Why the Latin Novus Ordo Isn't Enough

[00:00:12] Recently, the Diocese of Knoxville decided to replace the traditional Latin Mass with a traditionalized Novus Ordo Mass. [00:00:19] Should traditional Catholics be satisfied with that change? That's what we're going to talk about today on Crisis Point. Hello, I'm Eric Simmons, your host editor chief of Crisis magazine. [00:00:28] As always, I ask you to smash that like button. Subscribe to the channel. [00:00:33] Tell everybody you know walk up to strangers in the street and say, are you listening to Crisis Point? You really should, you should follow them, you should subscribe. You should like their channel, blah, blah, blah. I know you'll do it. Thank you. Also, you can follow our email newsletter. Hard for me to say. Just go to crisis magazine.com, put in your email address and we'll send you our opinion articles every morning, usually to a day. [00:00:59] Also, before I really get started here with the point of this podcast, I want to put in a little plug for my upcoming book. It's a science fiction novel called Shard of Eden. [00:01:08] If you are a fan of science fiction, but you're tired of the wokeness, the anti Catholicism found in a lot of science fiction. I mean, there was just a trailer for the latest Star Trek show and it just looks God awful. It looks, it looks terrible. And that's what a lot of science fiction is these days. If you're tired of that, then I would encourage you to order my book. You can pre order it right now. Shardofeden.com you put that up on the screen real quick shardofeden.com and you can pre order the book right now. [00:01:38] And the key is it's not just, it's not just that it's not woke, it's not anti Catholic. I tried to write a good story and I'll be Honest, I wasn't 100 sure if I could do this. [00:01:49] Everybody likes to think they can write a book. Everybody a novel. I mean, I've written books before, non fictional books, but I haven't written a fictional book before. And so I was a little nervous. But I've had a number of people read it already, Beta readers, and they've all said it's very well written, they really like the story. [00:02:06] Probably the best endorsement I have of the book is one of my adult daughters. She read it and when she, I, when she, she said to me, after she read, she goes, dad, it's actually good. [00:02:21] And she had a complete shocked voice, which if you have daughters, and especially adult daughters or even teenage daughters, you know what that's like. The last person on earth who's going to probably give me credit for anything is probably my daughters, they like to keep me honest, which is very good for me. Good for my humility. But she liked it. So anyway, I encourage you go to shardofeden.com I have a link in the show notes and you can pre order that book. It will be coming out very, very soon and I'll ship it to you if you pre order. I'll sign it and ship it to you as soon as I get it. Okay, so let's talk about what we're going to talk about today, which is it was announced that the Diocese of Knoxville, Tennessee, they are shutting down all the traditional Masses there. To my knowledge, I believe they only have diocesan ones. Like they don't have a fraternity, St. Peter and Sue, Christ the K. [00:03:10] And they're shutting them all down. [00:03:12] And this has happened now in too many places where diocese have greatly restricted like in Charlotte, Detroit or now shutting down. And I just want, before we even get into the topic of today, I just want to note that's evil. [00:03:26] I mean, I don't even know the way to say it. You're taking a rite of the church that has raised up countless saints, been the patrimony of our church for know, over a thousand years, and you're just saying, no, we're not going to have this anymore. [00:03:42] It's just, it's awful. And I also want to note that please pray for our brothers and sisters in the Diocese of Knoxville. I have a few friends down there who attend the traditional Mass and they're just, you know, gut punched. I mean, this is awful. I can imagine what it would be like if that happened to me. [00:03:59] And so really pray and fast for them. Obviously pray for the bishop there, Beckman, I believe his last name is Bishop Beckman in Knoxville, that he might change his decision here. [00:04:09] Now, what's a little bit unique about this one, as opposed to maybe Charlotte or Detroit and other places, is that they're making a big deal in Knoxville about the fact that, yes, we're transitioning from the traditional Latin Mass to the Novus Ordo, but we're going to keep the kind of traditional trappings at the Novus Ordo. One of the letters that was posted online reads is from one of the pastors of the churches that's doing this says as part of this transition, Mass will continue, will begin to be celebrated using the missile Urmanum, basically the new missal. [00:04:45] Despite this change acting like it's not that big a deal, Mass will continue to include traditional elements that do not conflict with the missile. [00:04:54] Therefore, Mass will continue to be offered ad orientum. The altar arrangement will remain the same. [00:05:02] We will continue to make use of the communion rail. [00:05:05] Gregorian chant will retain its proper place in the liturgy. The Mass will continue to be offered in Latin, and there will be incense along with other traditional elements. So they're going to keep adorantum, keep the altar rail, keep Gregorian chant, keep Latin and keep incense. [00:05:22] And so obviously, that's better than a clown Mass. [00:05:26] That's better than the vast majority of Novus Ordos out there. I mean, we. I think everybody would agree with that. Who has any traditional bone in their body would agree that that's so much better than what you'd find normally if you just went to a random Catholic church in America. [00:05:41] And in fact, I attended a Mass very much like this. It basically was like this for a few years. I know exactly what this is like. And like I said, it's very much, so much better than your typical Novus order that you're going to find at the average, you know, Saint Suburbia. [00:05:58] Also, this seems to tie in a little bit with what Pope Leo said in an interview recently. [00:06:03] He is saying, you can say Mass in Latin right now. If it's the Vatican ii, right? There's no problem. Now, of course, there are problems in most diocese if you do that. But the point is, it kind of was. I think the Pope was signaling maybe, hey, it's okay to celebrate, have lots of these traditional elements in the Novus Ordo. There's no problem if you do that. And it seems like that's kind of what they're moving towards in Knoxville. [00:06:27] However, if you've been online, you've seen that many traditional Catholics, including myself, are not satisfied because, you know, we're a bunch of rad trads who are angry about everything. We're never satisfied by anything. [00:06:40] But let's actually talk about why is it that. That we don't believe the Latin Novus Orda, the traditionalized Novus Orda, so to speak, is enough, that, no, we want the traditional Latin Mass. We don't want the traditional Novus Ordina. It's not just a matter of what we want. We believe that traditional Latin Mass is best for the church, is the best for the sanctity of souls. It's the best to glorify God, all these things. [00:07:06] So I want to kind of go through that in the podcast today. Why is it that we're. We're cranky about this and about everything else? Why is it that we're Cranky about the fact that, no, we're not satisfied that you put all the smells and bells with the Novus Ordo and say, you, you need to like this first a few notes before I kind of get into some of these specifics. [00:07:29] I. I feel like I have to say this every time, but I'm gonna, you know, maybe I'm just repeating myself. Maybe I don't have to. I'm going to say it again. [00:07:36] Nothing I say here is a reflection or a commentary on the sanctity of people who attend the Novus Ordo versus people who attend the Traditional Latin Mass. [00:07:47] I know some very, very holy people who exclusively attend the Novus Ordo. I know some not so holy people who attend the Traditional Latin Mass. Not saying, like, you know, if you attend Novus Ordo, you're not really Catholic or anything like that. Obviously. I'm also not saying that the Novus Ordo is invalid. I don't think it is. And it's kind of. It's stupid if you think it is. [00:08:08] So I don't think that either. Also, by the way, the whole terms thing is, like, what do we call it? The Novus Ordo. People get upset about that. I don't know why. It's a very good description. The Vatican ii, right, Is what Pope Leo called it. I could call it that. I don't care, really. But there's no offense intended in whatever I call it. [00:08:26] Okay. So second thing is, I do think we have to recognize there's a lot of confusion out here, out there in Catholic land. [00:08:37] A lot of people, honest, a lot of Catholics, honestly, believe that the Novus Ordo is essentially the same as the Traditional Latin Mass, except for it's not in Latin. [00:08:48] Maybe a couple other ceremonials. [00:08:50] I mean, honestly, if you polled, I think this would be less true than it was 10 years ago. [00:08:56] But if you polled the average Catholic in the pew who just attends Novus Ordo has no experience themselves as a traditional at Mass, they would probably guess that traditional at Mass was essentially the Novus Ordo, what they attend, but in Latin and maybe a few other minor things. Obviously that's not true. We're going to explain a little bit in this podcast why it's not true. [00:09:18] Another thing I want to note before I kind of talk about the, you know, why we're not satisfied with a la. With a traditionalized Novus Ordo. [00:09:27] How something's implemented does matter. [00:09:29] Like, I have actually in the past been positive about parishes that offer a more traditional Novus Ordo. I Think that's a good thing? I don't think that's a bad thing. [00:09:41] In fact, I just attended one last week. [00:09:45] I don't think that's a bad thing. However, there is a difference between a parish moving from kind of your typical Novus Ordo to a traditionalized Novus Ordo and a parish being forced to move, stop celebrating the traditional Mass and. And trans. And start celebrating instead with the traditionalized Novus order. There's a big difference between those two things. So I'm not saying that, like, the traditionalized Novus Ordo is worse than the normal Novus Ordo or any parish that celebrates a traditionalized Novus Ordo that's bad or anything like that. I'm simply saying that in this case, the transition is being forced to go from the traditional Mass back to, so to speak, or forward. I don't know how you'd say it, to a traditionalized Novus Ordo. So I think that's. That's another thing to note. [00:10:39] I also want to note a argument you always hear. In fact, one of the letters from a pastor said this. It said the Eucharist is no less Jesus in the 2002 missile than the 1962 missile. I'm not sure why 2002, to be honest. I didn't think that was the year the current missile came out. But whatever I thought was like 2011. Anyway. [00:11:01] He's talking about the Vatican II, right. Versus traditional at mass, says the Eucharist is no less Jesus in either one. [00:11:09] Okay, thank you for bringing up a point that is no relevancy to our discussion. [00:11:14] We're not arguing that it's a different Jesus or a lesser Jesus that's coming to the Novus Ordo. [00:11:23] That's not been the argument. Yeah, I know there's some fringe people on the Internet who might say it's invalid, whatever, but the bulk of traditional critics of the Novus Ordo are admitting it's valid. If you admit it's valid, you admit it's a full Jesus. We're not saying, like, half of Jesus comes, like, only his arm or his leg or something like that. No, the full Jesus comes in the Novus Ordo. Nobody's debating that. [00:11:47] But when you say that, I don't think you're really thinking it out. Like when this priest said this, that the Eucharist is no less Jesus in the 2002 missile than 1962. I don't think you're really thinking it out. For example, you could have a valid wedding that takes place During a clown Mass or, you know, just done very slipshod and very, you know, no care about, people are just dressed in, you know, a T shirt and jeans and they have a valid, let's say it's a valid wedding. You could do that. But why would you want to do that? Everybody I know who gets married, all the Catholics, they want a very nice wedding. They want the best. [00:12:25] And so if they want to give their themselves the best in their wedding or their spouse the best in their wedding, why wouldn't we want to give Jesus the best when we celebrate Mass every time? [00:12:37] We're not saying, like in the case of the wedding, we're not saying the wedding is now invalid. Assuming it follows it is valid. Just because everybody dressed up in had jeans or shorts and it was like a clown Mass or some very irreverent Mass. [00:12:54] If it's all valid, it's still valid. The wedding's not invalid. But it's not really the point, is it? [00:13:01] It's like when somebody asks, you know, how's your marriage? Well, it's valid. [00:13:05] I mean, if you answered that, I'd be worried about your marriage. [00:13:11] And so kind of saying, well, the new Mass is still valid, still the same Jesus. I think there's, you know, it's a poor way to look at it. [00:13:21] Also, it's important to note that all the ceremonials that surround the celebration of the Eucharist, they matter because they help with our subjective reception of the objective graces that are being poured down during the Mass. [00:13:39] So remember, there's two points during a Mass. There's two like aspects happening here. During any sacrament, there is the objective nature of what's happening. Yes, Jesus is really coming. [00:13:51] The bread and the wine are really being transformed into the body, blood, soul and divinity of Jesus Christ. That's objectively happening as long as it's valid Mass. [00:14:00] However, the graces we receive, that's more dependent upon a subjective nature. [00:14:07] Because if you're distracted, if you're, if you're a state of mortal sin, obviously, but if you're distracted, if you're not really open to them, then that does matter. It does affect how you receive it. So having all these ceremonials helps us to draw closer to Christ and receive those graces he wants. [00:14:29] And also just back to the wedding analogy, the subjective what we can do around it to give glory to God, we want to give him our. [00:14:40] If you give your parents whom you love, you thought into it, you do what you can to get exactly what they want. Wrap it nice, you do all things because you love them. [00:14:54] You don't just say, here's five bucks, dad, Merry Christmas. [00:15:00] If you did that, you're not really showing you're demonstrating your love very much, are you? [00:15:06] And so likewise, when we celebrate the Mass, it's not just a matter of okay, the Eucharist is no less Jesus. It's like, okay, what am I giving to God? Am I giving him the glory, everything he deserves? Am I giving him everything or not? [00:15:19] So I just don't think that argument works very well. [00:15:23] But ultimately, it's not just about like throwing some Latin in there, making ad orientum, which is great. I honestly think if you made every Novus Ordo, Mass ad Orientum, that would have a dramatic effect on the church. Dramatic. The biggest effect any one change could make would be that one. So you do all these things. It's nice. But ultimately, the Novus Ordo, the right of the Novus Ordo and the right of the Tradition at Mass, they are very different. [00:15:53] Yes, they have the same basics. Same basics, but they're very different in so many ways. I would encourage you to watch Mass of the Ages, which, by the way, is coming out on a dvd. All three. All three episodes of Mass of the Ages is on. [00:16:09] It's going to be on dvd. It's coming out soon or something that just go to massive Ages website and you'll see. [00:16:15] Watch part two. That's the second of the three. That's the one that goes into the differences between the two. And it really shows it very clearly that they're fundamentally different. Also, I'd recommend watching Peter Kwasneski's interview with Matt Fradd on Pints with Aquinas. I think about a week or two ago. It's been a couple weeks, I think now, where about the Latin Mass where Peter goes in depth, a lot of the differences as well. And so I'd really highly recommend you watch. Watch that as well. But let me just give it a couple examples of the differences between the traditional Latin Mass and a traditionalized Novus Order. Now, we're assuming here the best possible Novus Order you could. You could celebrate. So everything they said in here, we're assuming all the best. [00:16:58] Well, one example is there's no, no prayers at the foot of the altar. The prayers at the foot of the altar, if you don't know what that is, if you don't attend tlm, honestly, it's one of the most beautiful aspects of traditional Mass. It's probably my favorite. It's at the beginning of Mass before the priest ascends the steps up to the altar. This is, you know, you're thinking of churches where they would actually have steps up to the altar. [00:17:22] He says these prayers at the foot of the altar, and it's Psalm 42. And it really is. The purpose of it is for the priest to acknowledge his sinfulness, his need for mercy before he ascends and offers the sacrifice of the Mass before he ascends to the altar. He's acknowledging, I'm not worthy of. To ascend to the altar. And so I am just going to. I'm going to beg forgiveness instead. [00:17:52] And so there is nothing like that in the Novus ordeal. I know there's the confiteor, but the Latin Mass is confederate. That's a little bit different as well. [00:18:02] You know, it has a confession of sins, but it's just a very generic. Like, everybody just says, you know, I'm sorry for my sins, which is good. [00:18:09] But the prayers that fill the altar are so powerful because they really represent the priest and not the people in this case, but the priest saying, listen, I'm about to do something I know I am not worthy to do, which is to celebrate the holy sacrifice, to offer the holy sacrifice of the Mass, to act in Persona Christie. I'm not worthy of it. I'm a human being, sinful human being. So I'm begging your mercy, God. It's just a beautiful aspect that just doesn't exist in the sort. It was taken away completely. [00:18:37] Likewise that's at the beginning of Mass. Likewise at the ending, at the inning. The. I've been watching too much baseball lately. The ending of the Mass, the Last gospel, John 1:1 through, I think, 17. [00:18:50] In the beginning was a word, and word with God, and word was God. [00:18:54] That reading at the end of every Mass. It's a very beautiful aspect of the traditional Mass. It's gone in Novus Ordo, but it really is kind of this idea of the Word just became flesh in a sense. The Word just became bread and wine. I mean, bread and wine, I should say, were transformed into the Word, and we received it and we go out. It's a beautiful way to end Mass. That's gone in Novus Ordo. [00:19:17] Also, like the prayer where you are. I'm going to read a prayer to you where. When the priest washes his hands, Lavabo, I think it's pronounced, where he washes his hands before, you know, the Eucharistic prayers in the new. He says, lord, wash away my iniquity. Cleanse me from My sin. [00:19:38] And that's basically it in the old. Here's what HE prays. I will wash my hands among the innocent and will cleanse Compass thine altar, O Lord, that I may hear the voice of praise and tell of all thy wondrous works. I have loved, O Lord, the beauty of thy house and the place where thy glory dwelleth. Take not away my soul, O God, with the wicked, nor my life with men of blood in whose hands are iniquities. Their right hand is filled with gifts. But as for me, I have walked in my innocence. Redeem me and have mercy on me. My foot has stood, hath stood in the right way in the churches. I will bless thee, O Lord. Glory be the Father and to the Son. The Holy Ghost, as it was in the beginning, is now ever shall be world without an amen. That's what they say. That's what the priest says when he's washing his hands. [00:20:23] If you've ever studied the prayers of the Latin traditional Mass, they are chock full of scriptural references. They're basically taking prayers from the Psalms and other places in Scripture and just inserting them here. [00:20:36] And so, like, these type of differences between the two are very simple, just very direct, kind of easy, generic prayer in the Novus Ordo, whereas in the traditional Latin rite, it's a very deep, meditative scriptural prayer. [00:20:50] There's fundamental differences between the two. There really are. It doesn't invalidate the Novus Ordo, but yet why do we want to just remove all. Why. Why did we want to remove all this language? This beautiful language had been used for centuries, for over a thousand years. Why do we just say, no, modern man doesn't need this anymore? I think one thing we've noticed is modern man desperately needs this. That was the whole thing in the 60s. The reason they made these changes were we need to adapt the Mass to modern men. They won't. They don't really accept all this mysticism and all this, you know, like. Like highfalutin prayers and all this stuff. But the fact is, that was a lie. That was a lie told to the Church, told that church leaders bought. I should say they didn't invent it. That's what the modern world was saying, but it wasn't true. We desperately need that. And that's why so many young people today are flocking to more traditional expressions of religion, because they know how much we need. We don't need this utilitarian. Let's try to get these prayers as short as possible and as Basic as possible. No, let's have some overflowing language. Let's have some abundance in our prayers. [00:22:01] And that's what you find in the Churchillant Mass that you don't find Novus Ordo most of the time. [00:22:06] Also, of course, a lot of the sacrificial nature, the sacrificial language is stripped from the Novus Ordo. [00:22:15] It much more leans towards prayers that make it seem more like a meal than a sacrifice. But of course this, the Mass is the ultimate sacrifice. It's the representation of the holy sacrifice on Calvary, of Jesus Christ on Calvary. [00:22:31] And a lot of that language just got removed. But you see it chock full in the traditional Latin Mass. [00:22:37] And so we see that there's a real difference between them. [00:22:42] But then also I would just say the whole ethos of the traditional at Mass versus Novus Orda is very different. If anybody's attended both of them for any amount of time, you know this. I attended the Novus Ordo exclusively for the first. [00:22:58] How many years was that? 211. 18 years as a Catholic. And I continue to attend it mostly during daily Mass for another five years or so. [00:23:11] I have attended traditional at mass mostly almost every Sunday for 12 years now. I think it is something like that. [00:23:21] And so what we see. So I've experienced both, I know very deeply, not just like one off. I've gone to one no sword. I've gone to one Thriller slant master like that. I've gone to both for over a decade. [00:23:33] That's the advantage by the way, being old, young people is I can actually have some experience in some of these matters. And it's just so obvious when you attend both of them for a long period of time that the ethos, the whole like everything surrounding is very different. [00:23:50] The Novus Ordo is very much set up where the focus is, frankly the priest. And this is because the optionitis, all the options. You go into the. You go into a Novus Ordo wondering which priest am I going to have and how's he going to say? If you're traveling, you attend a random parish, you're like, I wonder what this is going to be like. I really don't know. [00:24:10] It could be super goofy, super irreverent, it could be very nice. But who knows? All depends on who the priest is, even in your own parish. We all know this happens where a parish has multiple priests and you kind of wish for a certain priest to be the one who celebrates Mass because he says it more reverently, maybe a little bit better than the other one. [00:24:29] So the focus is very much. [00:24:31] The focus of the liturgy is very much on the priest, not on God. [00:24:34] Whereas when you go to a traditional Mass, it's kind of boringly repetitive. That's a good thing. What I mean by that is you. If you. I've gone to Jerusalem Masses at a lot of different parishes around the country, and yeah, there's a little. Little differences on the edges, but they're all fundamentally the same. They're very similar. I know what I'm getting, and that's a good thing. When it comes to the liturgy, you want to know what you're getting. You don't want surprises, because you want to just be focused on glorifying God and on sanctifying your soul. [00:25:06] And so really, so much about it is. Is different between the two. And so that's why your average traditionalist who attends the TLM isn't going to be like, oh, you gave me my Latin, you gave me my incense, you gave me my ad orientum, you gave me my, you know, Gregorian chan. Okay, that's all I wanted. That's not what we wanted. [00:25:30] I would. In fact, this has been said by others before, and I've said it, too. I would bet you if you gave the option between a traditional at Mass in the vernacular or a Novus Ordo in Latin, I guarantee 99 out of 100, if not all hundred, TLM traditional Catholics would choose the traditional Latin Mass in the vernacular, the tradition, the Trinity Rite in the vernacular. They'd pick that every day because it's not about the Latin. I'm not saying Latin isn't important on some level, but I am saying on the hierarchy things. It's probably the least important or at least one of the least important aspects of the traditional Latin Mass. What makes it different? It's not the difference in language. The thing that most Catholics assume is the big difference between the two is actually the least significant difference between the two. [00:26:19] I'll say that again. [00:26:21] The thing that is considered the biggest difference by people like the average Catholic between the Nosource and traditional at Mass is actually probably the least significant difference between the two, and that is the use of the Latin language. [00:26:36] And so really, it's not a matter of, okay, we got our smells and bells, we got the externals. This is something that often you hear accused of accusations against people who attend the tlm. Oh, they're just. They just have a preference for it because they like the aesthetic of it. They like the way it sounds, they like the way you know, it smells and. Oh, that. That's just, you know, they're. They're like, you know, proper Englishmen or something who want something, a proper liturgy or something like that. That's not it. That's not it. [00:27:09] It's just a fundamentally different ethos with vastly different prayers. [00:27:14] And it really does change your whole outlook of God, of how to worship him, how to receive the Eucharist. All those things change in the traditional Latin Mass. And honestly, we've been beating this drum for a long time. I've been beating this drum for a long time. But I know if you haven't actually tinned a traditional Mass, you don't get it. If you're watching this right now and you've never tinned or you've only tended once or twice, you don't get what I'm saying. In fact, you're probably annoyed with what I'm saying. You're like, boy, you're really demeaning the Novus Ordo. You really don't like it, do you? Or anything like that. Which is not what I'm saying at all. [00:27:47] It's. You have to experience it over a period of time. I think Peter K. On Matt Frad show said you got experience for like three months. Give it three months every Sunday for three months. And you, you, you. It starts to click and you like, oh, oh, oh, I get it. Actually, that's one of the big differences between the old right and the new right and everything. The way Catholics did things in the old days versus the new days is this idea of, like, you just learn things by telling them and then they know it. Whereas that's the new way. In the old way, it was like you experience them. And that's kind of what I'm saying here. Me just telling you on this podcast isn't really going to cut it. Peter K. Saying it on his. On that fraz podcast isn't enough. Watching even Mass of the Ages Volume 2, which is probably the best thing to do, that's not going to really do it. You have to go to the traditional at Mass. Traditional at Mass for at least a few months before it will click you like, oh, now I see what Eric's saying. [00:28:43] Now I see what Taylor Marshall is saying. Now I see what Peter Kwesnaski is saying. Now I see what the Massey Ages meant. [00:28:48] Oh, I get it now. [00:28:50] So it is a bit frustrating, to be honest, because I know people who are watching this, listening to this, who haven't experienced it, don't really fully get it, and you know, I can't do anything about that. [00:29:01] One last thing I wanted to talk about when it comes to this action by Knoxville, the Bishop of Knoxville, is that the push for this was that this is to. [00:29:16] So we might have unity. We might have unity in the church. In fact, from one letter, the pastor said the church's movement is towards a unity of faith expressed in one Roman Missal. In this unity, we will no longer be divided by differing calendars of feast. [00:29:33] Our parish will celebrate together as one household of faith. [00:29:37] So basically, what they're saying is this is going to bring about unity. [00:29:41] Of course, what they're really saying is we're demanding liturgical uniformity, something that has never existed in the history of the church, except for maybe at Pentecost. [00:29:52] Soon after that, there wasn't liturgical uniformity. If you look at the history of the liturgy, you see there's a lot of differences in how the liturgies were celebrated. There's always a common commonality between them, but the Church never imposed a strict uniformity like it's trying to do here. [00:30:11] And in fact, I would argue that one of the issue. [00:30:14] Look at, for example, how Pope Pius V, when he instituted the Trinity, we call the Trinity Mass after Vatican. I'm sorry, after Trent Council of Trenton, I think it was 1571, something like that. [00:30:30] Everybody looks at that as a. Okay, he made one liturgy for the whole church. It's actually not what he did. Now. He did make it a lot less than there were, but he said any liturgy that's over 200 years old, they can keep doing what they're doing. So Dominican Rite and other rites, they're allowed to keep doing their liturgy even though it's different. [00:30:47] Like the Dominican Rite still exists today. I went to one by a year or so ago, and it's not the same as traditional Ms. It's a lot like it. It's more like that than it is like the Nosordo, but it's different. Liturgical uniformity simply has never existed because all you have to do is look to the East. They have not only a very different liturgy, they have a different calendar. Their calendar is not the same as ours, and it hasn't been for a very long time. Are we not united with Eastern Catholics? Are Eastern Catholics not fully Catholic in the minds of these bishops? Because they're not liturgically uniform with us? They. That's nonsense. Like, that's one of the best things about Vatican II was it engendered an appreciation for the Eastern Catholic churches and how they are fully Catholic. [00:31:33] Just as Catholic as the Latin Rite, but they have a different calendar. They have a different liturgy. Nobody thinks anything about that. Nobody's like, okay, we have to crush them and transition them to our Novus Ordo. That's ridiculous. [00:31:48] Also, think about what Pope Benedict XVI did just a few years ago when he established the Ordinariate, which is the. The. The ordinary for the Anglican converts into the Church. They were allowed to have a liturgy that is basically. It's kind of a hodgepodge. I love it, by the way. I'm not gonna. I'm not saying anything against it, but it does have. It combines a number of veterinary elements, but it's not the Novus Ordo. It's not the traditional en masse, yet it exists. [00:32:15] Are we saying. Are we demanding them? Are they not fully Catholic? Are they not fully united with us? [00:32:21] I thought the whole thing was unity and diversity anyway. [00:32:24] And yet now it's like, no, you must have absolute lockstep uniformity in liturgy. [00:32:31] But here's a little secret they don't want to tell you. It's a secret everybody knows. It's probably not a secret. [00:32:37] There is no uniformity within the Novus Ordo. That's what I was just saying. A few minutes ago, you attended Novus Ordo at a random parish in Iowa, then you go to another random parish in Los Angeles, then you go to another random parish in. In South Carolina, another one in New York. It's going to be very different. Heck, you might be very different depending on the priest you have at the same parish. Neighboring parishes have radically different liturgies. We all know this. Any Catholic has been around for any length of time knows this, knows that the liturgy they get will depend very much on the parish and the priest celebrating it. So there's actually not uniformity right now. And in fact, by having this traditionalized Novus Ordo, it's not going to be like the other Novus Ordos in the Diocese of Knoxville. If you really want it to be uniform, a unity, why don't you force every Novus Ordo perish to. To celebrate this traditionalized version with the incense, with the adorantum, with the Latin, all that, why don't you make everybody celebrate the exact same way? [00:33:40] Because that's what you're saying is somehow by having both the Latin, the traditional Latin Mass, and sort of, we have this lack of unity. [00:33:51] It's just. It's ridiculous. What they're really saying is that we don't like how the traditional Latin Mass people don't agree with us on everything. They don't go along with, know our, our political positions on immigration or whatever. They're not going along with the idea of the, the idea of these, like, you know, let's be more promoting of homosexuality and things like that, you know, things of that nature. [00:34:17] They want to have uniformity in, in those things, and they know we don't go along with that. [00:34:24] So it really is just a joke, this idea that, okay, this is going to bring about unity when really it's liturgical uniformity that never has existed in the history of the Church since Pentecost. [00:34:36] My last two points. First one is I just have a question for the reform of the reform bros. I used to be a reform of the reform guy for a very long time, so respect. [00:34:47] But here's my question. [00:34:51] If the reform of the reform is essentially making the Novus Ordo more traditional, more like the Traditional Latin Mass, why not just celebrate the Traditional Latin Mass? [00:35:04] What is fundamentally better about a traditionalized Novus Ordo than the Traditional Latin Mass? [00:35:11] Is it, do you really believe modern man is better off with a traditionalized Novus Ordo than a traditional Mass? And if so, why? [00:35:20] Why are they better off? [00:35:22] Or is it just simply prudential reasons? [00:35:25] Because, you know, the Church isn't going to accept a Traditional Latin Mass widespread everywhere. So let's go ahead and just get what we can, which is a Novus Ordo traditionalized. If that's your reason, if it's prudential reasons, okay, I get that. I understand that. And you might be right as far as what we can actually get. [00:35:44] Of course, there's no way to force that because of the nature of the Novus Ordo allows priests to have different options. So you're not going to get that no matter what. [00:35:53] But I just want to leave that for the people who think the traditionalized Novus Ordo, the reform, reform, is the way forward. [00:35:59] I just challenge you why? Why not the Traditional Mass? What is it about the traditionalized Novus Ordo that is fundamentally better for us, for the Church, than the Traditional Latin Mass? [00:36:12] And then one last point before we get to the live chat and people's comments, and that is Pope Leo. [00:36:22] I know anytime something goes wrong, we want to blame the Pope. [00:36:26] And I think I'm not going to blame him. I'm not going to blame him simply because I don't think a Pope should be telling all the bishops what to do as soon as they do something wrong and correcting them and bringing them in, stuff like that. That does mean at times, bad things are going to be allowed to happen. [00:36:44] But more importantly, I just think that I don't think Pope Leo is telling people, you need to do this. He might be. By the way, I want to be clear. [00:36:56] I recognize that Pope Leo might very much be 100% on board with what Knoxville's doing. I'm not going to claim he's a traditionalist. I'm not going to claim anything like that. I'm just simply saying, I get that. However, I think it's wrong to just jump to blaming Pope Leo. I think that's the problem with our hyper papalism. We have in the church today that any problem in the church, we immediately point to poplio. It's like if something, you know, in Cincinnati, here in Cincinnati, we've had a lot of problems with violence in our streets. I'm not blaming President Trump for that. I'm not saying, oh, President Trump's got to do something about that, because I don't want that to happen. I want, you know, people here to fix it. So I'm not going to blame Pope Leo for that. So I just wanted to bring that up as well. Okay, let's get to some of these comments in the live chat. Thank you. By the way, remember, Tuesday afternoons, 3:00pm Eastern Time, usually we do, we do this live. And so we love it when you jump in live and put comments in the chat and I'll read some of them. So James Martinelli says the prayers of our inherited Mass are so much richer compared to those Nova sort. Yeah, I mean, just. And here's the thing that's not saying that people who attend the Novus, or, I'm sorry, attend the traditional Mass, are superior to the Novus Ordo. When we say the prayers of the TLM are superior to Novus Ordo, it's simply if you look at the origin of both, you see why. The origin of TLM is prayers that were developed over hundreds of years and have been prayed by the Church for over a thousand years. And so they've kind of been vetted. They've been proven that these, these are the great prayers. These are prayers that really do lift our heart, our hearts and souls up to God. [00:38:32] Whereas the Novus Ordo was created by a committee in the 1960s. I mean, you can be offended by that if you want, but it's just a reality. Yes, they look, they did, you know, they had liturgical scholars involved who were looking at the past and things like that, but ultimately was a Mass by committee. Let's look at this prayer. Look at that prayer. Whereas when you look at the traditional at Mass, it was done organically. It was never a committee. It was like, okay, one. One bishop might aside, let's add this to the Mass. This is in the early centuries. And then other neighboring diocese, like, yeah, that's a great prayer. I really think we want to do that too. And eventually it was like, okay, these are the prayers we want to say. [00:39:09] Peter K. Explained that in Matt Fred's podcast. Well, I thought, okay, Dalek Zach 7 says, do you think this is a pilot program that will ever be offered as a compromise by usccb? I do think this is interesting. [00:39:24] I could see this definitely being something they do more and more now. Remember, Traditionius Custodis wanted the abolition of the traditional Mass in all diocesan Masses. So this did not affect, at least initially, like fraternity parishes, parishes run by religious orders, things like that. But your diocesan parish, that's where they wanted to eliminate. Francis wanted to eliminate the traditional at Mass, and his. He wanted to eventually eliminate altogether. But that's the start. And that's what they're doing in Knoxville. They're eliminating traditional at Mass. This really is following traditionally as custodians. I'm not claiming it's not. And this seems to be a compromise. They seem to think, okay, this will hopefully pacify the traditionalist. I mean, some traditionalists. And by the way, if you attend the traditional at Mass in Knoxville and you. And after this happens, you. You keep attending your parish at this traditionalized nosordo, no judgment is coming from me, that is for sure. Anybody who does judge somebody like that, get a. Get a life. Get a life. [00:40:20] I do not. Your situation might be. That might be the best you can do is to go to that, because there's nothing else within hours. You can't move all this stuff. So I just want to be very clear about that. [00:40:32] If you are in Knoxville and you transition with the diocese and you just keep attending the traditionalized nosource, because that's all you can. I am not judging you whatsoever. [00:40:42] That's totally understandable. [00:40:44] And yeah, okay, Daniel Verney says the Nosaurus is a Protestantized worship service. The emphasis on the sacrificial nature of Mass, the emphasis on the elevated spiritual statue of our Holy Priest. [00:40:56] Yes. And that is true. When we say it's Protestantized, we're not saying it's a Protestant service. We're not saying Protestants created or anything like that. What we are saying simply is that it was the explicit intention of the people who created Novus ordo to make it more palatable to non Catholics, particularly Protestants. And to do that you had to de. Emphasize the sacrificial nature and the unique nature of the priest because that's two things that the. The Protestants reject. It's just. That's just history. I can't, you know, I can't help it if history offends you. [00:41:31] Discipleist says hello from Knoxville Diocese. Yes, by the way, Discipleists. It was your letter I printed out that you posted on X. Thank you for doing that. Follow him. I don't even know what his handle is. But anyway, find him on X. I appreciate that. Now we are praying for you. I'm very sorry that's happened to you. [00:41:48] DW says thank God for the SSPX. The new Immaculate Church was built the last 700 years. Impossible. Pull the rug out from the night. Yeah, I mean, we could get into the whole SSPX issue I've talked about before, but they are going to continue what they're doing. They're not going to, you know, they. They don't really get impacted by these type of decisions. [00:42:05] Daniel Verney says, again, the unity that the bishops are striving for is only serving to alienate the most vibrant, growing portion of Catholics. Yeah, I didn't even mention that. Like, remember, if you're looking at where is the energy in the Catholic Church, where are the young people flocking to? [00:42:20] It's the traditional communities. It's the traditional Latin Mass. [00:42:24] So why are you singling them out as the problem that needs to be fixed when we know? I can guarantee you with absolute certainty without any research whatsoever that there are many parishes at. In the Diocese of Knoxville that are awful as far as how they celebrate Mass. In fact, I can say that I do have proof. I was down in the Diocese of Knoxville last summer and just due to circumstances, I had to. I ended up going to Mass on Sunday at the local Novus Ordo. [00:42:54] Sure enough, it was just, you know, what you would expect. [00:43:00] Wasn't traditionalized. That's for sure. It was. I mean, it just was. Yeah, it was not good. [00:43:06] So why aren't those being. Why aren't you talking to those people? Why aren't you shutting those people down and saying, hey, you got it, you got to get more traditionalized up? They never do that. [00:43:16] Okay. Jason Watson says calendars aren't uniform even within the. No. Such as the Ascension Thursday, Sunday in some countries. That's a good point. Yeah. When do you celebrate Ascension? It's not the same in, in various areas. It's not the same, you know. You know, when ascension is celebrated or epiphany and things like that. Good point, Jason. OMB reviews, by the way. Go to OMB Reviews, their website. They review movies and things like that. It's a great channel. Living in Chattanooga, I'm so heartbroken by the bishop's decision. Plan to get a group to write a letter to him in Rome to request relief and to change this decision. Here's hoping. Thank you very much. Thank you very much. Please pray for that effort. I think that's the right thing to do. We're not, you know, as Catholics, we have every right to do what he's doing, which is to write a letter to Rome, you know, appeal to Rome, appeal to the bishop and request relief. I commend you for doing that, and I will specifically make sure we did this at our family rosary the other night. Will continue to pray for you and the people in the Knoxville Diocese that perhaps this might be. You might get some relief from this morning. Cloak777 got a lot of comments today. I like it. This is my diocese. I'm heartbroken. I'm very sorry. We don't even get a chapel like Charlotte got. We got nothing. It's clear they don't understand us at all or have not even tried. [00:44:31] That's the thing. [00:44:32] I would just ask, did the bishop, Bishop Beckman of Knoxville, did he sit down with people who attend the traditional night and rite? Did he. Did he sit down with them and say, why is it that you attend the traditional night Mass? What are your views on Vatican ii? What are your views on the Novus Ordo? Did he sit down with them and ask them, what is it that you, you know, why is it that you go to traditional night Mass? If he had done all that and really listened and still decided to do this, that would be one thing. I wouldn't like it, but I'd understand. I'd be like, okay, he gave the effort, but we know he didn't do that. He might have talked to a couple of the priests there, but I guarantee he did not sit down with the lay people and ask them these questions. Instead, it's like Francis said, to do this a couple years ago, I have to do it. There's no smelling of the sheep. There's no dialogue. There's no synodality or whatever you want to call it. It's just imposed from on high. And if you dare to criticize it, you are seen as the problem. You're not a faithful Catholic. I saw this on X so much yesterday. Basically the blaming, the concern trolling, blaming the rad trads yet again. They're the ones at fault because they're complaining about this. I'm sorry, but yeah, I am complaining about this. Why? Because I know it harms souls. I know it leads people astray. I know it does much to harm the mission of the church. So yes, I will complain about it. [00:45:50] Theodore Sieber says 99% of traditionists would be fine if they got a Novus Ordo in Latin with ad orientum communion tongue and extending the pentary right before the Liturgy of the Word. I don't think that's true. I don't think that's true. So Theodore says 99% of traditionals would be fine if they got Novus Ordo in Latin with ad orientum communion on the tongue and extending the penitentiary right before the Liturgy of the Word. I think all those things would be great if you did that to Novus Ordo. Don't get me wrong, I think somebody who's attended church Latin Mass would very quickly be like, no, this is nice that you've done this, but this isn't, this isn't a replacement for the traditional Latin Mass. I mean, like I said, those things are good things, but they're not, they're not a replacement. So, okay, I've been going along here. I appreciate everybody in the live chat. I appreciate everybody who, you know, made comments. [00:46:34] Last pitch here for the day is go to shardofeden.com and pre order my science fiction novel Shard of Eden. Eden. I think you'll really enjoy it by the way it talks about the a church in the future that is back on track. And I'll just put there is a little, a little Easter egg in there that has to do with traditional Mass. Don't worry, there's not some big sermon about traditional Mass. Nothing like that. It's very subtle. You'll see it when you read it. So, okay, shard of Eden.com okay everybody. Until next time, God love you.