Tribalism in the Church Today (Guest: Anthony Abbate)

[00:00:15] Speaker A: Traditional conservative, progressive, boomer, millennial. We got lots of different tribes in the catholic church today, and so is there any way that we can all coexist? That's what we're going to talk about today. Tonight on crisis point, we're doing a little different to have everything revolve around our guests, because some of the prima donna, as you'll see pretty soon. So, you know, gotta do the evening. So anyway, actually, he's got a real job, unlike most of us, who just spout off on the Internet. So, anyway, so before we get started, though, smash that, like, button. Subscribe to our channel. Other people know about it. Also, we are in the middle of a fundraiser, so please go to crisismagazine.com and donate to our. Our campaign. We only do it twice a year. We don't nag you all year round, but we do need your support, so we really appreciate if you do that. Okay, so, you know, I didn't ask you before we went live how to pronounce your last name. Is it a bate? [00:01:08] Speaker B: It's about a. Technically, it's a bate. Most people say a body, but I'll say a bate. [00:01:13] Speaker A: Okay, so, Anthony, a bate is proof that literally anyone can start a podcast. [00:01:19] Speaker B: That's not a. That's not a lie. [00:01:21] Speaker A: He is the host of avoiding Babylon, which by some miracle, once had Mel Gibson on it. That is its claim to fame. He's a husband and father who is still living, for some reason, in New York, which I do not understand why. And he's only on this podcast because I lost a bet. [00:01:41] Speaker B: So I'm still in New York just. [00:01:44] Speaker A: Before he gets going for everybody doesn't know who Anthony is. And Anthony and I, let's just say we give each other a hard time on Twitter. So I'm not usually this disrespectful of guests, but I will be tonight, probably. [00:01:55] Speaker B: We are arch enemies. [00:01:57] Speaker A: Yes. [00:01:58] Speaker B: I'm still in New York because I'm job committed here. So my family owns a business and I'm a supervisor at a construction company. I've been in the union since I'm like 17. I gotta try and push out another ten years before I can get my pension and stuff. So I'm just trying to just stick that out for as long as I can and then hopefully we can get the heck out of here, because. And I'm also not in New York City proper, so I'm on Long island, which is. It's pretty much just a suburb. And, you know, it's. It's it's nothing like New York City. [00:02:27] Speaker A: At least it's all. It's all demon spawn to me. I mean, it doesn't really matter. So, yeah, he is the mob. And so, like, actually, the one thing I did not mention in your bio, which I probably should have, which is your. I think the best thing about your high school dropout. Right? [00:02:45] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. I love telling people. [00:02:47] Speaker A: Yeah, I think that's great. Kids, that's your lesson for today. Drop out of high school, and you'll end up on somebody's podcast one day. So. Okay, so why don't you actually, just real quick, give us kind of your background, like, how you went. I mean, because, you know, most of our. I mean, let's be honest, most of our guests on these podcasts are, you know, they theology degree people or their speakers or professors or book authors or something like that. Yet somehow you just ended up being a podcaster that a lot of people are listening to. And that is why he's on, by the way, he finally crossed. Avoiding Babylon now has more subscribers on YouTube than I do. That crisis point does. I'm not too proud to admit that. But anyway, so just kind of tell us about your background and how you got to be doing what you're doing now. [00:03:34] Speaker B: Um, I am from a, uh. I'm a cradle Catholic, which, uh, you don't see too often in this arena. A lot of the catholic commentator sphere is converts, because converts have a fire for their faith, and they're very learned. Um, but, yeah, I grew up in a home. I have, like, four brothers, four sisters. Um, but the reason I got into this was because I'm pretty obnoxious on Twitter, and I managed to pester a lot of people enough to just be guests on my show. You were probably my first live interview, I think. And I just kept bugging you and bugging you, and you eventually caved in and said, okay, you gave on. And I did that with Taylor Marshall. I did that with Tim Flanders. I did that with Kennedy Hall. I did that. I mean, just about anybody that I enjoy. [00:04:20] Speaker A: How you get your wife to. I just. Is that how you get your wife? [00:04:23] Speaker B: Basically, she's. She knows the drill by now. She knows it. She'll never get me to shut up if I. I don't get my way. So. But, yeah, so I just kept pestering people and getting them to come on. And I think that people kind of like that I am a high school dropout because I don't take myself too seriously on these things. Like, I obviously I'm not going to. Going to be a highly philosophical or theological show. It's more just kind of like a blue collar catholic atmosphere that I think people kind of. I think that's most people that are watching. [00:04:52] Speaker A: Yeah. And I I do. I will say, boy, I gotta say something nice. Don't. I feel like I'm almost obligated to. I have to, you know, but, no, it's, it's a good take you guys do there, because it is different from a lot of the podcast, catholic podcasts out there. And I think that's, you know, I think that's. I think that's great. So how long have you been doing the podcast? [00:05:16] Speaker B: I started in 2021. My first video was about the mandate because I was about to lose my job over the mandate because Con Edison, we do subcontracting Con ed, and Con ed put the mandate in effect, and I almost lost my job because of the letter, the statements Pope Francis had made about it. And my. And Con Edison required me to have a priest signed specifically. Like, I had to have a priest actually say, I, you know, I'm endorsing him to get this mandate, which, thank God, I was able to find a traditional priest in the New York area that was willing to go against the bishop a little bit and do that for me. So that was my first video, and then we started a catholic trivia show, and Rob was my first guest on catholic trivia, and him and I hit it off so well that I asked him to just join. We only had, like, 200 subscribers at the time. And I want. I don't do well with what you do, where you will do a lot, a show, a solo show, and be able to just expound on a topic. I don't do well unless I'm bouncing back and forth with someone. So that seemed to work pretty well with Rob and I. We've, you know, been friends for about two years now. We've met in person twice, and, uh. And that's, yeah, that's pretty it. Pretty much it, yeah. [00:06:27] Speaker A: The trivia show I was, was on once or twice. I can't remember at least twice. [00:06:31] Speaker B: You were on twice? [00:06:32] Speaker A: No. I didn't win either time, though. I don't think Flanders won either, though, when he and I both were on it. Did he? No. [00:06:38] Speaker B: We've had some good players on that show. [00:06:40] Speaker A: Yeah, I know. I can't remember who won the time Flanders and I both were on because we had, like, five or six people at one time. [00:06:46] Speaker B: Might have been Nicholas Cavazos. That kid is a Wiz, man, he's just so sharp and brilliant. And he's a convert also. It's hard to beat the converts, man. They know their catholic faith. [00:06:54] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, Flanders and I are both converts, too, so. Yeah, I'm just old, so I forget everything. So that. That's how I. That's how I lose, so. Okay, so, anyway, what we were talking about, what we want to talk about, we might just shoot the. Shoot a little bit here, but I kind of tolerate at least the tribalism in the church, and I think it's something you and I both are very aware of, is how we have all these different tribes within Catholicism. And we're mostly talking about American Catholicism, of course, because we don't live in Africa or Europe or something, so we can't speak to that. Maybe a little bit Canada. We ask Kennedy. But, like, the tribalism. So what would you say? Kind of. How would you break down the groups in the church that you've seen and interacting with all of them? Like, how would you say that? What would you say they are? [00:07:39] Speaker B: I would say that everybody has their, like, their third rails, where if you go and cross into them, you're all of a sudden off the team and nobody wants to associate with you. So, I mean, you clearly have the trads, right? But then you have, like, uber trads who are, you know, but then you still have the. The Steubenville Catholic crowd. Now, what. What I. What I started doing was I. I still like to have conversations with people of goodwill just regardless. Right? So I saw you had Jimmy Aiken on, you've had Trent Horn on. And I get a lot of pushback when I have those guys on from the more trad audience. But to me, to have a guy like Trent Horn on, I don't. I mean, I want to still keep those lines of communication open because I see guys going off into their little corners and not having conversations anymore. And it's. It's a little discouraging at times when you have somebody on and everybody just pounds on you for like, oh, you're talking to this modernist. So you're talking to this. This set of a contest, depending on who you're having on, because our guests will range everywhere from Patrick Coffin to Trent Horn, you know, and there's a wide range in between there, because some people don't think Francis is the pope. Some people think he's the greatest pope in history. It's a strange. It's a strange mixed bag out there right now. I found. [00:08:59] Speaker A: Yeah, it is, because it's even weird. Like, if you look at the kind of hyper papalist types. We just talked about this the other day was, like, you have the conservative ones who are basically, like, when the pope says something like he did earlier this week about, you know, too much. Well, I'm not sure if I can say it in Italian. [00:09:17] Speaker B: You can say in Italian, which I think would be pronounced fociagine. [00:09:21] Speaker A: Okay. Too much of that in the church and the concern. And so people are saying, oh, you know, I kind of had my podcast, was Izzy based now? And people. And the conservative Pope slainers were like, oh, he's always been base. You just don't. You refuse to see it, whatever, which, of course, is ridiculous. And then. But then the liberal pope explainers are, like, trying to act like it didn't even happen. [00:09:41] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:09:42] Speaker A: And so, like, even within tribes, and you see this very much in the trad world. Like, there's this. There's this blanket view of, like, the trads, but, like, those of us who kind of interact with a lot of triads know, it's not blanket. It's not a stereotype. So, yeah, I mean, I think it's. And I also think, like, what you're saying about, like, I've had Trent and Jimmy and people like, that. I'm with you. I think that the key point is, are they of goodwill? And you have to judge that somebody might be a good will and you don't think it. But that's why, for example, like, I just block on Twitter 99% of the city of a contest because they don't come across as having goodwill. [00:10:19] Speaker B: 1958 settings are a bit much. It's almost like if they're almost. Man, it's taken me a long time to be able to handle them. They're the electric crowd that you just every. They're just. [00:10:31] Speaker A: It just worth the time. Like, I have a certain amount of time in the day, and I'm going to do certain things. I have to interact with people. You know, I got spend time with my family. I do my work job and stuff like that. And so it's like, do I really want to spend time beating my head up against the wall against someone who clearly is coming at this without goodwill? [00:10:48] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:10:49] Speaker A: Like, I will talk to someone like Father Nix for as long as, you know he's awesome want. Because he's clearly of goodwill, even though he does not think. Francis, I hope I'm not. [00:10:58] Speaker B: Yeah. I don't know what he said publicly. [00:11:00] Speaker A: No, I already said that. But anyway, whatever. [00:11:04] Speaker B: He's a priest. In good standing. And is he so right? [00:11:07] Speaker A: I mean, is he really. I know. [00:11:09] Speaker B: Absolutely. [00:11:10] Speaker A: The point is, is that he's a good guy. I mean, clearly he's a good guy. So I have no problem interacting with him. But, like, I'm just not going to spend time with people, you know, who don't have good, like, I blocked somebody today because I said something critical about Israel, and they just sent me a meme that I really hate the Jews. I'm like, you know, there's no point in having conversation with you or spending time interacting with you because it just, it's just a waste of time. And I feel like that, though, is the tribalism we're talking about is. My point is, I'm not saying my way is the right way. I'm just saying that's kind of been my. I look to see, okay, does this person have goodwill or not? [00:11:49] Speaker B: I think. I think there's a. There's an aspect of epistemic humility or epistemological humility. I talked to dropout, dropping the big words. Well, I think it just comes down to the people. Like, so we described the set a's. Right now, the set a's are so convinced they know exactly what's going on that it's hard to have a conversation with them. [00:12:11] Speaker A: Right. [00:12:11] Speaker B: Where I think a guy like, even guys like Trent, guys like you, me, father, nix all the people we're talking about. They. I think even though they have their opinions, there's still a little bit of humility there. Where I do. There's so much confusion going on right now that anybody that says in the past ten years, your faith hasn't been shaken a little bit, where you're not 100% sure what's going on. I do think you're. You're lying, because this. It's been a very difficult ten years to be Catholic. It's been difficult to defend some of the things that have come out of the Vatican. It's been difficult to, to understand what I mean. Look, I won't say I don't think Francis is the pope, but I wouldn't be shocked if a future pope said that. Right? I mean, I don't think it's absurd to think that Francis isn't the pope. I don't think that. But I don't think it's crazy to think that. [00:13:04] Speaker A: Yet when I've talked to people privately and they've expressed, they're just like, I don't understand how he could be the pope. [00:13:12] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:13:12] Speaker A: I'm sympathetic to that. I'm not saying that, you know, I'm not, you know, that that's not somebody. I'm going to be like, oh, no, you can't say that. You can't think that that's wrong. Think. I'm just going to say, I get that. I do understand, personally, I understand how he can still be pope. I mean, I've worked it out in my head, but, like, I understand how somebody else could be, like, at least questioning that. It's when they're very dogmatic about it that I just feel like they're, it's just very difficult. And I feel like the same thing we talked to real hardcore hyper papalist. [00:13:43] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:13:44] Speaker A: When they'll, they might admit, yes, there is a, you know, you can, the pope could be wrong at something, but you can never get them to admit a specific example of it. I mean, it's just like, maybe this. [00:13:56] Speaker B: What he said this week, that's a new generation. This is, these are the Gen Z guys, right? So you, you see these guys popping up. It's now, a lot of them are influenced by Nick Foen. A lot of them are influenced by Michael Jones. They're the younger guys. They're in their early twenties, even teens. Some of these guys are in their teens. They're on Twitter and they're writing posts like, Pope Francis is the most post, most base pope ever. And, you know, they're, they're making memes about Francis, these. [00:14:24] Speaker A: So I don't, I honestly, this is where my old man routine kicks in because I admit I almost knew nothing about Nick Fuentes. [00:14:33] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:14:33] Speaker A: I mean, I've seen people say he's anti semitic and literally, that's, I've never, ever listened to him or seen him. And so is he somebody that, like, thinks the pope is based or something? Is that. [00:14:46] Speaker B: Yeah, well, he's just, he. Okay, so look, him and E. Michael Jones have a similar position where they just think it's, you have to be careful letting the catholic commentator become the pope. Right. And I think that's all a danger. We all have to be careful of. Like, like, you have these cult of personalities that pop up and I've, I mean, I love a lot of catholic commentators. Right. And you, you can fall into anything that guy says must be the truth. And that, and then when that overrides certain things that are, that we have to be cautious of, like, you just have to be careful of that. So that's one aspect I think Nick Fuentes, I mean, people don't take into account that when he went through most of his cancellations, the kid was 18 years old. Right. So at 18 years old, you're canceled by the daily wire. You get booted off of every single platform. It caused him to just get more and more inflammatory. Right. So I do think part of his shtick is to just say something so outrageous that some people are going to get that it's a joke and other people are going to lose their minds over it. And I think it's a generational humor thing. So these younger kids, I talked to Trent Horn about this, these younger kids with. With some of the memes they do, um. Uh, what did Trent call it? He called it, um, like, irony posting, like, to the point where it's just. It just almost black pills you because it's right. It just goes into the ground. And I think you. It's a. It. It's hard to know when they go too far or when they're just being funny or, you know, it really is a generational thing. [00:16:19] Speaker A: It is. And this is interesting because just talking to my wife about this today, the second f word, not the main f word, but the f word that we've been talking about this week with Pope Francis. Okay? So when I was growing up in the eighties, we said it all the time. I mean, all the guys, I don't think the girls said, but the guys, we call each other that term, like, constantly. [00:16:41] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:16:42] Speaker A: And then it was. It became, at some point, probably in the 2000 something, it came in grain, maybe the nineties, that, okay, this is the same as the n word. You just cannot say it. And it was. And it got hammered. Hammered, hammered, hammered home. And so. But then what happened was it got to a point where it was actually worse to use that word than it was to engage in that activity. It's crazy. Even among Catholics almost. It's like you get more hammered if you said the word than if you were advocating for the activity. And so what I think what's happened is a lot of young people who didn't grow up like I did, where, you know, people just sell a time, and then they were told not to say. They only heard. They saw. All they saw is people acting like saying that word is the worst possible sin. And they knew that's. That's baloney. And so now they say it as kind of a, you know, the based thing. [00:17:37] Speaker B: Yeah. It's like giving a finger. [00:17:39] Speaker A: Like, for me, I. Like. I don't say. I don't use the word I in common conversation. I don't say. I actually am trying not to say, I don't cuss. I mean, hardly at all. And so just, I used to when I was younger, and actually, it's the one. I told this on the podcast. I can't remember. It's the one sin I gave up, like, immediately on deciding to not do it. And I say sin because the way I was doing, saying, I'm not saying every cuss words is saying a customer. But I remember because in high school and in early college, I was cussing all the time. And I remember walking back to my dorm, like, freshman or sophomore year. I think it was my freshman year of college, I just thought to myself, I don't want to be kind of person who cusses all the time. [00:18:17] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:18:17] Speaker A: I said, I'm not going to do this anymore. And I just stopped doing it. And so, like I said, every once in a while, you know, I'm not saying I never do it. I'm just saying. [00:18:24] Speaker B: And actually, when you. When you do it in a, let's say, you get mad and it slips out. It makes your anger more precise. Like, so if I ever curse in front of my kids, they know I'm dead serious, you know, like, because I never ever, I have a filter on in front of my family at all times. So if I ever cross that line, it's like, whoa, dad is angry. Like, you know, and it. It. So it can be more effective to actually control your language. I work around construction workers. It is very difficult to control your language. But because I have. It's been a, like, I've had people know that I'm Christian because I don't talk like a trucker at work, you know? [00:19:06] Speaker A: Right. [00:19:06] Speaker B: So it is. [00:19:07] Speaker A: But, like. But it's like going, what you're saying the generational thing. So people like, my son's age, it's not like they. I'm talking about the people who are like Catholics and trying to. Because they see the ridiculousness of a culture that wants to treat a word worse than the activity itself. And so they. They are more like, use the word. It's still. But, you know, so I do think that's a generational thing. And I. I think Trent, though, is right to be concerned that it can get to a point where it becomes a very cynical. [00:19:40] Speaker B: That's it. [00:19:42] Speaker A: And becomes where you're just doing it. And because it is like, you know, the catechism is very clear. The activity is sinful. It's a disordered. It's a disorder to have that orientation. But we are to treat them with respect and with you know, and so I think a casual use of that term can be violating that. Whereas I think, like, with the way the pope used it, kind of appropriate. I'm not going to clutch my pearls about it, because, like you just said, it has a certain impact if you're not using it. If you're not using words like that a lot, when you do it, actually, it does kind of come out. It gives a certain shock value that can get people, like, to wake up. And so it's kind of like what you're saying with your kids. You don't use that term, a term like that, any customer. But when you do kind of break out cuss word, I can understand that. I'm not going to think that that's like, you know, I'm not going to treat that like that's the worst thing possible. [00:20:32] Speaker B: So the, the funny thing is when we would say that to our friends, though, because, I mean, we're. We're technically, I mean, you're Gen X. I'm millennial. Right. But, like, it's. We're pretty much both from the analog. [00:20:44] Speaker A: Are you millennial? What is millennial? I can't remember what the. [00:20:47] Speaker B: 81. It starts in 81, so technically I'm 82. [00:20:50] Speaker A: When does it end? [00:20:52] Speaker B: I believe 99 or 98. [00:20:54] Speaker A: So I have actually kids who are millennials. [00:20:56] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:20:57] Speaker A: And I have kids who are. Whatever. The next one is. [00:20:58] Speaker B: Gen Z. Yeah, my kids are all Gen Z, so. But when we would say that to our friends, we never meant it in a. You know, we never meant that, like, you're. You're same sex attracted. That wasn't what. [00:21:12] Speaker A: You're lame. [00:21:12] Speaker B: It just means not being gay. It wasn't really like that. Where I still think even back then, if it was a person with same sex attraction, you knew not to call someone. Like. Like you would never call. [00:21:28] Speaker A: Right. [00:21:28] Speaker B: You still knew back then, even before all the political correctness, you would never call a person with same sex attraction that word. You just wouldn't. I mean, even from when I was in high school, it was already taboo to, you know, be ridiculously offensive to anybody. You know, it probably all started with Seinfeld in the early nineties when the. [00:21:47] Speaker A: Not. There's nothing. [00:21:47] Speaker B: There's anything wrong with that. You know, that's. That's what really started hitting the mainstream. [00:21:52] Speaker A: Yeah, it did. And so, like, you know, within the church, I do think we have, like, these different factions. It's. And like you said, it's not just like trad and conservative and liberal. Those are kind of always been. But the generational divide. [00:22:05] Speaker B: Well, I noticed with Israel, Israel's a topic that's a huge generational divide. Right. [00:22:10] Speaker A: So you think so? I have not figured out who. What it is like, you know, the divide you're talking about within Catholicism, it's. [00:22:16] Speaker B: A generational divide because you have to understand, like, guys like us and older. Right. So you see guys like Gavin Ashenden are very pro Israel. Right, right. So where I think you and I are not pro Israel. We're not anti Israel. We're kind of just. [00:22:31] Speaker A: So you got anti war. [00:22:33] Speaker B: Anti war. But also, I think you recognize the inherent opposition to Catholicism that modern Judaism is set up to have, right? [00:22:41] Speaker A: Yes. Honestly, the funny thing is, with the israeli palestinian conflict, I don't even see that much as a religious conflict. I know religion's obviously involved, but as far as my analysis of it, I do think it's mostly a secular type conflict. But at the same time, you're right, though. Modern Judaism, the most important thing is it's not salvification. Uh, that's a big word, by the way, Anthony, for you. I know your husband. I can explain to you if you want. I mean, you know, it's. And that's the problem. And of course, neither is Islam. Islam's not Salviviki either. You know, it's like, you know, we have to have this idea of. We need to evangelize all non Catholics. But so anyway, go on about, like. So anyway, so use the generation I've been confused, to be honest, about who's been. Because people who have been against, like, our involvement in Ukraine and are now all of a sudden big on getting involved in this one in Israel. And I've been like, wait a second. That doesn't seem consistent to me. [00:23:40] Speaker B: So in the catholic sphere, I think it's a generational thing, because I think the older guys, you got to realize they're removed right away from the war. They're the first generation. You know, they're the baby boomers. So their entire worldview is a worldview revolved around the atrocities of World War Two. They're watching movies like Sophie's choice. They're watching Schindler's list, these things like that. Now, you and I saw those movies, but I think after 30, 40 years goes by, the propaganda starts to die down a little bit. Now you have this new generation who really is getting. They're seeing what's happening in Israel, and they're seeing it from a totally different perspective because they didn't have the same proximity to World War Two. So the further away from that event you get, the more. And plus, propaganda is starting to wake people. Like, people are waking up to what propaganda is, I think. So. They're starting to realize, wait, this narrative was given to us. This narrative was given to us. And I think that people are just starting where I think guys like you and I are in the middle of that, where we're not. So on the new Gen Z, like, just, you know, they have this term called the noticing. Like, they're noticing all these people are in positions of, you know, power and things like that, where I think you and I just have more of a sober view of it because we're kind of in the middle of it. And it's, you know, I think that modern Judaism is oppositional to Catholicism, but I also don't like the idea of blaming everything on a specific group of people. It's ridiculous. It's no different than the woke stuff and saying straight white men are the, everything's there for right. [00:25:22] Speaker A: I mean, it's the identity politics just done from the right as much as it can be done from the left. And I just think with the whole israeli palestinian conflict, to me, it's like, okay, you gotta, like, I get if you live in Israel, heck, even if you're jewish, I get you're gonna have an emotional reaction to October 7 and you're gonna say, bomb the crap out of those people. Nukem I get that. We, I mean, we lived in America. 911 how old were you? 911 I was 18. And were you in New York? [00:25:55] Speaker B: I was 2020. I was 20. [00:25:56] Speaker A: You were in New York, right? [00:25:57] Speaker B: Yeah. One of the most unbelievable events. [00:26:00] Speaker A: Like, I get that. Like we all said after 911, George Bush, go nuke the whole world if you have to. Whatever it takes. Now, I think 911 should, should have taught us lessons that just because we were justified in retaliating Osama bin Laden, what happened was the horrific Patriot act. You have a 20 year war in Afghanistan, which is a disaster, a stupid war in Iraq, all on the heels of 911. So just because you have a legitimate reason to defend yourself, to retaliate in this case, doesn't mean it justifies everything you do. And that's how I feel. The same thing here with Israel. You have a legitimate need to defend yourself. I get that. But what you're doing is not defending yourself. No, I mean, and like you said, it's like the, the, especially the boomer conservatives. And for, I get every, every single time I say the word boomer on Twitter, something, I get somebody complaints and I'm like, boomer is a mentality. It's mostly found in those who are actually in the boomer generation. But it's not, it's not like everybody in the boomer generation has that mentality, and there's people outside of it who have it, but they very much. I mean, Dave Smith says this, like, world War two is the origin story of the american empire. And so everything goes back to World War two, no matter what it's like. You see, George Weigel is the perfect catholic example of this, where literally everything is compared to World War two. They never look anything else. They don't look at like, world War one, they don't look at Vietnam, they don't look at all Afghanistan. It's just all World War two. And of course, World War two, you know, the horrors of the Holocaust, the horrors of what happened to the Jews before that in, like, Eastern Europe, Russia, all that stuff that's all, like, actually happened and is legitimate. But that then doesn't mean that every single thing that modern jews do after that is immaculate. Yeah, that's. That's what. You know. [00:27:56] Speaker B: But so, yeah, you think the. Because I've been having this thought come up a lot that World War two is not just the origin story for the american empire. I think it's the origin story for the post conciliar church as well. And I think the council is severely affected by the post war world. You have all these cardinals going now. You have Cardinal Ratzinger going in. This is a guy who was forced to join the Hitler youth, right? He has. And I think that helps explain a lot of his approaches to some of the more controversial things he said about us not having a mission to the Jews anymore, things like that. But I really do think that that war shaped the council itself and the way people went in, and they were like, well, we don't want to. People saw everything before the war as medieval, barbaric, things like that, and they wanted to bring the church into the modern world so we don't fall into this nonsense again. [00:28:53] Speaker A: It's an irony, though, don't you think, that if you read the council documents, what you will see is there's this optimism about the future, optimism in mankind, which I think is ironic because you literally are just a decade out from a decade and a half out from some of the worst whores of humanity. You have literally the Holocaust. You have world War two itself. You have what Stalin's doing. That's like 20 years in the past, tops. Why would you be optimistic about human nature. And yet, if you look at the council documents, there's this, like, innate optimism that we can have a peaceful world through human means. And I just don't. That's one of the things I think about me. Read Vatican II. It just is a very age of Aquarius, 1960s type of, like, way of looking at it. And it's like I. And that's just the way people did. But I think you're absolutely right. It's a result of World War two. I mean, that. That shaped a whole more than a generation. [00:29:57] Speaker B: It's. It's okay. So realizing how important stories are, I think this stuff started to pop into my head after the pandemic because I saw the narratives that they were setting for this thing, and it was all this emotion that they were, you know, keeping the numbers up on the screen, letting you know how many people have passed and all this stuff. And I'm. And it. That was like a watershed moment for me. It started with. With the first Trump election. Right? The first Trump election. Just the lies from the media and the narrative they were pushing. But when, when, when Covid happened, it was unlike anything I had ever experienced. And just seeing the way they put forth the narrative. And that made me start looking at all the narratives that we've ever been handed, starting with that war and even going through 911. Like, 911. I question everything about that because, like. [00:30:52] Speaker A: I was, now we're getting to Anthony's conspiracy theories. [00:30:56] Speaker B: Well, not even that. I was just a George Bush Republican, right? I was. I was like, let's go get Saddam. [00:31:05] Speaker A: Not even I've mentioned, was it with you. I mentioned that I, like, I actually applied to CIA. [00:31:11] Speaker B: No way. [00:31:12] Speaker A: After 911. Yep. [00:31:14] Speaker B: Wow, that's funny. [00:31:16] Speaker A: I was a computer programmer living outside DC, so, I mean, I was within driving distance of Langley. And I was so much caught up in the, you know, the 911, the patriotism, all that stuff. And I was. Before that, I was, I was already, I wasn't a huge, like, I didn't vote for Bob Dole, for example, but I did vote for George Bush. And so I was still caught up. [00:31:35] Speaker B: Did you vote for Mitt Romney? [00:31:37] Speaker A: Oh, I stopped voting for. I, the only, literally, until Trump, the only republicans I vote for president had the last name Bush. I mean, okay, so what broke you. [00:31:48] Speaker B: Out of the neocon thing? Because I was a, I was a Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity. [00:31:52] Speaker A: I was too. And so, like, I was definitely neoconish then. I just had all, I had started. I didn't really go full anti neocon until 2008, not, you know, Ron Paul and all that. So at this point though, 2001. And so, yeah, I applied. I never heard back, fortunately, thank God. But, you know, I was there was, you know, trying to apply for a position as like a computer programmer or something because I just wanted to serve, you know, my country and stuff like that. And I thought this was great. I mean, I look back on that, I'm just like, holy cow. I mean, that is, I mean, that's working for the enemy basically at this point. So, yeah, so I think there was something to be said for that. But I just feel like, you know, so much has happened since then. And like you said, the generational thing, like, I think the George Weigels, I don't want to pick on him, but like, just, he's a representative. [00:32:41] Speaker B: He's still trapped in 1999. The guy's writing articles as if we're still in the Cold War and he thinks we're still under the reign of Benedict XVI. It's a strange thing to witness when. [00:32:51] Speaker A: You read his articles and then you have young people. I mean, there are young people today, you know, who are in college who they almost, the only pope they really remember that much is Francis. I mean, because they might be 18 years old. He's been pope for eleven years. I mean, they have very little memory of anybody before Francis. And so that shapes you very differently. [00:33:12] Speaker B: This is the most interesting thing, right? So you have this new generation. So a lot of the trads in this new generation are very new converts and they don't have the same love and nostalgia for John Paul II and Benedict. Okay? So they're able to look at this, these popes. We talked about this a little bit on my show the other night. I actually had Cale Zeldin come on because I want to talk to somebody from your generation. It was kind of a bad connection. So I think it's probably good that we do this. I grew up, John Paul II was a hero, right? He was all the right. People hated him. He had, you know, he was up against the communists. I see we're seeing videos of Gorbachev shaking before him. Him and Reagan together bring down what we, we think they bring down communism. You know, apparently it was, well, you know, welling up inside our own country. We didn't realize, but he was this larger than life figure. He would go around the world bringing young people in with his world, day of youth things. It wasn't until Taylor Marshall starts telling me about the Assisi meetings that I even heard about that stuff. I had no idea Assisi happened, right? So all I have is this love for the man, this nostalgia for the man. And it's very sentimental, in the same way that New Yorkers came together after 911, and we were, you know, we would be in traffic and be like, no, no, no, you go. No, no, no, you go. We'll zip her. Don't worry. You know, like, you had this. This. This sentimentality between New Yorkers because we felt like we were in something together. And as soon as Obama gets elected, that whole thing fades. Now we're in the aftermath of John Paul II and Benedict. And these young guys, especially the trads, are quick to say things like, John Paul II was the most evil pope in history because of the Assisi meetings, but they don't have that love and nostalgia for him. It's a very interesting dynamic to witness. In other words, it is, because I. [00:35:12] Speaker A: Admit, it might be a personal thing. I don't know what it is, but I do not like it when people try to act like JP two and Francis are the same. I have been critical. I've written articles critical of JP two. For example, the CC meeting, most particularly, my book, deadly indifference, goes through that. I just think there's a fundamental difference with JP two. It was very obvious his goal was the advancement of the catholic faith to bring souls to Christ. I mean, that was clearly what he wanted. But I think, honestly, I do have mild boomers. [00:35:47] Speaker B: It's not our fault, man. It's just our generation. I made a joke the other day. [00:35:52] Speaker A: I said, well, I think also the young people are broadening that definition of boomers. I mean, well, that's what I said. If you're over 30, you're a boomer. [00:36:01] Speaker B: You know, my joke was, you have Gen Z. Boomers, Gen Z and millennials and Gen X, the generation everybody forgot about that Gen Z just refers to as boomers. They just lump you guys in with them. [00:36:14] Speaker A: I know. And, like, it's funny because Gen X is a weird. Is a weird generation. I'm very proud to be part of it. But it is funny how now we're just like, you're just a boomer. Um, which, whatever. I. That's okay. But, like, I don't want to be hip and cool. I've. You know, I decided that many years ago that it's not older people who try to still be hip and cool, like, the people who are, like, still doing, like, youth ministry when they're, like, my age. That's cringe, man. [00:36:39] Speaker B: Oh, come on now. [00:36:41] Speaker A: Come on now. You're naming names. I like Chris. [00:36:44] Speaker B: I like to, I like them too. I interact with him and stuff, too. But some of, even, even the. And the other one is Jason Everett. Like, I really like Jason Everett. He was very effective in helping me, you know, conquer some of my, my, you know, past behaviors. Right. But there does come a point where you have to stop trying to be the young, hip, cool guy. And we, and it's hard to meet that transition, I think, as we're getting older. Like, I don't want to be the creepy old guy that's trying to be hip with the young. [00:37:12] Speaker A: Right. And that's a problem. Yeah. How old am I? I'm 53. [00:37:15] Speaker B: You're ten years older than me. I'm 42. You're 53. [00:37:18] Speaker A: Yeah. So I was born in a decade of the seventies. I'm not a sixties guy. But like, I do think though, like, yeah, so I'm not like that. So my point, though, about JP two is that he was definitely a flawed pope. I mean, all popes are on some level, I don't think he should have been canonized so quickly, but that's just because I don't think anybody should be canonized within 50 years of their death. And I think we should stop canonizing popes for, for a long time because of other reasons. But I think that, like, ultimately I saw firsthand people who were brought to the catholic faith or increasing their catholic faith because of him. I mean, I became Catholic not because of him, but he definitely was in that factor in the whole decision making process, seeing this representative of a robust Catholicism, unapologetic Catholicism to me. Now, I do think, like, he was incredibly naive about, like, ecumenism and like, interreligious dialogue. I mean, like, I went, when I was doing my research for my book, deadly indifference, I went through, like, all of his talks to Muslim, a muslim audience, because he would like, you know, meet with or when he's visiting some muslim country, he'd always do, never once, not one instance of him actually saying to them, you need to come to Christ or something of that level. I get that. Even diplomatically, you can say that never. In fact, sometimes he said things where a muslim of goodwill could interpret it to mean, I can remain, this pope thinks I can remain Muslim. That's not good. That's not good. I do think that's obviously, but that, but here's the thing, and this is, I mean, people are complex. You cannot just say, okay, now I'm going to write him off. And he's just, he's a terrible pope. France, terrible pope. You know, whatever. It's like, that's just not how it works. [00:39:03] Speaker B: I mean, I think a lot of that is because he was subject to propaganda that Pittsburgh, all of humanity's past atrocities were religious wars, right? So I think all these popes after the council are just like, look, we don't. You know, because you have the protestant catholic wars. You had all the stuff that happened between the IRA and Ireland. And you do. See, look, there has always been religious wars, right? So the narrative gets put that religion is the source of conflict. So now all of a sudden, you have these guys come out of the council, and John Paul was in there for 28, 30 years, and he wants to put forth this different face where. No, no, look, let's just go along to get along. And the damage it caused to the catholic faith has been irreparable in a. It really is cataclysmic, what happened through this attempt at being ecumenical. It's sad. [00:40:02] Speaker A: Yeah. And, I mean, it's funny because I literally wrote a high school textbook on communism and interreligious dialogue, and I go back on it. It's not terrible. Like, I wouldn't, like, say, no, you can't use it, because, actually, it's a lot of good information just about the religions understanding them. But I definitely think the whole effort has been more harm than good, by far. And, you know, the actual official efforts, like I've always said, like, the pro life movement is a great ecumenical movement because we have a common goal. We can work together, but while we're working together, we can have frank conversations about what we believe and what we don't believe. And, I mean, that's pro life movements what brought me into the church. So, you know, there's a difference there. [00:40:41] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:40:41] Speaker A: So. [00:40:43] Speaker B: Well, getting back to tribalism, you have one of the. One of the groups you have are the JP. Two Catholics. Right, right. So. And look, you. Okay, so Kennedy Hall's on his crusade against the charismatics right now, right? Like, he's just. [00:40:59] Speaker A: I mean, seriously, dude, he's like. I came into the catholic church. [00:41:04] Speaker B: Who? [00:41:05] Speaker A: Charismatic Catholics. [00:41:06] Speaker B: I was raised in the movement. My parents, my dad from. [00:41:10] Speaker A: You know, I lived right down the street. There was a charismatic community right across street from our parish when I lived for ten years living in Maryland, I live right down the street from very good friends with a lot of them. I mean, most of our friends were part of the community. And, like, for example, when I decided. When I did organize a door to door campaign for our parish, guess who are the people who came out for it? The charismatic Catholics and all the other Catholics were like, no, I want nothing to do with that. So I. [00:41:33] Speaker B: There are some of the most faithful Catholics you'll ever meet in your life. They are on fire for God. Right. Now, I'm raised in the charismatic. Not like, I mean, look, my parents are bringing me to, like, these charismatic conferences now. Now I do see the dangers in it, right? So my, my father, my parents go to Medjugorj. My father has a conversion in Medjugorje, comes back. He's playing guitar at mass. They're going, you know, they're having all these. [00:41:57] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:41:58] Speaker B: Crazy events. [00:41:59] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:42:00] Speaker B: Now, what I saw was my father going from spiritual high to spiritual high and all these different conferences. And then when that spiritual high wore off, my father stopped going to mass. So I I definitely see the dangers in this. You're chasing a spiritual high, and it's. [00:42:14] Speaker A: A very emotion based, very emotion based. [00:42:16] Speaker B: So now I had a very similar experience growing up. I had these emotional highs. My faith would be, it was like a roller coaster ride. Now, my faith doesn't stabilize until I find tradition. I find tradition. The traditional atmosphere has done, I can't even tell you what it's done for my life. It has stabilized my faith. It's changed the way I'm raising my children. It's done all these amazing things, right? But my mother speaks in tongues. Right. And the way she described it to me, she made a life in the spirit. And I've never, like, I really don't talk about this much because I, everybody, a lot of people think if Father Ripper says something, it's infallible. Right now, I don't know if he's right or wrong on this. All I can tell you is my mother explained it to me as she was praying, the, our father, and all of a sudden, her tongue just started rolling, and it wasn't something she was trying to mimic or anything. Now, my mother is the holiest person I know. She would never lie. So I either have to think that maybe, maybe she's a little crazy. I don't. She's not a crazy person. Right. I don't understand it. [00:43:18] Speaker A: Yeah. And I think there are multiple explanations for a lot of stuff in this world that we can't explain. People want to say it's either, you know, God or the devil, and I don't think that's the case. I think there are multiple ways you can explain tight things like this. Like, I personally think when it comes to the charismatic renewal, I don't think the speaking tongues is a legitimate expression of what, the biblical, biblical version? I don't think that's the case. I also think that, you know, a lot of times you'll hear, like, prophecies slaying in the spirit, all stuff. I don't think the majority of that is legitimate either. You know, I think those are mostly. I think it's mostly like psychological kind of conditioning, emotionalism, that the brain can do a lot of things. Like, for example, and I include speaking in tongues as they do on that. I personally think that the greatest danger, and like I said, I made it very clear I love, you know, charismatic Catholics in so many ways, and I think they do a lot of great work for the church. I think they're a dying breed because people realize that's not really where, where things are going in the future. It is mostly boomers now who are charismatics. But I think that the biggest danger is what you said was the emotionalism, that your faith is very based upon emotional highs. I mean, it kind of influenced the whole, I mean, you know, Franciscan University of studentville is obviously a big part of this, the whole conference mode that came up in Catholicism, which was based in Protestantism, of, you know, youth conferences and all that stuff. And I've praised worship and, yeah, and I've honestly got away from that, like, with my own kids and just saying, like, I think, like, for example, we need to bring back, for example, pilgrimages. And I mean, like the shark pilgrimage. I mean. I mean, amazing. And there's a couple here in America I'm hoping to go to one this year with, like, my teenage daughter. Um, I think we should organize more. Like. I mean, it's an emotional experience. That's the thing. I'm not saying it's not, but it's just different than it's not intended to be. Like, in the sense of emotion's good. I mean, it can be good. It can be used for bad. It's not like evil. But if you're at, like, adoration quietly, you know, just an adoration at your parish and you have an emotional experience, like God touches you during adoration. And I've had this happen to me before where it's very emotional. There's nothing wrong with that. God's using your emotions. That's fine. Yeah, but weapon man geared towards emotionalism. It's geared towards kind of playing with your emotions. I think that's real dangerous. [00:45:38] Speaker B: Yeah, I've wept at the traditional mass. Right. And that's not geared towards emotion or anything. So but now what I'll also say is, I know Kennedy has that opinion. Right. But I also know the real Kennedy hall. [00:45:49] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. [00:45:50] Speaker B: Like, I know the real Kennedy hall. I know what he's doing. [00:45:52] Speaker A: Like, I, I have had people say they won't support crisis because we, we print Kennedy. I've had people stop donations because of Kennedy. And I just am like, fine, go ahead and do that. I don't cancel somebody like, you know, I think Kennedy is, is doing, like, I feel like everybody has a different role and people aren't all the same. And like, do I think, like, the way he says some things about the charismatic movement and how strongly he says it, do I agree completely with him? No. But at the same time, if we just kind of dance around it all the time and we're never willing to say, maybe it's not really the biblical speaking of tongues. Nobody's willing to even say that. Then somebody's got come in sometimes with a bulldozer and just say, listen, guys, you know, I, you gonna have to defend this because it does not seem to me, you know, the biblical way. So. But again, it's a tribalism. Like, oh, I. He's wrong on this, I think. So I. Therefore, I want nothing to do with him. And I just don't think that's. [00:46:52] Speaker B: Yeah, I think a lot of us need to, especially with the online stuff. It's because this is where you fall into tribalism the most, is online. And if somebody says something you did. And I've won people over because they think I'm being. Because I'm very bombastic on Twitter. [00:47:10] Speaker A: I always tell, really? [00:47:12] Speaker B: Don't judge me by my Twitter account. It's my alter ego. It's like I'm just out there trying to. [00:47:17] Speaker A: As you go to confession for it. [00:47:19] Speaker B: I've many times had to confess by Twitter. [00:47:22] Speaker A: Oh, geez. Can I just send you my Twitter feed and make it quicker? [00:47:27] Speaker B: I should actually. I should make a priest follow me. Well, Father Nick follows me. He called me out on two. [00:47:33] Speaker A: I've told my, I've told my pastor, you ever see anything I say or write publicly and you think it's ally, tell me. I'll take it down immediately. As Catholics, we need to have that. We need to have somebody who, you know, priest who's, who can say to you, you know, you just can't do that. And I'll be like, okay, I won't do it. [00:47:52] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. I had father nicks make me take one down today. So the. Yeah. And I, and I actually appreciate that, like, I always thought, I'm like, thank you for, you know, correct. And I'm always open to correction. But the thing is, if you just saw my tweets, you would think that's who I am. Where any time I've ever had an actual conversation with someone, like, like, you can see I'm just me being a little obnoxious. I don't really mean this stuff. I'm trying to get it. You know, we're giving these 280 character sound bites to get a reaction. I mean, every single thing we're tweeting, we're hoping for likes, we're hoping for attention. [00:48:28] Speaker A: Well, I also think that you just can't be nuanced. And I don't mean that in the Lofton way. I mean that in a real way. Like, I have tweeted often where I will write, I will write it out. It's longer than it, than I am allowed. I don't have the blue check mark. And then I have to cut it down. And so I, and I won't have any qualifications. Won't have any. And so immediately, and this is why I think when you read people's tweets, you should be charitable. Just like, I mean, we should be. We don't like when people do it to us. We shouldn't do it to others. But, like, they'll throw an exception out at me. Like, you're evil because you didn't. But I'm like, I don't have room to bring up every exception. [00:49:03] Speaker B: You are very good at every so often, hitting, hitting the mark and just setting off an exp I've seen. Because it's admirable when you do it, you will touch a nerve that will just set people into a frenzy. It's not every day, but when you do it, really, it sets the conversation for the day sometimes. [00:49:22] Speaker A: Yeah. And I, it is funny, I kind of, sometimes I know when I write something, I'm like, oh, this one's probably going to go a little bit crazy. But, like, I just tried, honestly, sometimes I just try to tweet things to hear, get people thinking about something. And I just feel like, though, and I get, I sometimes do get frustrated when people misinterpret. But one of the things I decided years ago was I cannot control how somebody else interprets what I say. If I've said it unclearly, then I will try to, like, if somebody, like, if I write something, somebody like, this just happened the other day, Father Nix. I wrote something about, like, not being, you know, I said I don't agree with everybody on this, this list of people, catholic people, and he was one of them. I was one of them. And like Archbishop of Gano and some other. And I was just saying I don't agree with all him, but, you know, I'm honored be on this list. And he was like, why are you distancing yourself from everybody before you say you're honored? And so I'm like, okay, I totally got that. He was legitimately, like, I saw how he could read that as my point. Like the way I wrote it, I could see why his first thought was, dude, what are you doing? Why? And I tried to explain to him, I'm just simply stating we're not in all lockstep agreement. We have a tendency in our culture that, you know, if you associate somebody with a group, then they believe everything you see that in the trad world. Like, I don't, I don't go along with a lot of, some of the trad things and so, but people just assume I do. So I explained it to him. Like, I don't problem with that, but. [00:50:44] Speaker B: Like, look, look at what happened with Strickland and Patrick Coffin. Like, Bishop Strickland agreed to just give a talk on Patrick Coffin's hope is fuel seminar and the next thing you know, he's getting an episode visit. Because, because Patrick Coffin holds the position that Benedict never validly resigned. Right, right. There really is a correlation between him agreeing to do that, that conference and the. [00:51:10] Speaker A: Well, because he said, though, remember what Strickland said? That's when he had the faint infamous tweet in conjunction with, you know, saying wise with Patrick Coffin, which was that, you know, Francis is sometimes opposes deposit of faith. I mean, say explicitly. I was shocked when I read him. I was like, a bishop just said that I got Bishop strong. No, no, I absolutely wasn't really like. [00:51:34] Speaker B: What is the synod on synodality if not a program to undermine the faith? I mean, that's right. That's the whole purpose of the sit on synodality. So he's, you know, he, it started with the conference with Patrick Coffin and then he got lumped in and he had to distance himself from Patrick Coffin a bit and it kind of, kind of put a damper on that conference for Patrick. But then after Strickland gets removed, now they just did a pilgrimage together. Right. [00:52:01] Speaker A: I thought it was kind of funny, that conference, because I got hammered by everybody because I supported the idea that you shouldn't. E. Michael Jones was one of the speakers and he was speaking on something pretty I don't know, whatever. Like Monday. Yeah, just prayer or something. I can't remember what it was. And I thought it was ridiculous that people were like, okay, now the whole world, you know, like. And so I said that and people freaked out because, like, you're defending an anti semite, blah, blah, blah. But then I also allowed Jant Smith, you know, to express her concerns that you, Michael Jones, which I share them, by the way. I don't think. I don't agree. You know, I don't like a lot of stuff he does, to be blunt. And so then I got hammered by E. Michael Jones and his crowd. So it was like, it was a nice, we're like, you know, everybody hate on me. That's great. But I just, I'm so allergic to cancel culture. [00:52:50] Speaker B: Okay. So the thing with E. Michael Jones is he's actually a very brilliant thinker. Right? So if you read logos rising, if you read Baron medal, if you read his books, he's a phenomenal writer, he's a phenomenal thinker. Then he writes the book jewish revolutionary spirit. And the backlash he got was similar to what Nick Fuentes went through. Now, I think when a person goes through a canceling like that, where they're just Persona non grata, they are not allowed to even speak in public anymore. That's it. They get yanked off every single platform. I think when something like that happens, there's two ways a person could go. One is apologize and placate the mob, and the other is just double down so hard. And on top of that, the Michael Jones thing I worry about is what we were saying earlier is seeing a jew behind every bush. You know what I mean? It's like, it's like, it's all you see now. Every, like, everything he talks about now is. Just revolves around this issue. And, and I understand you had to deal with some of the backlash from that. But, okay, we know what it is. It's, it's like, it's like saying that this group of people is behind the pornography. Right. It's like, sure. Nobody's forcing you to watch it, though. [00:54:09] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:54:09] Speaker B: Okay. There might have been a powerful group of people who got it into the, you know, into America, and they pushed this stuff. Nobody's forcing you to watch it. You are responsible for your own actions. You are not being forced to do anything. So you can't just lay the blame of something on a group of people when you have self control. [00:54:26] Speaker A: Yeah. And I, yeah, I just, honestly, I don't understand Emichel Jones, because, like, just he went after me because I was saying you shouldn't watch nude scene sex scenes. I mean, I thought that was. [00:54:38] Speaker B: Oh, yeah. [00:54:41] Speaker A: The other day, he was, like, saying, like, you shouldn't own a gun or something. Like, you know, just let the cops take care of your guy. So I was just like, yeah, so, okay, so you're right. [00:54:51] Speaker B: I forgot about that. Yeah, it was. It was over the. [00:54:54] Speaker A: And he actually says, because I'm pro Israel. That's why I was defending. [00:54:57] Speaker B: That's what I mean. He sees that as, like, it's a very strange thing. Right? Yeah. [00:55:03] Speaker A: I didn't. I never got that connection how I can be pro Israel because I was against nude sex scenes, but I. Whatever. I don't know. [00:55:10] Speaker B: Yeah. So. Yeah, so now you. You. It's. It's. It's all of these guys, right? So even with what I was saying about Kennedy, because I want to make sure I wrap that up. I know Kennedy in real life now. We hung out with him at the conference last summer, and, like, he wanted to go and meet Abby Johnson. Like, you. If you ever met Kennedy in person. [00:55:29] Speaker A: He'S, like, the nicest guy. [00:55:31] Speaker B: Nicest guy. [00:55:32] Speaker A: Like, totally. Like, I. I mean, he's just, like. I want to say the word gentle, but maybe people think that sounds gay, but are we allowed to say that? Um, but, like, the point is, is, like, he's just this genuinely nice guy. I mean, genuinely nice. [00:55:46] Speaker B: Yeah. To the point where, like, even I. Like, I saw him and Fred Simon got into it. Fred, like, Fred's all upset at him because, look, let Kennedy have his opinion. If you really do have this gift of tongues, then you have it, like, nothing to prove to Kennedy hall. [00:56:02] Speaker A: That's what I don't give is why people get so offended when, like, you touch. I guess because you're touching their idols. It's like, it's okay. It's not a matter. It's not a dogma of the faith, and so, therefore, it's okay to disagree. You know who else is, like, a super nice guy in person is Taylor Marshall. [00:56:19] Speaker B: Yeah. Oh, yeah, definitely. [00:56:21] Speaker A: I mean, just like, you know, he's got this person. I always laugh at the Persona people give him. Like, somebody was like, he was. Had that pic, that picture of him with Candace Owens, and somebody was like, I thought I couldn't think anything worse of Taylor Marshall, but now I can, or something like that. And I was just like, I mean, first of all, it's just so, like, catty and just so, like, effeminate and stuff like that. But also, it's like, you know, Taylor's just a good guy. I mean, yeah, I mean, and the thing is, I can say that. And of course now people be like, oh, he's just like a Taylor, Stan. He just agrees. Everything Taylor ever said. No, that's not the way it works. [00:56:54] Speaker B: First of, anybody that doesn't recognize what Taylor did for the traditional movement, I'm sorry. Yeah. Look, somebody asked me what was the most valuable advice somebody ever gave you, and I was going to post, like a silly quip about it, and I had to say, the most valuable advice anybody ever gave me was Taylor Marshall. In 2017, during Advent, he put out a challenge and he said, go to four consecutive latin masses was the challenge. It was advice, go to four consecutive. Don't just go to one and then not again. Go to four in a row. When I went to four in a row, it changed my life in a way I can't even describe. Like my entire life changed. It was going back to the novus ordo after that experience was like being a fish out of water. It was so alien to me. It was more alien to go back to the novus ordo than it was to go to my first latin mass. It was like, I felt like I went from Catholicism to Protestantism, and that's really genuinely how it felt. Now for, look, there may have been some things that Taylor did that I've disagreed with over time. I don't care. I'll always love the man for him giving me that advice and for the entertainment he's given me. [00:58:01] Speaker A: I've said this many times and I'll say it again, but I. The two people that always come up, when people come up to me and they say, this person really helped me. Scott, Hans, always first. [00:58:15] Speaker B: Oh, yeah. [00:58:15] Speaker A: And God bless the man and Taylor Marshall. Those are my two more. Yeah, and I hear that. I hear those two, and to me, that is proof of fruit. It doesn't mean everything. Every single podcast he's ever done has been a high quality, greatest thing. I mean, my, you know, I have some. I mean, obviously, like, this podcast of mine is gonna be a big, you know, Downer, but a big drop off from quality. But, you know, hey, but like, the point, though is like this, this kind of personality thing. And that's why one of the reasons I people might notice, like, I'm doing it here a little bit. But I actually try very hard to refrain from talking about other Catholics. [00:58:54] Speaker B: You're very good at that. I'm not. [00:58:56] Speaker A: And I try very hard because of the fact that I feel like it's not about the personalities, it's about the ideas. It's about the faith. And so sometimes people get mad. They're like, oh, you're. What's it called when you tweet about somebody but you don't say their name? [00:59:09] Speaker B: Oh, not quote tweeting. It's subtweeting. [00:59:14] Speaker A: Subtweeting. Okay. Yeah, people say that I'm doing that, but I'm not in the sense that, like, I'm afraid to tag them or something like that. No, it's more because I don't want it to be about them. I want to be about the idea. Usually I see it on multiple people before I say something. If one person says one thing, I'm not going to necessarily, but if I see multiple people doing it, I'm more concerned about, okay, the idea, let's talk about that than I am about. Because then it becomes, I'm on team Taylor or I'm on team Tim Gordon or I'm on team whatever. And it's like, no, we're on team catholic. And Taylor, by the way, is the first one to say that. And so it's like we need to, like, you know, kind of get away from those, those teams. And that's why I really try hard. I try, and I don't always succeed. And my wife will tell you, I don't do it often at home. Always at home. But the point is, I just don't see the purpose in criticizing other Catholics who. And I don't even do that, like, very often with, like, the progressive, like the pope. Like, yeah, I don't. I try not to name them by name either, because I don't want to make it about them either. I'm trying to make it about. [01:00:15] Speaker B: You're very good about that. Anthony Stein is very good about that. He publicly. Taylor's very good. I've seen people attack Taylor and never responds. [01:00:24] Speaker A: Find one time Taylor has ever even gone after a fellow catholic, like, like, just a regular catholic. He'll, of course, criticize Father James Martin or something like that. But I mean, like, just a Joe Catholic who goes after him. You can't find one. [01:00:37] Speaker B: Yeah, he doesn't do it. And it's like, even at the height of the drama between TNT splitting up, they were both pretty, pretty good about that stuff. It was Dave Gordon who wasn't great about it, but. Oh, man. [01:00:49] Speaker A: So I do think, though, that is kind of, you know, when we talk about, like, what's the response to tribalism in the church? I think that's part of it, is that we stop making things about personalities and make them more by ideas. Like we're criticizing in that way. Because if I come out and I say, you know, like, you know, I'll use somebody. Like, I know you and I both kind of know who he is. You know, if I come out and I'm going against Mike Lewis, who is. He's the guy who founded where Peter is, I should have a very good relationship with him for a very long time, and then it just kind of turned south. But I tried not to make it turn south, but it's like, if I. Going after him personally, I honestly don't see the real benefit of that. I'm not saying don't criticize him. And I. And don't criticize the ideas. I think a lot. Oh, is that right? [01:01:39] Speaker B: So I like Mike. Like, I think he's a nut. Don't get me wrong. [01:01:44] Speaker A: Point is, like, whether you like him or not, it's kind of irrelevant because what matters is, okay, I think he says some ideas that are. That are dangerous for the church. Okay? And so I'm going to criticize those, but I'm not going to go after him. Like, I really don't like it when people go after him and attack him. [01:02:00] Speaker B: And they say awful things, awful things. [01:02:02] Speaker A: About him or to him. I just feel like that's off limits. And I just don't see. I don't see, you know, the. How that does anything to edify people or bring people to Christ. I just think it's. It kind of reflects poorly on you. But, you know, I'm a boomer, so what do I know? [01:02:18] Speaker B: No, no, no. So I. But I. I think that's how I have managed to get a wide array of people on my show. It's because I don't. I try not to. Like, if I criticize somebody, it's usually in a humorous way. Like, I'll tease Trent about his evolution stance, or, you know, like, I try to. I try to make it like, oh, we had. We had Jimmy Aiken. We had. My friend does a phenomenal Jimmy Aiken impression, and we had him come on. And we did, like, a segment. [01:02:48] Speaker A: I don't know if I like that. I didn't listen to very much of it, but I was like, are you being good natured with that? [01:02:54] Speaker B: 100%. First of, the guy who did it adores Jimmy. [01:02:57] Speaker A: Okay. [01:02:57] Speaker B: 100%. So it was quite. [01:03:00] Speaker A: I had already planned. I had already gotten no Jimmy before you had did that. I didn't like you know, call him up after you did that. [01:03:08] Speaker B: What I was hoping for was I wanted Jimmy Aiken to debate my fake Jimmy Aiken on some nonsense topic. That's what I was going for. So, like, I kept trying to get Jimmy's attention because I wanted them to come on and debate, like, some nonsense topic, like, not even about catholicism, because my friend does a very good impression of him. You know, it was definitely meant in good humor. [01:03:29] Speaker A: Talk about a super nice guy. Oh, my God. Jimmy Aiken. [01:03:32] Speaker B: Yeah, that's. Now, I think Jimmy's takes on aliens and stuff like that. It's absurd, but I still think he's a great catholic apologist. [01:03:38] Speaker A: He's a great take on aliens. [01:03:40] Speaker B: Oh, man. He's out of his mind, I don't think. [01:03:43] Speaker A: You think he doesn't? He never said he definitely believes aliens exist. [01:03:47] Speaker B: No, I think. [01:03:50] Speaker A: I think he goes very clearly with what the church teaches, what's allowed. Now he does himself probably, you know, think it's more likely than maybe I do or definitely think you do, but, like, the whole, like, aliens can have to be demons is just stupid. And so he calls that out. [01:04:05] Speaker B: Yeah, I see. I see one. On one side you have him, and on the other side, you have Daniel O'Connor. Daniel Connor's like, absolutely cannot be aliens. And Jimmy. And I'm in the middle just kind of, like, I want to play with this idea. [01:04:19] Speaker A: On one side, he's saying there can be. He's not saying there are. Yeah, but anyway, Jimmy. I mean, actually, my issue with Jimmy is just in, you know, is just that I think he's too nice, but that's his role. Like, he won't, like, people get on him because he won't, like, publicly criticize Pope Francis like that. I honestly think. And I actually. My interview with them, check it out from a couple weeks ago, he goes into this a little bit in depth. He honestly just. I think it's like a southern gentleman type of thing with him, that you don't do a criticism like that. Now, the funny thing is, I'm saying I try not to criticize people. Of course I criticize Pope Francis, and I think he just is. Like, that's his personality, that he just thinks it's not proper to do that. And I think that's fine. Here's the thing. As long as what he says, if he says something, francis, you know, if he says, like, francis said this and he really didn't say, that's one thing. But if you're just not going to criticize him, that's okay. Because we all have our roles. Like, I'm not saying every single Catholic needs to get out and have a podcast where they criticize Pope Francis. I think that'd be unhealthy. You know? So I think there is something to be said for that, too. Like, as far as the tribalism go, recognize people's roles. Trent Horn's role is not the same as Taylor Marshall's. It's not the same as Peter Kwaz Neski's. And they're all different. And it's okay. There's nothing wrong with that. That they do things in a different way. [01:05:36] Speaker B: Do you? Because I still hold that it's a valid position to believe Francis is the pope and to try your best to be charitable to him. I mean, I don't. I still. [01:05:49] Speaker A: I mean, did you see what happened today with vegan o? [01:05:53] Speaker B: Yeah, that's. He's just going. [01:05:54] Speaker A: And so, like, I was just like, that got me. I mean, I don't. You know me. I don't get too, like, worked up on Twitter, but I just think if. [01:06:02] Speaker B: He'S gonna make an accusation, like, show proof of the accusation. [01:06:05] Speaker A: That's what I said, basically. Like, and I said, shut your mouth if you. If you. Because doing that is. And then having an AI generated picture and, like, somebody called me a pope splainer for that. Like, you don't know what Pope Splainer is. It doesn't mean that, like, every single. Like the. I said, the both. Both extremes are bad. When you think that every single thing that the pope says or does is the greatest, that's. That's unhealthy. If you think every single thing he doesn't. Doesn't. Says is awful and heretical and evil, that's just. I mean, that's just as bad. There's lots of people do it, but it's like. It's unhealthy outlook. I mean, so. Yeah, I'm with you on that, though. [01:06:39] Speaker B: I think the position I personally fall into lines up probably with Eric Ibarra the most. Eric Ibarra, you know, he. [01:06:49] Speaker A: Eric Ibarra is the man. [01:06:51] Speaker B: Yeah, he's got a very, very sobering take on it. [01:06:53] Speaker A: He's like, look, I wish I was like him. [01:06:56] Speaker B: He's clearly got, you know, some issues going on here, but I still think that the Holy Spirit is preventing Francis from going where he would want to go. You know? Like. Like, I do think if it was up to Francis, totally, he would go to an extreme. But I do think that the Holy Spirit is still guiding his church and preventing actual heresy from being brought in. You know, like, I do think he's made heretical thing, but it's not on paper in catholic doctrine. It's more just in praxis. And he's just, you know, it'll lead to heretical thinking, I guess. It's just I. You know what it is? The reason I tell everybody I'm a high school dropout so often is because I'm a high school dropout and I'm not a theologian, and don't ask my opinion on this stuff. I'm honest to God, just trying to do the best I can to live out my catholic faith. And I don't really care about this stuff anymore. I just. I'm just. I'm just gotten to the point where I just don't care anymore. I'll talk about things that are, like, big stories and stuff, but for the most part, I just don't care about. I'm just. The Francis fatigue I have is just. I just don't care. [01:07:59] Speaker A: Yeah, that was funny. Like, when he said that thing against conservatives, that 60 minutes interview, and we were all just like, whatever. [01:08:05] Speaker B: Yeah, that five years ago we would have been up in arms and we're going crazy now. I'm just like, yeah, of course. Of course he thinks. [01:08:11] Speaker A: Yeah, exactly. He's the 1960s priest. He's gonna say 1960s thing. So. Okay, boy, you. You were able to get me over my normal time. [01:08:19] Speaker B: I mean, I'm not the smartest guy, but I'm good at conversation. [01:08:23] Speaker A: Yeah, we all have our talents. We're not quite sure what yours are, other than yapping your mouth, but, you. [01:08:27] Speaker B: Know, God gave me the gift of gab. [01:08:30] Speaker A: So you're okay. So your podcast, avoiding Babylon. It's on. It's only on YouTube, right? [01:08:35] Speaker B: Like, no podcast platform. Yeah, we've been. We've been. So we do YouTube, and then we have, like, a bonus segment if anybody wants to go. Go to that. We do kind of like an after show where I share a little bit more personal stuff and things like that. Like, um, more. More things typically. More like, personal things about my family, like, ways that I've found to help keep my kids catholic, things like that. And, um. Yeah, so, I mean, that's generally what we do. So. Yeah, it's mainly on YouTube. We do. We do a couple other things, too, but that's generally it. [01:09:08] Speaker A: Okay, I'll. I'll put a link in. In this one so people can go to it. Yeah, I encourage you. If you. If you subscribe to this podcast, you're allowed to subscribe to avoiding Babylon. Don't subscribe to this podcast. You're not allowed to subscribe to avoiding Babylon. Because I get my numbers up, man. I mean, come on, let me get my numbers up. It is fun. Okay, just one last thing. Admit it. And I think you will probably will because usually do these things, it's always a temptation to title your episodes, to talk about topics, to get the YouTube numbers up. I mean, don't always 100%. I mean, and to act like it's not is just ridiculous. I've had numerous times where I'm debating, okay, what am I going to talk about? My own personal, like, my guests are usually, you know, that they're talking about their book or talk about whatever they want to talk about. But when it's my solo one, I'm always like, okay, what am I going to talk about this week? And that usually comes down to one, like maybe two things I'm thinking in my mind and I will know which one will bring more traffic. [01:10:07] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:10:08] Speaker A: But I have told myself that is not going to be the determining factor. It's going to be, which one do I think, you know is the best one for people to hear, you know, the church that. [01:10:17] Speaker B: Yeah, that'll prevent your show from growing for sure. [01:10:20] Speaker A: And it does. I mean, because like, it's like I've had, I mean, like this week actually was probably my most click baity topic I had, you know, the. Yeah, margo, I am the worst grifter ever, but I had the, you know, is Pope Francis becoming based and I knew that was a little bit of a clickbaity topic, you know, title, but I thought it was actually okay because I was actually talking about that wasn't like just. [01:10:41] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:10:42] Speaker A: And I think that feeling the love here in the comments, this is my. [01:10:48] Speaker B: This is just, this is my whole show. It's just people roasting me in the comments. [01:10:52] Speaker A: Exactly. So I think, though, the, the point is, is that we do have to be aware of that and there is a danger of that. And the funny thing is, like, if you. I usually end up picking the one that's not going to be as big of a. I think it's the more important one to talk about. [01:11:12] Speaker B: Well, can I give you, can I. [01:11:14] Speaker A: Give you different takes on the latest thing the pope says every single time he talks? [01:11:19] Speaker B: I'm going to give you an example of this. I had Joshua Charles on and he's great. He's amazing. So. But when I had him on him, he gave this flippant comment. We were talking about the Trent horn and James White debate, and he just offhandedly said the term low IQ Protestantism. And I titled the clip low IQ protestantism. And I put James White, and I put Gavin Ortland, and I put, like, all the Protestants in the video thumbnail, and I didn't ask. Josh Burst and I. He got so mad at me. He's like, I'm in that video. I'm hoping to have, you know, dialogue with these guys. You're gonna put me in a bad position. I'm like, josh, I'm sorry. So I wound up taking it down just to make sure Josh wasn't associated with it. And then two weeks later, we just did an episode called Low IQ Protestantism, and it got, like, six. [01:12:09] Speaker A: And I try very hard when I have a guest not to make it at all like that, because I want to respect them. And I try to make, you know, none of mine like that. But it is. It is a temptation. There's no. Because, you know, you know ahead of time what's going to hit. And so it's like, you can't always pick. I think it's okay to have provocative titles, but there's a. There's a line between provocative and. And clickbaity, and. And you're just trying to get people. [01:12:31] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:12:32] Speaker A: Amped up. So, I mean, seriously, all these Anthony people coming in, and they're, like, totally bringing down the level of the crisis podcast. [01:12:43] Speaker B: I told everybody, I go, guys, I hope my audience shows up and just roasts us the entire episode. But I think that's kind of what I think a lot of the reason people enjoy our show is because we. It's mostly just us laughing at our stupidity and, you know, things like that. So. And I. And they do give me a lot of leeway because they know I'm just a construction worker. So if I make a mistake, you know, I've said heretical things on accident before, and they all call me out for it, and they give me a little leeway because of my positioning. [01:13:10] Speaker A: That very good. Okay, Anthony, well, hopefully you say you're going to the CIC this year, right? [01:13:15] Speaker B: Go to the catholic identity conference. [01:13:16] Speaker A: I hope I'll be able to go to that. And so that'd be next time I see you, and you can annoy me and I can try to avoid you like we did. [01:13:23] Speaker B: I'm hoping you're gonna introduce me to some people while we're there, man. You're gonna be my wingman while we're there. [01:13:28] Speaker A: So, is that right. Who do you want to meet? [01:13:31] Speaker B: I don't know. You know what it is? I. Anybody that I don't know yet. [01:13:35] Speaker A: I gotta keep my reputation, dude. [01:13:38] Speaker B: My favorite part about the canceled priest conference was me. Like, that's where I met Michael Hitchbourne. I met doctor Kozhnevsky there. I met. I got to meet people that I never would have otherwise met. [01:13:46] Speaker A: It is the best thing about these conferences, meeting these people in real life. [01:13:49] Speaker B: Great networking opportunity, you know? So that's why I really enjoyed it. I'm hoping to open. Have another success. [01:13:55] Speaker A: Okay, so everybody subscribe to avoiding Babylon podcasts. If you don't have a brain. I mean, if. No, it's good stuff. They have some good stuff. And, you know, I think. I think you should subscribe to it. Even if they're passing me, you know, the. The. The student has become the master. [01:14:10] Speaker B: We're willing to go clickbait topics with you or not. [01:14:12] Speaker A: That's right, baby. I know I keep saying we're gonna finish, but I do remember at the beginning, your podcast, when you first start off, you're all like, oh, I'm gonna be just talking about, like, you know, spirituality and, like, the Catholic. I'm not gonna do the click. I'm not gonna be talking about Francis. And then boom, you got. You fell for it, dude. [01:14:31] Speaker B: And you're just helping it. It's. [01:14:32] Speaker A: You got the low iq prosthetism titles and stuff like that. I mean, come on. [01:14:36] Speaker B: The big story drops from Rome. Oh, boy. [01:14:40] Speaker A: Yeah, you. Yeah, you. You know, you. You were sucked in. [01:14:43] Speaker B: I am not. Yeah. I'm not beneath. Beneath. Grifting is not beneath me. I will say. I will. [01:14:47] Speaker A: Okay. Very good. See, you just gotta be. Gotta lean into it. Speaking of which, as we finish our fundraiser, crisis is go. [01:14:55] Speaker B: So you only do it twice a year. Guys, please go support Crisis magazine. They are my favorite catholic blog, I guess you call it. What do you get? [01:15:04] Speaker A: It's just online magazine. [01:15:06] Speaker B: Yeah, online magazine. [01:15:07] Speaker A: So, yeah, there we go. I'm gonna. I'm gonna clip that one, send it out to the world. [01:15:12] Speaker B: So maybe I'll submit an article to you. [01:15:14] Speaker A: Yeah, maybe I'll reject it again. [01:15:17] Speaker B: I think I got a little better idea of how to go about it this time. [01:15:20] Speaker A: Yeah, I gave you some advice. So there we go. Okay. Thanks, Anthony. I appreciate it, Eric. Okay. Until next time, everybody. God love.