm a teacher and I teach at a school, I get pretty high on that. Because how you treat the environment that you're in. By environment, I don't mean. Well, yes, I kind of do mean, you know, the environment of the whole earth and things like that. But, you know, do you pick up after yourself? Are you aware of when you leave trash on the floor, how that affects other people, especially at home? You know, I think parents can resonate with that a lot. But even at school, we have that issue with our boys. You know, we got to pick things up because it's not somebody else's job to pick up after your mess. And, you know, writing letters, for example, thank you notes, how again, meals, I'll talk a little bit about that and how you eat because you want those to be very pleasant occasions for People and to foster that virtue of camaraderie and gratitude and appreciation. So all those things are there because, you know, one expression that I have is, you know, we're not angels, okay? We live in a body. So what we do with our body, everything we do with our body, how we walk, how we talk, our posture, how we look at people, all those things reflect what's in us, which should be the message of Christ. All right? So all those things, not to be overly self conscious about it, but we need to be aware of that because if we're not, then even before we start to speak, we've either turned people away or maybe welcome them in. [00:10:49] Speaker A: Right now, how much of though is this is impacted by culture? What I, I'm thinking, particularly because you said somebody shows up in T shirts, T shirt and jeans. And I think some people will push back, say, well, yeah, maybe for your generation that might have represented something, but like for a 18 year old or 20 year old or something like that, it, it's like that's not even on the map for them. It doesn't show any, it's not really showing any disrespect. Or other cultures might do different outfits that they would think are more appropriate than others. And also, you know, just in, I mean, some of it's just the way you greet people. I mean, obviously the, the most. The example that comes to my mind immediately is in our culture we shake hands, but in other cultures, they bow to each other, things like that. So how much is courtesy just following cultural norms and, you know, and how much is it more deep, a deeper, you know, Christian virtue? [00:11:48] Speaker B: Okay, there I think you have two things. You do have the culture, right? But it is amazing that I think just about every culture has certain things where you're showing respect. Now, you're right. In our culture, you shake hands, you look the person in the eye. In another culture, it may be that you bow and you don't look the person in the eye. So you need to know the rules of that culture. And I think when you're in that culture, you do what they do short of sinning. I put that in the book. But you're obeying those rules of courtesy. All right, the rules of I'm in your house now, so I will respect your rules. In terms of the age difference, that gets a little tricky because I do think, and I don't mean to sound like an old fogey here, but I do think younger people need to be coached more on these things. Partly because maybe my generation, the older Generation has let them slide a lot for a lot of different reasons. But I think younger people really want that in a certain way. Because my experience is that most younger people are basically insecure. You know, they. They're kind of. That's why they do a lot of crazy things, right? Because they just don't know how to act. And so when you coach them on these things, you tell them, okay, we're going over to this person's house. They're not good. You know, this is the first time we met them or whatever. So we want to dress a certain way to show respect. Or you're going out to date this young lady, you want to show her that you value her company. So dress a certain way. Or we're taking a field trip and we're going to go visit the basilica. Well, we're going to a major basilica here, so we're going to wear our coat and ties again as a sign of respect for that place. May not be what you wear every day, but because we're going to a certain place, you do that again. What you have, what you're trying to be aware of is the other person, the other situation, the occasion. And it may not be the norm for you, but you're thinking of the other person. You're thinking of the other place. Okay, I don't. You know, you're right. I'm wearing a sweater and a tie here or whatever. If I go visit, if I were to meet the Pope, I wouldn't wear this. Right. Even though Pope Leo seems like a pretty, you know, informal and kind of casual kind of guy, I would still dress up because he's the Pope. Right. You look at his office rather than the person. [00:14:22] Speaker A: Right. And, you know, it's funny because I have six daughters, and I've told them that if any guy ever showed up and, you know, pick him up for a date and, like, honked on the horn for them to come out or showed up in, like, a T shirt and like, you know, ratted jeans or something like that. I would just go out and tell the young man, you can go home now. And it's because I would see very clearly they don't respect my daughter. Now, I know it's possible they simply have not been taught how you're supposed. They don't even realize they're not respecting my daughter, but they need to learn how to. And so I guess I would teach. [00:15:00] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, that would be a situation where, okay, maybe you tell the guy to go home and then maybe you call him later. And say, hey, I just want to know why that happened. Because he may not know. And that's that gentle fraternal correction there. [00:15:13] Speaker A: Yeah. And actually, you know, I think one of the things I noticed about that May, that your book made me think about is how much courtesy is antithetical to self centeredness. That when you're being courteous to other people is basically saying, I think you are important. And in fact, I'm willing to make sacrifices, be they wearing an uncomfortable suit because I'm in a situation that demands it because I respect you or I need to, you know, getting there on time, which might be a sacrifice for me. Okay. I just have to. I knew I was going to say this during this podcast. I just have to. I have always been somebody who's always on time to everything. And I've always thought that my, my dad taught me this was like, that's how it's a way to show respect for them because you're not wasting their time. And oh, I remember in high school and college I always had my best friends. The people I hung out with always relate to everything. I don't know why I would always be friends with them, but drove me crazy. But I just think. But the point is, though, that you're putting others first, which seems to be very core to the Christian. Right. Christian way of looking at things. Right, right. [00:16:26] Speaker B: I mean, you know, punctuality, as you said, that's a good example of that. And that's why it is a virtue. You know, you look at that chapter in Second Corinthians where St. Paul talks about what love is. The third thing he mentions is it's not rude. And maybe we kind of gloss over that and say, well, St. Paul just kind of being a little mismanaged here or what? You know, and you think, well, no, it's not. I mean, because it's the idea. It requires a lot of sacrifice. And you know, one of the things, as I said, I base this a lot on what St. Francis de Sales says. He will say that it. I've heard one commentator say that when you read St. Francis de Sales, he can kind of, kind of sound sort of nice. But you start trying to put that into practice and it's very mortifying, you know, to do all those little things because they are little things. We can overlook it so easily. It's not that important. I don't need to straighten up the room. Yeah, I can be a few minutes late. Oh, that's just how I always respond to people. And that's the point, you know, those little things are really, they're sort of like the pinpricks that get on our nerves day after day after day and can either build up our relationships or tear them down. I mean, you know, you're married, I'm married. We know that over time there are certain things where it's just like, oh my gosh, that person's doing it again. Or it's a, you know, the person we work with at the office. Things that just drive us crazy. But they're little things. And maybe on the one hand we should overlook it, but on the other hand, those are the things. It's like grease in a car or oil and oil on the wheels. You know, do they make things run smoothly or is it the sand in the, in the wheels? It kind of makes the thing break down after a while. And, you know, I point this out, especially in the chapter on things at home. A lot of times we'll have a big blow up about a certain thing or you keep leaving the towels on the floor or something like that. And it's because those little things get on our nerves day after day after day, and finally we blow up about it and boom, you know, there's, there's a ruined relationship or something like that. [00:18:39] Speaker A: Right. And the idea is if you're the person leaving the towels on the floor, you need to recognize, hey, this, it is an act of charity. Yeah, Right. May not by me, but it's act of charity. And you might even think it's stupid that it bothers the other person. [00:18:55] Speaker B: Oh, yeah, yeah. [00:18:55] Speaker A: But ultimately, if it does, it does. And so it's an act of charity just to say, okay, I'm going to do what I can not to try to bother this person. I think, I think you made great points in your book about at home because it, it might be. Seem a little bit counterintuitive, but it seems to me like that's actually the hardest place to practice courtesy because it's, it's kind of easy to be nice to the person at the, at the grocery counter. But like, at home, you're with these people all the time and you may, I mean, you may love them dearly. I'm not, you know, not challenging that, but doesn't mean you can't get annoyed. And I'm, I'm picturing how my family gets annoyed with probably a lot of things I do. [00:19:35] Speaker B: Yeah. No, I mean, it's just because especially at home, we're so familiar with these other people that we kind of think we can get away with more, you know, or they should know that that's how I do things, you know. Well, yeah, you know, Robert leaves his clothes on the floor or he doesn't wash out his coffee cup or things like that. Well, still then Robert needs to make the sacrifice to do those things and not have other people pick up after him. And again, it goes back to those little things that if we don't do it, it just makes somebody else's day harder and we can do so much to make those other people get off to a better start or something like that. And home is really hard because again, we do know each other so well. We take each other for granted, I think at home a lot more. But that's why that's the nitty gritty place where it all starts. [00:20:35] Speaker A: Now, I was pretty well brought up on most, on a lot of these kind of social graces, I think we call them, of, you know, shaking people's hands and stuff like that and you know, how you deal with people. But I think it seems like a lot of people aren't. And so obviously for people to learn some stuff, you know, get your book first Apostle courtesy. But what are ways that people can just learn? Like they might be like, you know, I'm, maybe I'm being discourteous and I don't even realize it because I don't even know what you're supposed to do in these various situations because they do seem, I mean, if you're, whenever you interact with another human being, it's an opportunity to be courteous or discourteous. I mean, literally every single time. [00:21:24] Speaker B: Right. [00:21:24] Speaker A: And so, but it might be where you don't realize, okay, I, I know, you know, when we were growing up we, maybe somebody might say when I was growing up, we wore shorts and, and, and T shirt and sandals to mass or something like that. [00:21:37] Speaker B: Right. [00:21:37] Speaker A: And so how, how does somebody who says, okay, I get that maybe I should be more courteous to others because it's showing charity them. Where do I even get started? [00:21:49] Speaker B: Well, first by the book. Yes, okay. But secondly, that's where it takes a lot of self reflection, I think. And I spend part of the book talking about how all this begins with prayer. So I think you got to spend some time in prayer and look at your day. How did I interact with these people? Did I, did I try to make their day a little bit easier? Could I have said something differently? And you know, one like you, I was brought up in, I think a very, I don't want to say not respectable Home. But a home where these things were stressed. And frankly, I did not take them to heart. You know, it took me a long time afterwards where I realized, oh, that's why my mom and dad were married for 52 years. You know, that's why people respected them so much, because they were people of such courtesy and grace. And as I got older and I realized that certain people had a great influence on me. I can think of different teachers, different priests, friends, co workers that I have here, and I stop and think, well, what, what is that? Well, it's because he does things a certain way or she did things a certain way. It. She always had time for me or, you know, when I. He phrased things a certain way. So, you know, you imitate people, stop and think about people that have been courteous to you or people that really made you feel special and then think, okay, well, I can do that. You know, I can smile. That person always seems to be smiling. I know he can't be having the perfect day every day. But he never seems to let his moods get to him. You know, he's always in a good mood. That's a hard mortification to me to put aside your moods and be there for other people. But you think of other people. Think of people or a lot of. A lot of this. I think of people in works of literature that I've read and I'm just, wow, that person was really a gracious person. I wish I could be more like him or her. So you start to think about it, or you read the Lives of Saints. Excuse me again. Francis de Sales was a great role model for me because I read about all the things that he did. And yet he was known as the gentleman saint. You know, he dealt in an era that was at the height of the Protestant Reformation. He could not live in his diocese of Geneva because it was held by the Calvinists. He was in the middle of a whole lot of disputes. He was in the court in Paris where there was a lot of gossip and backbiting and fighting like that, but everybody spoke well of him. Well, how did he do it? You know, and he outlines that in his book the Introduction to the Wild Life. But you looked at other people who have helped you. You, you just. I think you just need a lot of self reflection and thinking about it. [00:24:42] Speaker A: And watch maybe some Jane Eyre movies. [00:24:45] Speaker B: Yeah, Jane Austen. [00:24:46] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, sorry. Jane Austen movie. St. Jane Austen. Yeah, I. I've watched a number of those because I. Like I said, I have six daughters, so of course I have. [00:24:53] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:24:54] Speaker A: And it's kind of funny because we can. We can tend to make fun of those things, like the Victorian courtesy and, and I, you know, Victorian man or something like that, because we might see there's, you know, hypocrisy in it and things like that. And how would you kind of respond to that? The idea of being courteous to people when underneath there might be backbiting, there might be disagreements, something like that, but you're. You're kind of, on the surface at least, isn't that being fake? And that's. [00:25:24] Speaker B: Isn't that. [00:25:26] Speaker A: Isn't that criticism maybe, of being courteous all the time? [00:25:30] Speaker B: Yeah, Well, I think the first response is if something can't be hypocritical, then it's probably not worth much to begin with, you know, so. Yeah, you can say that about morality. Well, people sin all the time, so why do we have morality? Well, it's because there's a standard there that we're being hypocritical about. And so I think with. With the manners, certainly you can be hypocritical with them. So that's where I kind of get into the book. What's your motive? You know, it's sort of like with prayer. Do I go to prayer trying to tell God what to do and so other people will think that I'm a really good Catholic? Oh, boy. He always goes to Mass. I always see him there. No, that's not why I go to Mass. You know, I go to Mass to receive the Eucharist. Okay, so why am I courteous if I'm courteous? Because I'm trying to network, because I'm trying to simply edge out somebody else or basically, you know, be sycophantic about things. Well, then you're doing it for the wrong reason. And I think eventually that's going to come out. But you. That's why you need to. Again, where prayer comes into this thing, I'm. I'm trying to be courteous here because, again, I'm trying to respect you. There may. There may be some disagreements, but how do we handle those disagreements, you know, I think is a big part. You know, I, too. Jane Austen's been a big influence on me. I love her books and everything. And certainly there's a lot of criticism of the Victorian era or those characters and what have you, because a lot of them are hypocritical. But at the same time, I think the truth eventually comes out, you know, even in those works of fiction, the Jane Austen books or what have you People get found out. And sooner or later I do think that if you are hypocritical with this, people are going to find out and they're going to know you're being a phony. But if you are trying to do this for a genuine charitable reason, that too will eventually come out. And again, I point to people such as G.K. chesterton. He wasn't being phony with his courtesy or his genuine charity towards other people. And eventually that's why I think he made so many converts was because people realized he just a joyful, loving person. You know, Mother Teresa is the same way. Was she going through the streets to try to impress other people? No, it's because she really cared about those people right now. [00:27:56] Speaker A: What about. Okay, so today though, in our culture, if we, we when it comes to like political debates, religious debates and things like that, cultural debates, it very, we very much live in a cancel culture. And I'm not, and I don't think anymore you can say that's a leftist phenomenon. At least in my mind it's everybody. Because everybody is like, okay, if you don't agree with me on this, I want nothing to do with you. In fact, I've seen a huge rise. Now this is more of a leftist thing. I've noticed where children, when they get to be adults, they will cancel their parents because they have different political views from their parents. I mean, parents trying to raise them, you know, and, and you know, poured out their lives for them, but they just stop talking to their parents because their parents voted for somebody they didn't like or something like that. But, but just in general, how is it that we are supposed to deal with those with whom we might have very serious disagreements with that, on matters that matter, that, that really do matter, on topics that really do matter. How is it that we should go about interacting with them and, and being courteous to them yet without supporting their, their. I mean, let me just give an example then. Like a family member who's in a same sex relationship and both, let's say they, they have a quote unquote wedding and you know, they invite you to it or just they're inviting you over to their house with their, their same sex, you know, partner and stuff like that. These are real things that people have to deal with. And it's like, yeah, we might as a Christian say I don't want to cancel them, but at the same time I don't want to support what they're, their lifestyle either, which is harmful and I don't want like my kids to think that I'm supporting it. So navigate all that for us. [00:29:42] Speaker B: Yeah. Well, it's interesting because one of the reasons I started thinking about writing this book was, I forget how many years ago, but they started having these safe spaces on college campuses. And I just thought, now, again, I'm not trying to take sides on an issue here because I see both sides to it. One side was saying, I need to have a place where I can say what I want to say or be treated a certain way without having people offend me. And the other side is kind of saying, that's silly. But my thought was, here we have young people, 18, 19, 20 years old. These are going to be people leading our culture, all right? And they can't get together and talk about something without it being sort of sanitized, you know? And I thought, what are these people going to do when they're married? All right, you have a disagreement with your wife, are you going to cancel your wife? You know, or. And maybe that's where you're going with this thing, you know, are you going to cancel your children because they don't agree with you? You're going to cancel your parents? So, again, I think it has to do with respect, but it has to go both ways with this thing. So, I mean, we've had that. My wife and I have had that with people that we know where. Okay. Yeah. These days you have. There's nowhere you can go where you're not gonna find people you disagree with without finding people you disagree with and disagree with violently, perhaps, on certain issues. And you're right, certain people are gonna say, well, then I want nothing to do with you. That's where I think you have to say, if that's your decision, then that's your decision. I'm still here for you. Now, I can't go all the way with where you want me to go. I. Sorry. I can't go to that wedding. I can't let you bring your girlfriend or boyfriend over and have them spend the night in the same room together with you. And if you can't abide by that, I still love you. I'm still going to be here for you. But that's where. And again, the tone that you use, maybe you have to say, why? But there are going to be times where, yes, they're just going to. Other people are going to say, you know, well, then, fine, I don't want to have anything to do with you. But even there, I would say, don't close the door on them. Because we've had situations where it seems like people close the door on us for those reasons. But after a long time, they realized that they closed the door on us. We didn't close the door on them. And they came back not necessarily still agreeing on the issues, but realizing, wow, she still wants to be my friend. She still will listen to me. She's the one person who will still talk to me about things. And I think as parents, that's really hard to do with children because they'll go all over the map on things. It's the prodigal son sort of situation. You got to be there for them. You have to speak the truth with charity. And yet, you know, just realize that I'm still going to be there for you. I mean, you know, you look at our Lord, I mean, he's. He said things that really bothered people, but he didn't back down. But they realized they could still go to him because of the type of the person he was, the man that he was. [00:33:05] Speaker A: Okay, I want to get practical here. Let's say you, you go to your Thanksgiving dinner, your family's Thanksgiving dinner with extended family and, or even like immediate family, and a family member shows up with, let's say, their same sex partner, or maybe they're divorced and this is like a new person and they're living with that person. You know, they haven't gotten their marriage and all something irregular, obviously. What do you do actually, like when that person shows up with that, that, that partner or whatever. Do you, you know, how do you talk to them? Do you say anything? Do you shun them? Do you. I mean, like, really. I think a lot of people don't always know what, what should, what is the proper thing to do that would be both courteous, but most importantly, obviously, which it. Courtesy is a subset of charity. Like, what's the most charitable thing to do? [00:33:59] Speaker B: I think a lot of that has to do with a particular setting. So if, if we're, if I'm going over to somebody else's house, right, and yeah, there's another couple there that's a same sex couple. Well, I would be polite to them. I would say, hello, how are you? What do you do for a living? That sort of thing, you know, I guess I would try to be as polite as I could and it depends upon what is said, you know, if all of a sudden they come out with, you know, we're, whatever, we're going to now celebrate our marriage and we'd like everyone here to come, you know, may have to Say, well, you'll have to excuse us. We can't come to that. I think what a lot of people want to do in those situations, and I don't want to take sides here with this, but sometimes people want to shove that in our faces. And again, you know, look at our Lord. I'm sure he. He ran into people who are in regular situations all the time. That was sort of his life's work. Okay. But he didn't countenance what they did, but he still was loving to them, you know, the woman caught in adultery. All right, talk about. There's a person. Talk about an irregular situation. But what he said was, don't do this anymore. So, I mean, so, okay, you're at this dinner and depending upon the. If they're talking about the baseball game or something like that, I can talk to anybody about that sort of thing. But if they get into, you know, boy, I'm so glad our state has legalized abortion. Well, I'm sorry, I can't agree with that. Again, it's the tone that you take. You know, you don't say, oh, that's stupid. I think you're. You're going to hell, pardon the expression. But it's just, you know, again, I'm sorry, I can't agree with that. I take a different view of that. And if you lower that tone a little bit, then maybe you can have a decent discussion on it. If that other person just turns away in a huff, well, that's his or her problem with that. It can be very, very difficult. And I think a lot of it depends upon your temperament, too. My wife is a person who's much more engaging on those things. I will tend to. Just because I tend to be more of a recluse on things. I at times will be silent. My wife will prod me later. Maybe you should have said something there. And I've gotten more courageous over. Over the years. I think part of this is rehearsing. Sometimes if you know what a situation is going to, that those situations are going to come up, you need to practice things such as saying, you know, I think I just, I disagree with you there. Would you like to know why? Or. I'm sorry, you know, I'm sorry, but I can't agree with you there. You try not to be taken off guard. I mean, we know when those situations are going to come up. And then, you know, pray. Pray for a lot of gentleness and humility and courage at the same time. [00:36:59] Speaker A: I like what you said about, like, the tone away. You the tone of how you say something. Because I don't. I think we underestimate that a lot. And I'm going to talk. [00:37:08] Speaker B: We're gonna. [00:37:09] Speaker A: I'm asking in a minute about online discourse, but, like. Because a lot of our discourse is online, there is no tone almost. I mean, I know there is a little bit, but it's the whole body language and tone of voice, it's all gone. And so people can misinterpret, but I. I think that's a good way to put it. Like, if at the dinner table, all of a sudden somebody says, like. Like, isn't it great that, like, you said, like, we've legalized abortion in this. In this state or something like that. I think a natural reaction for a lot of us would be immediately. Some, you know, we put up our defenses, we get upset, and, like, rightly so, because this person is. Is, you know, celebrating the death of, you know, thousands and millions, millions of unborn babies. So it's like. It's not like a matter that we shouldn't take seriously. We should. But I think what happens, I think for a lot of us, then we don't handle it well. And. And I think what you said of just simply. I remember I knew a guy, this was years ago, and he was. He. He was talking. Oh, I. I'm going to butcher the story a little bit, but I remember how he was this very kind man, you know, had very strong Catholic beliefs. And, like, he encountered. I was there when he encountered somebody who. I think it was something about the Mass. And, you know, he was somebody. I don't know if he. I don't think he went to a Latin Mass, but it was something. It was years ago when there was no Latin Masses hardly. But, like, he went. He was very much like traditional liturgy. And somebody was saying, we're going to implement this, you know, terrible idea at their parish. And he just said to me as well, I, you know, I. I just want you to know that I. I think that the. The liturgy being reverence. Very important. I think it. It means a lot to me, at least. And I. I do think it's. It's. It's something that. That's very important. He said it, and it was all the tone. That's why I remember. That's why I remember it, because it was like. It was almost disarming to the other person, because it's like, almost like they were looking for a fight. And then all of a sudden, the guy was just, like, almost disarmed. The other guy and now it's like. And you. He almost, in a way, I don't think he intended this, but he, like, makes the other person feel bad. [00:39:17] Speaker B: Right, right. [00:39:18] Speaker A: You know, and so it just, like, I think that tone of how you then, you know, and I, I know different people are different personalities. Like, you know, I'm like you as far as, Like, I don't. Which people might not believe, considering what I do for a living. But I'm not looking for confrontation. [00:39:33] Speaker B: Right. [00:39:34] Speaker A: I. I tend to be. Try to reconcile and kind of keep peace and not try to pick fights. But I know people who. Their personality is just such that they love to debate, they love to fight their fighter types, you know, in all these situations. And often they. Their. Their first response is escalation instead of just. And it's. I think we think there's two different options here. There's either escalation or you compromise the faith. Like, those are the only two options available to us. And I think what you're trying to say is there is a ground of we stand firm in our faith in a way that hopefully allows the person more likely to actually listen to what you have to say ultimately. Right, right. [00:40:16] Speaker B: And I think you made a good point there. We tend to think that there are the two options. There's either the nuclear option or there's being a milk sop. No, there's a third option there, which is just simply to calmly, firmly, but charitably speak the truth. And I, you know, I'm sorry, I disagree with that. Or. No, I think there's a different way of looking at this. And it is amazing how often that will. You can just see it in other people. They get disarmed with it. They don't know what to do because they're expecting you to come back with the nuclear hand grenade and start a full fight with that. So when you do come back with just a simple, you know, calm response, it can really. It does take the level down, but then it can also lead other people to say, oh, well, that person's being calm about it. So maybe we can have a calm discussion about it. We're still going to disagree. We still may have completely opposite points of view on this thing, but yet it's just nice to know that there are people on the other side who can discuss this in a way. I mean, you know, I'm probably the most hidebound, conservative, reactionary Luddite person you'll ever want to meet. You know, but it's a situation where if you just realize, oh, that's a person too. You know, he, he seems like a nice person there. So maybe there's something there. And I've had that with on the other side where I think I look at somebody and frankly, I make my judgments on that person and that person comes back with a very polite response or very calm way of handling something. I think, okay, maybe I can talk to this person about things. You know, doesn't always happen that way. But it can also. [00:42:06] Speaker A: I think we said earlier in, in about being a. It can be a real motivation because you, you, you, your emotions could be going on inside that you're very upset because they might be attacking something you hold very dear or do you think is very important. And they may be doing it in a discourteous way to get you inflamed on purpose, kind, you know, in a certain way to get you. And we see that all the time. And yet you, if you can keep from kind of responding in kind, it can be a real mortification, which of course is a good thing and it can be offered up. So now I want to bring up though, the, the, the, the online discourse. And I, I know from your book and actually just knowing you and things you've written for us, you're not a fan. But is there, I mean, if your answer is simply, if the answer is no to this question, fine. But like, is there a way that we can really be courteous on social media, on X or Facebook? Because that's where you see. You get the most engagement. You get the most. In fact, I'm going to predict that this, this episode of the podcast won't do as well as some of the others simply because we're talking about being nice and that doesn't sell online. I should make a, like, have an image on something about like a fight or something, just to make it look to fake people out. But seriously though, like, is it possible even to have a courtesy? Because courtesy often is. In all the, in a lot of examples you give is these physical things you're doing, like, you know, looking somebody, shaking their, their tone of voice, you know, picking things up after yourself, stuff like that. Is it possible? And if so, how do you do it? You know, doing a possibility courtesy online. [00:43:57] Speaker B: Yeah. And again, you know, you're talking to a person who. I just, I don't engage that partly because I'm technologically incompetent. I do think it can be done, but it probably takes even more mortification there. I think you really have to stop and think about what you're posting and why you're posting it, how you're posting may be that you have to make a vow with yourself that I'm not going to Tweet something within 24 hours. You know, I need to stop and think about this, especially if it's a. Just. If it's something that's going to. I know this is going to dis. I mean, okay, we all have these situations. My wife is a lot more on social media than I am, and she has family members and friends all over the place, and they'll post things, whatever, and I'm not trying to get her in trouble with this, but, you know, so somebody posts something and it really rankles you, okay, they've. They've posted something about an issue that you really disagree with and you want to fire back with it. Well, you know, maybe you make that about kit for 24 hours. I'm just going to not say anything about this because you need to. You need to stop and think about that. And it's hard. I think it really is hard because the whole process of the social media is responding right away. I got to get something in there. The other person's got to get something, and the other person's got to get something in there. Frankly, I. I don't know where that's going to go in our culture, because it's gotten to the point where it seems like people are falling on one or two sides. Either we're going to go whole hog into this and be the sort of person who's always on social media, always responding, or there be the other side, probably more like myself, that's just saying, you know, I'm sorry, I can't keep up with all that. And I don't know which one is better or which one is worse, but there are people who do it successfully, I think. I mean. I mean, there are a lot of very good evangelizers on social media. I mean, the people at Catholic Answers are Father Mike Schmitz or Bishop. Bishop Barron is a great example. I don't necessarily agree with him on everything, but he's very charitable but very forceful in what he says when he. When he disagrees with somebody. Now, he's not responding to tweets all the time, but when he sends something out, it's usually a very measured response, but pointed to it. So, again, I think we need to take those people as our models on these things and just realize, you know, again, why are you trying to. Why are you saying this? How are you saying it? Maybe show it to somebody else. Before you send it, because the words that you're using there or the emojis that you're using there, I can't keep up with all the emojis. But you want to do that because, you know, I'm a person who gets wrapped up in words a lot. So you use a certain word that's going to set me off or it's going to, you know, I will say, well, maybe we should use this word instead of that word. And again, a lot of this just has to do with awareness. And we're a culture now that is not very aware of ourselves because we're so geared on the instantaneous response, the emotional response to things. And that's probably about the last place you want to go, especially with hot button issues. [00:47:27] Speaker A: Yeah, I will say, you know, I've been online for many years. Actually, I've probably been online more than most of the people I interact with. I've been online seriously for over 30 years now. And because I was, I was with a dot com company in your late 90s, I had emails early as the early 90s. So I've been around a long time. And I would say there are literally hundreds of emails, texts, tweets and stuff that I've written that I've deleted before I sent them before I sent them because I realized, oh, I can't do that. And sometimes this is like a practical thing for me. Sometimes I will even write it on purpose, knowing I'm not going to send it because I need to kind of just get it out of my system. And it helps me to just say that something that I know I'm not going to send. The key is don't actually hit the send button though. And you know, just like, because I'm frustrated, I'm angry or whatever. And I found doing that and then deleting it does kind of, you know, lower the temperature a bit. And then sometimes I'll just not even bother responding ever. But sometimes I will go back and then I'll have a more measured, okay, let me actually have a response that, that hopefully is more charitable, more courteous towards the person, you know. And so I think there's a lot, and I think there's so many things we have to do practically, like personally, myself, as far as, like, if you're, excuse me, if you're sitting there at like 11 o' clock at night just looking at your screen and that's what you've been spending last hour doing, you're not going to probably be in the proper frame of Mind to say the charitable things you're. And let's be honest, the algorithms are specifically designed to get you angry, to, to, to get you emotional. They want you to respond in anger. They want you to respond uncourteously or discourse, whatever the word is. They. And literally, they will pay you to do that because your engagement will go up. You'll, you know, X, for example, will do that. And so I do think it. There's a lot of. And I, like, I have, I have brought back my. A lot of my social media engagement over the past few months, like, radically, like, I'm on way less than I used to be because I kind of realized I couldn't win the game. Like, I was right. I could win in the sense of I was getting a lot more followers, I was getting paid by X, you know, so, yeah, but I wasn't, you know, winning the more important game, which was, okay, let's, let's try to treat people with a little bit better respect, things like that. So, yeah, I, I think if somebody came to me say, I don't think it's possible to be courteous online because the way it's designed, it's on social media, sign, I would be the say, okay, I respect that opinion. You might be right. [00:50:08] Speaker B: Well, yeah, there are a couple things that come to mind there. One is, you know, I remember, okay, on Crisis, you used to post all the comments. [00:50:16] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:50:16] Speaker B: First an article, and you stopped that. And I'm glad you did because it got to the point where, boy, you'd write something and you'd see these comments, and the more you scroll down on those comments, they weren't even talking about the article at some point. They were just going back and forth with that, you know. [00:50:32] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:50:34] Speaker B: And then the second thing is, I remember a story about Abraham Lincoln after the Battle of the Gettysburg where, okay, Meade had defeated General Lee, Lee was retreating over the Potomac, and Meade did not follow up on that. And Lincoln got really upset with that because he thought, boy, there was the chance to win the war. You had the guy on retreat, you just won the battle. And he wrote a blistering letter to Meade, which he never sent. It was found later after he died. And the thought was, he did just what she said. You know, I see I tend to write out things by hand, even sometimes with emails, because I get so persnickety about words. But the point was, you know, he wrote this letter saying, you had him in the hand. We could have won the war. This could have been all over with. Then maybe he Stopped and thought, you know, but I wasn't there. I didn't see these guys being killed. I wasn't in the heat of the battle. So he shelved it and what have you. So, yes, you can be courteous, island, but maybe it does, you know, that send button is a dangerous thing. I mean, maybe we should put red tape over it or something like that, or just write out the email. And I think we all know, you know, you made that point about being tired. I mean, one of the best definitions of Satan I ever heard was he comes along when I'm very tired and prompt something very reasonable that I know I shouldn't do. I mean, when you, when you're tired, don't. Don't send anything. Right, Right. Yeah. [00:52:02] Speaker A: Okay. If. So, if people are still watching it, you know, after the, you know, near the end here, I figure I can say this because this is going to be the controversial take. You don't have to agree with me or disagree with me. It's fine. But I personally think when it comes to our side, so to speak, conservatives, I think this is one area where President Trump has been a big negative, a net negative on this. I just think that the way he. I'm not, and I know people say he's got to be a fighter, he's gotta, you know, he's gotta, you know, defend it. You know, he's getting attacked and all this stuff. I'm not disagreeing with that. I'm not saying he hasn't been treated ridiculously unfairly at so many times. I mean, he's literally getting shot at. I mean, it's hard to, you know, be worse than that as far as uncourteousness. [00:52:45] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:52:45] Speaker A: So I'm not, I'm not saying any of that isn't true, but I think if we're being honest, we have to admit that he says things that just shouldn't be said. And the reason I care about it is because then I see Catholics who are, you know, conservative, orthodox, traditional Catholics who then imitate that methodology when they're dealing with people. And, you know, because Trump doesn't claim to be a Catholic, obviously he's not Catholic or even a, some practicing Christian, anything like that. And so. But I think when we take that on, because it's one of our side doing it. And so I think when we take that on, I think it can be a real, A real harm to, you know, spreading the gospel and being charitable with people. So I, I throw that out there as kind of a bomb at the end of the of the interview. [00:53:32] Speaker B: But no, I, I totally agree. I mean, in fact, I wrote something about this for Crisis a while ago. But, you know, Ronald Reagan was very passionate about what he believed, but I think he was also very courteous. At the same time. You had Dr. Martin Luther King, for example, you know, talk about getting shot at, but he was also very passionate about what he believed. But he was very courteous. And there are issues with his private life or whatever, but because of the way those men handled situations, their causes went a lot further. And I do think, and maybe I don't want to get a lot of hate mail or something like that. I do think President Trump has hurt himself a lot with this, because maybe your stand on the issues are right. And I'm not saying I agree with his stand on all the issues, but the way you're going about it is really, frankly, it's lowering your dignity and you're hurting that. And you, yes, you are giving. Setting a very bad example, because it doesn't win people. It just makes people angrier. I mean, you can. You can make your points without calling people names and using expletives and being discourteous, and you can show respect for the. Certainly the office of the Pope got me riled up there a lot with that. [00:54:54] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:54:55] Speaker B: But, yeah, I mean, he, God bless him, I mean, he has a long way to go on things, but it's just. Yeah, I mean, that was one of the main points I had about certain people on the other side, was that they were just firing off with names and calling names. And I, you know, here's the guy on, quote, unquote, my side doing the same thing. And it's like, oh, boy, you know, now we're back in kindergarten saying, my dad can beat up your dad, you know. [00:55:22] Speaker A: Right, right. [00:55:23] Speaker B: It doesn't help. And I really wish someone would, frankly take the Twitter account away from him or at least edit it once in a while. [00:55:32] Speaker A: Yeah. And it is something where I think that's the fallacy is that to be forceful and to be. And to be uncompromising in your position, you have to be, frankly, a jerk. And I just don't think that is true. I think you can be very forceful and really have a, you know, make it very clear what you believe, and you can argue. Argue in the sense of, like, really debate with people in a very strong way without the falling into the. The uncharitableness and. And just the name calling, things like that. So. Okay, last question I want to ask you, though, is just kind of to wrap it up, what I think some people might say, you know, this, this world and even the church seems to be going to hell in the hand basket. Aren't there more important things to talk about than, you know, how you, you know, you should shake hands with people and, and be polite and things like that. So what would you say in response to that? People say, you know, this just isn't really important compared to the big issues of. Of the day. [00:56:37] Speaker B: Well, two things. One is, I mean, you just wrote a column about this on Crisis Today, about this whole thing. Where else are we going to start? I mean, you have to start small. I mean, yeah, I would love it if. Frankly, sometimes I would love it if we had sort of a real revolution and kind of did a lot of throwing people out the window. But, you know, I, I cannot. I mean, don't get me wrong here, because I'm very involved in the pro life movement. My wife does Gabriel projects and all this kind of thing. I am so forceful on that. But I cannot rewrite the legislature right now, rewrite the legislation. I can't overturn the Supreme. Well, you know, do it. Have the Supreme Court do what I want. What can I do right here and now? What I can do right here and now is try to treat other people that I meet every day with courtesy. I can certainly pray for those issues. I can get involved in political movements, I can get involved in religious movements, but. And maybe I shouldn't even put the word but in there. It has to start somewhere, and it's not going to the place. I think where it has to start is how we treat each other every day. Because if it doesn't start there, then when we get into those big issues, we're going to fall off the rails. You know, we're going to. Maybe we get our quote, unquote, ideal candidate up there and the White House or on the bench or something. But, you know, laws really mean. Don't get me wrong, in a way, they really don't mean a lot because if people aren't treating each other with respect, I mean, I, I can make a law right now that whatever bans. Bans abortion, okay? But if we're still all, you know, shouting expletive at each other or something like that, that law probably won't have a whole lot of effect because people are just gonna say, well, you're a jerk. I don't need to obey that law. What's. What have you. I mean, again, I just. I just think it's a situation where sometimes we Try to excuse our rude behavior because we think it doesn't matter, but it really does because again, I look at a person like Mother Teresa. How much influence did she have in terms of political influence or major church movements? Not a whole lot. But how many lives did she change because of who she was? Because of her simple treatment of the person that was right there? You know, same thing with our Lord. Or you can just talk about so many saints that did it that way too. I mean, yes, we do need those. We do need the big picture. We do need to fight on the political level. We do need to get involved in our, our movements. But you know, when I go to confession, you know, I'm not confessing, oh, the state legislature passed this law. I'm confessing what I did to this person that I was rude to on the street. Because at the end of the day, that's where I get judged. [00:59:47] Speaker A: Yeah, it's a good point. Because if you're out there and you're, and you're doing all, you know, some activist who has great success in the political realm, but you treat your wife and kids like crap and you treat the people around you like crap, guess what's going to happen at your judgment, it's not going to go well for you. And also what will happen, also what happens is practically, and that's what matters the most. But practically speaking too, people start to find out about that. [01:00:12] Speaker B: Right. [01:00:12] Speaker A: And it really undermines your your because we see this all the time where people who put themselves out as Christian or Catholic or something like that, and then you find out they're their lives are just, you know, they're just terrible people. [01:00:23] Speaker B: Right. [01:00:24] Speaker A: You know, so it really does have an impact. So, yeah, I, I, I really, you know, that article that published this week, you know, by me, are disintegrating society. It's funny because reading your book influenced that, but I didn't realize it till afterwards, like, because some things had happened and I was thinking about and I read your book and so like just, you know how your brain works sometimes where things just kind of come together. You're not even sure where they're coming from. But it was funny because Peter Kwasnski wrote to me and said he really liked the article and he said, oh, you should read this, you should read this book by Robert Grieving about, about Positive Curse. I said, well, I said. He goes, because what you're saying there at the end is kind of really agrees with that. And I realized, oh, wait a minute, that's where I got it from was like, I probably that. That seeped into my brain. So I apologize. I didn't give you explicit credit in the article because. Yeah. So I said, but I'm going to talk to him. So we'll at least promote it on the podcast. It was kind of funny that that seeped in, but I do think it's. Yeah. So I just want to encourage people. Apostolate of courtesy. Robert Grieving, and I will put a link to it in the show notes. It's from Catholic Answers and Catholic Answers. I mean, they are. This is something they're excellent on, is that they've been doing this for years and their whole apostolate is arguing with people. Yet somehow, if you think of, think of all of them. Think of Jimmy Akin. [01:01:45] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:01:45] Speaker A: You know, all these different people. Are any of. Have you seen any of them, like, lose their temper during an ARG debate? Treat somebody, you know, uncharitably? So you might even disagree with some of the things they say about this. That's fine. Nobody's saying you have to agree with every single argument they've ever made. But I don't. I can't think of an example from Carl Keating until today. I can't think of an example of one Catholic Answers apologist who doesn't at least practice courtesy towards them. And they've been a very successful apostolate. I mean, they've brought a lot of people into the church, and so I don't think that's a coincidence. [01:02:19] Speaker B: No, I agree. I was just, I was just thinking of Jimmy Yankee myself. I love listening to him because, boy, you can throw out a hand grenade to him and he would just pick it up and, well, let's talk about that. And flatline it the whole line through the whole way through. And yeah, they're all, they're all great people there. So, yeah, shout out to them. [01:02:36] Speaker A: Absolutely, absolutely. So, okay, well, let's wrap it up here, but thank you very much for coming on the program. And like I said, I'll put a link to it. Apostle of courtesy. I'm gonna have my kids read it as well, because I think it's good for them just to know these things. I want to make sure that I'm doing my job as a, as a father. Now, I assume I usually ask all my guests, like, where can people find you online? But I assume you don't have a major online presence based upon, upon our conversation. [01:03:01] Speaker B: No, I, I don't. I'm not. Again, I'm technologically incompetent and I just have too much to do with. Without getting involved with that. [01:03:10] Speaker A: Well, I'll put a link to the book, and I'll also put a link to your author page at Crisis magazine, because you do write for us regularly, and they're great. So great. [01:03:16] Speaker B: All right. Thank you so much. [01:03:18] Speaker A: Okay, thank you. And until next time, everybody. God love you, [01:03:28] Speaker B: Sam.