The SSPX Mess: Where Do We Go From Here?

[00:00:02] Relations between the Vatican and Society of St. Pius X have deteriorated quickly. Today we're going to look at how we got to this point, if there's any path to reconciliation going forward. [00:00:26] Foreign Titled this podcast episode the SSPX Mess. [00:00:34] And I really do think it's a mess. I want to make sure first, before we even get started, it's clear when I say that I'm not necessarily pointing the finger at any organization, any person. I'm not placing blame or anything. I'm going to talk about that in this podcast where I think some false lie and some blame lies. But just calling it the SSPX Mess, I think is just, just the reality of what we're facing here. This is a big mess. [00:01:00] So before I get started though, with, with kind of detailing where we are now, I just want to kind of put my cards out on the table to get started and give my general feelings of my about my own views about the Society. [00:01:14] I'll be honest. For many years as a Catholic, I was very anti SSPX for the first, maybe almost 20 years as a Catholic, I did not attend a traditional Latin Mass and I, I felt like the SSPX was in schism. [00:01:29] I, I basically believed that. And I remember there was an SSPX chapel not too far from Washington, D.C. where I was living at for a while, and there was a family that went to that. And I thought, oh, that's not good news. [00:01:41] Now I will say though, after I started attending a fraternity, St Peter Parish, a number of years ago, this is probably about 15 years ago now, I did start to listen to some SSPX podcasts, read some of their. I read the biography of Archbishop Lefebvre and honestly, I started to realize, okay, these guys sound awful Catholic to me. But I'll be honest, the main thing I took away from Catholic kind of reading SSPX literature and, and listening to their podcasts is how moderate they are. [00:02:18] They have this image to the typical Catholic who's even aware of them as these radical crazies who are just really just beyond the pale. But if you listen to them, you realize they're, they're actually pretty moderate and reasonable. Especially you compare them to other trads and things like that, they come across as kind of the most reasonable trads. [00:02:39] Now that all being said, I haven't really changed my mind about the 1988 consecrations. We'll talk about that in a second. If you're not sure what I'm talking about. I will explain that in a minute. I still think they were a mistake. I don't think Archbishop Lefebvre should have done them. [00:02:55] I don't like, also I don't like their canonical status. [00:02:59] I think it's, I think it's a problem and I think some, most SSPX people attend that would kind of agree with that in general. [00:03:07] But I think it's a real problem that needs more work on the SSPX side, probably on their side to resolve it. [00:03:15] I don't think it should be brushed under the carpet like I think it is sometimes. [00:03:19] I also worry about a schismatic spirit. Yes, I know that term can be thrown around by everybody. I've been called that schismatic myself in spirit. [00:03:30] I do worry about that kind of developing in SSPX chapels, particularly among the laypeople who go there. [00:03:37] I don't think it's, I'm as worried about it with the priest, actually. [00:03:40] I'm worried about with members, not members, I'm sorry, with people who attend society chapels getting a schismatic spirit of thinking that they're kind of a parallel church that's outside kind of the, the wider universal church. [00:03:56] So as you can kind of tell, I have mixed thoughts on the Society. I am pro society in many ways. I'm not and I'm kind of got some concerns. So what you're going to hear here in this podcast is not going to be like rah rah society or the society is going to hell. I'm not going to do either. So if you're looking for one of those two things, go find somebody else's podcast. [00:04:22] What I'd like to do here is I really want to talk about the current situation and the mess we're in, like I said, and the way that potential ways that we can get out of it. So first let me just kind of explain where we are. I won't go into this incredible detail because what I would suggest is you go to Diane Montana's substack. She's a Vatican based reporter, one of the best, her and Ed Pinton, probably the best. [00:04:48] And she's been detailing what's been going on. She's been releasing everything. So I will link to her. In fact, I did link to her substack in the show notes. So just go to the Diane Montana's substack for a lot of the details I'm going to be talking about here. [00:05:02] But essentially what happened was on February 2nd, the Superior General of the Society of St. Pius X. I'm going to try to pronounce this name once and only once. Let me see. It's Father David. [00:05:17] I think I'm terrible. Pronunciations, everybody knows. But anyway, the Superior General of the Society, he announced that the Society of St. Pius X was going to consecrate new bishops on July 1. Now, why is this a big deal? First of all, note that this action is exactly what led to the excommunication of Archbishop Lefebvre, the founder of the Society, as well as the excommunication which were later lifted of the four bishops he consecrated. The four men he consecrated. This happened 1988. And the reason they were excommunicated is because under modern current canon law, you may not consecrate a new bishop without papal approval. That's it. And in fact, it's an automatic excommunication if you do this. Archbishop Lefebvre was aware of this and he did it anyway. John Paul II confirmed that, yes, they were excommunicated, and so that that was a big deal. Obviously, Pope Benedict in 2009 lifted the excommunications of the four men who were the four bishops. He obviously could not lift the excommunication of Archbishop Lefebvre because he was. Passed away. [00:06:24] So now, just to be clear, you might, as a Catholic, not really familiar with the Society, you might think to yourself right now, okay, why would they do this if they know it's automatic communication? What kind of Catholic would do an action they know automatically excommunicates himself? Well, the defense, and I would suggest I have a podcast. I interviewed one of the spokesmen for this society, this is probably two years ago, called the Status of the sspx, where I kind of detail this with him. [00:06:51] But essentially their defenses, and this is a very nutshell version, is that we are in a state of emergency in the Church. It's a state of necessity where the crisis is so great in the Church that certain human based laws, like the one in which you have to have papal approval to consecrate bishops, by the way, that is a human law, because most of Church history, that was not required, but it is required today. [00:07:17] And so they would say that even in canon law, it states that in cases of necessity, certain emergency actions can be taken. [00:07:26] I mean, it's not exactly the same, but it's similar to the idea that you want to have a priest baptize your child. However, if you're at the hospital and the baby's born, all of a sudden it looks like the baby's dying. You go ahead and baptize that child. And it's a valid baptism because it's an emergency. [00:07:42] And so therefore, the Society would essentially say, because of the state of emergency, we're in the Church, that the crisis is so bad that they feel it was necessary to consecrate these bishops. And the reason they're saying now they need to consecrate more is because they haven't consecrated any bishops since 1988. [00:08:02] And of the four who they consecrated, two of them have already died, and the other two obviously are not. I don't know their exact ages, but if they're consecrated in 1988, they had to be at least in their late 20s, early 30s. That's almost 40 years ago. They're getting up in age as well. And so obviously it's possible at some point they will pass. They will, we all know, will one day pass away, but it could happen sooner rather than later. And this would be a problem for the Society because they would have to do. [00:08:29] Who would do their confirmations? Who would. Who would ordain their bishops? I mean, I'm sorry, who would ordain their priests? [00:08:34] They need bishops. So the argument goes, in order to continue to ordain priests and to have consecrations and basically have a organizational structure. [00:08:45] And so that's why they announced, we're going to consecrate bishops. This is a big deal when they announced this. And it was such a big deal that the Vatican decided that they would have a meeting between Cardinal Fernandez, who is the head of the diascorry of. Of Doctrine, the. The chief doctrinal officer, and he would meet with the Superior General of the Society on February 12. So one thing to note here is that the Society had not really met with the Vatican since 2019, so almost seven years ago. [00:09:22] And the Society claims they've been. They've been asking for meetings, they've been wanting. Meeting with the Holy Father, they've been wanting me, you know, to discuss these things. And basically nothing has happened. [00:09:32] Then all of a sudden they announced to the world, we're going to consecrate new bishops. And they get a meeting in 10 days. [00:09:37] I think that tells us something kind of about how the Vatican's viewing this. [00:09:41] It shows a certain. [00:09:44] I mean, a certain attitude from the Vatican that was they weren't really taking it seriously until all of a sudden this happened. [00:09:50] And so the. They had a meeting, the Superior General of Society and Cardinal Fernandez had a meeting on February 12th. After that meeting, Cardinal Fernandez announced that the Vatican was open to a doctrinal dialogue with the. With The Society and a couple points he mentioned were on the divine will and the plurality of religions. If you remember, there's a document from Pope Francis that made it seem like God wills a plurality of religions, which of course is heresy, if you believe, if we're talking about God's direct will, not his permissive will. [00:10:26] And also another topic would be what is meant by a religious submission of mind and will which is found in Vatican ii, talking about our attitude towards the Pope. [00:10:35] And then also Fernandez mentioned what level of adherence is required for Vatican II documents. Obviously a big bone of contention between the Society and Vatican officials. [00:10:45] So he said, yes, the Vatican be happy to meet with the Society about these issues and have a spirited dialogue on them. [00:10:54] However, he also said, and this is the important point, he said, they have to call off the consecrations or else we're not going to talk to them. [00:11:04] Says the Holy See reaffirm that the ordination of bishops without the mandate of the Supreme Pontiff, who possesses ordinary, supreme, universal, immediate and direct power, would constitute a decisive rupture of ecclesial communion schism. Those are his words, with serious consequences for the fraternity as a whole. The Fraternity, by the way, the official name of this, what we call society, is the Fraternity, but I'm just calling the Society so people don't get confused with the Fraternity of St. Peter. [00:11:31] Therefore, the possibility of undertaking this dialogue presupposes that the fraternity suspend the announced episcopal ordination. So basically kind of came out firing. He said, yeah, we'll talk to him, but they cannot. They have to cancel the consecrations. They have to, they have to suspend the idea of. And we're not going to do that. We first have to have dialogue. [00:11:51] And so that was the, that was what the Vatican's position was. [00:11:56] The Society had initial response where they just said, okay, we'll take this in consideration. We'll get back, we'll make an announcement here soon. And so that's what they did. And on. I, I think it was on the 19th of February, there was an official response from the Superior General of the SSPX to this dialogue. [00:12:15] And it was feisty. I mean, okay, all these documents, all these announcements, they're always done in this diplomatic language where it's, you know, we appreciate it, you know, fraternal fraternity, blah, blah, blah. But if you. I've read enough of these, you know, kind of how to read between the lines and kind of what the attitude is. And honestly, I felt like this was a very feisty kind of fiery letter written by the Superior General of the Society to Fernandez, he starts off near the beginning. He says, I can only welcome the opening of a doctrinal discussion as signaled today by the Holy See, for the simple reason that I myself proposed it exactly seven years ago in a letter dated January 17, 2019. [00:12:58] At that time, the Diascorie did not express interest in such a discussion on the grounds present orally that doctrinal agreement between the Holy See and The Society of St. Pius X was impossible. [00:13:08] So he just goes right out at the beginning and says, listen, I've been asking for a doctrinal discussion for seven years. [00:13:15] The Holy See said, no, that's not possible. Then I say, I'm going to consecrate some bishops. And then he wouldn't. Obviously, he's just a priest. He probably would be one of the bishops consecrate, I would guess. [00:13:25] And now all of a sudden, they're like, yeah, let's have a doctrinal discussion. It does. [00:13:29] It's easy to perceive this, I would say, as a delaying tactic by the Society that they just want to push off. They don't want to deal with the consecrations. They don't want it. They just want. And so they're just. They just. They're throwing out the doctrine of discussion as a way to push things off. [00:13:45] It does seem like that. In fact, that was the big complaint of Archbishop Lefebvre in the 1980s, was that then Cardinal Ratzinger, who was in the same position as Cardinal Fernandez, is now. Please God. Fernandez never becomes Pope like Ratzinger did. [00:14:00] But basically, Lefebvre's major complaint was, they're stringing me along. They're stringing me along every time I asked for a date where I can do the consecration. Because the Vatican never said to Lefebvre initially, you can't do them ever. They said, let's do it right. We will prove the men. We will set the date, and all that stuff. And then they kept stringing along until finally Lefebvre just said, okay, I'm just doing it. [00:14:22] And so that seems like what the Vatican is doing now. I mean, we're reading tea leaves here a little bit, but I can understand why the Society, at least, would think that. [00:14:33] And then the Superior General Society goes on to say, one cannot ignore the context of the dialogue proposed today. [00:14:41] We've been waiting for seven years for a favorable response to the proposal of doctrinal discussion made in 2019. [00:14:48] More recently, we have written twice to the Holy Father, first to request an audience, then to clearly and respectfully explain Our needs and the real life situation of the Society. [00:14:57] So, I mean, it's obvious. The Society is like, we're fed up. [00:15:01] I think it comes across the way to write this. We're just fed up that we're just, we have not gotten any communication. We just get ignored. We've been ignored for years. We've been trying to open up dialogue. I mean, this, remember under Francis particularly, and also you see it under Leo, the push has been dialogue, dialogue, dialogue. We will dialogue with everybody on the peripheries. [00:15:26] The Society is like, okay, great, can you please dialogue with us? We ask repeatedly and no, no, no, no, no. [00:15:34] And so ultimately what they said was they're going to reject. They reject the Vatican's proposal and they're just going to continue and do the consecrations on July 1st. [00:15:44] Now, there's one thing in that letter that the Society sent out that I think was important that I didn't see a lot of people talk about. [00:15:52] They basically said, we're never going to come to agreement with the Vatican doctrinally. [00:15:58] Here's a quote from the announcement. We both know in advance that we cannot agree doctrinally, particularly regarding the fundamental orientations adopted since the Second Vatican Council. [00:16:09] This disagreement for the Society's part does not stem from mere difference of opinion, but from a genuine case of conscience arising for what has proven to be a rupture with the tradition of the Church. This complex knot has unfortunately become even more inextricable with the doctrinal and pastoral developments of recent pontificates. I think that's pointing a big finger, of course, at Pope Francis. [00:16:32] That's a huge claim. Basically, they're saying, is science like, no, I'm sorry, it just. What you guys are teaching there, we don't accept. I mean, it's essentially saying that this, that the Vatican is espousing so much heresy lately and so much since Vatican II that we can't even have a discussion about this. It's like, you. What you, it's like how traditionally Catholics would deal with maybe non Christians. You don't have a dialogue with an atheist in the sense of let's. You proclaim the gospel to them, you try to convert them. And I feel like that's kind of what the Society is saying here. [00:17:10] I'm sorry, we just, we can't have this discussion with you guys because we're not even on the same page on, on page one. [00:17:17] And so we feel like we gotta convert you people. We just need to proclaim the gospel and hopefully you guys will come along. And convert. That's a pretty radical statement. [00:17:25] That's a pretty radical statement. They're saying. [00:17:28] What's ironic, of course, is Vatican II has been promoted as not a doctrinal council. I mean, Pope Paul VI said that himself. It's not a doctrinal council. Yet the Vatican's even acknowledging, and the Society acknowledges that the issues are doctrinal in nature and they stem from Vatican ii. Now, of course, we can debate the minutiae, whether or not it's back into itself or the documents were after what happened afterwards. I think the Society would say there's some documental document problems with the documents, but of course, definitely lots of problems that happen afterwards. I mean, like Fernandez even said, one of the first issues that you're talking about was does God will plurality of religions. That, of course was not stated back in two, but it was stated by Pope Francis in a document just a few years ago. [00:18:12] So you can see why they're at an impasse. You can really see why. [00:18:18] I mean, the Society goes on to say this dialogue is supposed to clarify the interpretation of the Second Vatican Council, but this interpretation is already clearly given in the post conciliar period and the successive documents of the Holy See. [00:18:31] This is something I've been saying for years, like there's a whole debate among conservative Catholics who aren't traditional. They will say, oh, it's just the spirit of Vatican ii. The documents are okay. What matters is the interpretation. [00:18:44] But what, what the Society is saying, and I would agree with this point that there is an official, authoritative interpretation of the documents and that's how the Church has lived its life since the Council ended. That's the official interpretation. And the Society saying, we don't accept that. We don't think that's a good. We don't think that's, that's good. [00:19:04] So, you know, another thing they say is they, that the Vatican, he says they always want to listen and understand nonstandard, complex, exceptional in particular situations, but they're not willing to listen to the SSPX really. [00:19:17] And so I feel like in a certain sense the, the Society is kind of, you know, washing their hands clean of the Vatican, the current Vatican. They're wiping the dust off of your feet, whatever metaphor you want to use. They just don't think there's anywhere we, they can go. I think they're probably hopeful that maybe them announcing consecrations would get Pope. Leo may say, okay, let's have a real discussion here. [00:19:42] But I think the Society is like, it's clear they don't obviously having Fernandez as your point man is a problem. I mean, he's the point man because the head of the, the Doctrine of Faith, the ASKRI Congregation, whatever, of the doctrine of Faith, that's been the point man in for decades. That's why Ratzinger was the point man. But Fernandez being there's a real problem because Fernandez himself is so problematic. At least with Ratzinger, you knew you had somebody who appreciated the tradition in the Church, even if you had disagreed with him on how he interpreted it. [00:20:11] With Fernandez, you can't even know if he believes. I mean, he probably rejects the tradition of church in a lot of ways. So it's a problem. This is a real mess. I don't see, humanly speaking, I don't see how you can see any type of solution to this impasse. [00:20:26] Now after this came out, after the Society said we're going to go ahead with the consecrations, forget it, you know, we're just going to do it. [00:20:33] Two very respected cardinals spoke out, Cardinals Mueller and Cardinal Seurat. Now, Cardinal Mueller is important because he was the point man for a while because he was the head of Doctrine of Faith. And so he's been appointment. In fact, they mention him kind of negatively in their response. [00:20:49] Both of them, basically, both Mueller and Seurat both said they urged the sspx. Their whole message was directed towards the Society and said, don't do the consecrations, don't do them. Cardinal Seurat in particular, if you look at what he wrote again on Diane Montagne's substack, he actually suggested that their salvation could be in jeopardy, that they could be potentially outside the Church if they did this. I don't think he said it explicitly, but he suggested that both of them, though, emphasize the importance of obedience. Cardinal Seurat in particular emphasized the importance of obedience, that you can't say you're Catholic. You can't go around saying, hey, we have the fullness of Catholic faith, but then you don't even obey the Pope because that is part of being Catholic is obeying the Pope. And there's a certain completeness to that argument. I mean, that argument can make sense and a lot. And I think if you see a lot of critics, I'm not talking about the kind of wackadoodle, progressive Catholic people. I'm talking about conservative Catholics, good, good, solid Catholics who are anti sspx. That's basically the argument in a nutshell, is what Seurat said. So I recommend you read it. That basically saying, listen, I get that you practice the faith the way the church has always practiced it, you know, for, for thousands of years. I respect that. [00:22:06] But part of that is obeying the Pope and you're not obeying the Pope and even kind of suggests, yeah, we know there's problems with the, with the, the Vatican and we know there's problems in the church today, but you just simply can't solve them by going and disobeying the Pope. That's the crux of the argument. [00:22:25] So now then there was a response. So that's the response. And by the way, I have high respect for both Cardinals Mueller and Sarah, especially Seurat. I'm, you know, as if you watch this podcast, you know, I'm reading his book the Power of Silence. It's one of the best books ever read in my life. It's dramatically impacted my life. I think it's great. [00:22:44] But then, but I don't agree completely with what they said is what I'm trying to say. But then Bishop Athanasius Schneider, he then has, has weighed in. In fact, just today, this morning, again on Diane Montanya's substack, she posted it. He, he posted a response. Now because it's from Bishop Schneider. I might, said Archbishop, I'm sorry, Bishop Schneider. [00:23:08] It was charitable and reasonable, as always. It was the best response so far. As always. I mean, you can count on Bishop Schneider to be like this. [00:23:17] What I, what I appreciate about it was in this, in this relationship between the Vatican and the Society, everybody seems to only focus on the vat. I'm sorry, on the Society's obligations, on their responsibilities. They need to obey. They need to obey and they need to obey. [00:23:36] But there's nothing being said about the Vatican's responsibilities. [00:23:39] Think about, if you're talking about a father son relationship, which is what we should have with the Holy Father, if you're talking about a father son relationship. [00:23:47] If I just, all I talked about was my son's responsibilities to obey me. My son's out of the house now, so he doesn't have to do that like he did when he was a kid. But the point is, let's say when he was a kid, he has to obey me, has to do whatever I say, you know, all that, okay, it's all might be true, but if we just ignore my responsibilities as a father, to care for him, to take care of him, to guide him, to be charitable when he falls, all these different things that as a father I'm responsible to do, then that seems very one sided. And what I Like about Bishop Schneider's response is he doesn't do that. He talks about the Vatican's responsibilities as well and he sees it very differently than Cardinal Seurat and Cardinal Mueller. [00:24:32] He says it would be a tragedy if the Society of St. Pius X were completely cut off and the responsibility for such a division will rest primarily with the Holy See. I mean, he actually says it'd be the Holy See's fault if that happened. The Holy See should bring the Society in, offering at least a minimum degree of church integration and then continue the doctrinal dialogue. The Holy See has shown remarkable generosity towards the Communist Party of China, allowing them to select candidates for bishops. Yet her own children, the thousands upon thousands of faithful of the Society, are treated as second class citizens. That's a zinger. I mean, you know, if you know Bishop Schneier, you know how reserved he is and how diplomatic and kind he can be. But boy, when he, when he hits, he hits hard. And he was like, you're letting the Communists basically consecrate bishops and pick who, who's consecrated and you're not going to let the Society it is, the hypocrisy is pretty obvious there. [00:25:27] So what he's saying basically is Bishop Schneider is bring them in first, regularize their canonical status, then have the doctrinal dialogue. And he explicitly asked Pope Leo in his letter, he explicitly asked him to approve the consecrations to say just yes, you can do the consecrations. [00:25:46] So this is obviously very different. Now note that Bishop Snyder was actually appointed by Pope Francis at one point to be like, I can't remember what the title was, like an observer of the Society. Like there was a Vatican thing where they went to the Society and observed and stuff like that. And Bishop Schneider was appointed that, so he knows the Society very well. I mean he's probably more knowledgeable than any Catholic bishop alive who's not a member of the Society. [00:26:11] And so what he says I think really matters a lot. [00:26:15] So here we are. I mean, where are we? [00:26:20] It's a mess. Like I said, it's one that's been building for decades. This is not something that has happened overnight. Obviously it's been happening since at least 1988. But then obviously I, I, I perceive that there's been a growing frustration from the, the side of the, the Society over the past seven years because they've got not gotten a response from the Vatican to repeated requests for discussion and dialogue. And I can see them saying, okay, we're just going to have to do this because if you don't hear from your father, eventually you have to move forward with or without his permission. [00:26:56] If you don't hear from your father, eventually you just say, well, I got to, I got to do what I think is best. And that's essentially what happened. I will say that no one should be happy about this situation. Nobody should be like saying, oh yeah, Psy, stick it to him, or Vatican, stick it to him. [00:27:10] I do think there's fault on both sides. I don't think it's just all one sided. [00:27:15] I do think it's more on the Vatican side, but I do think it's. I don't think we should be completely like The Vatican's the 100% bad guy here. This society is pure and driven. [00:27:25] Pure as white as snow. [00:27:29] I do want to say, though, let's just talk about Episcopal consecration real quick without paper approval, how big a deal this is, because I've noticed that a lot of modern Catholics, they act like this is one of the worst sins ever committed in the history of the world. This is like basically shaking your fist at God and saying, I will not submit. [00:27:49] But if you look historically, it's not that big a deal. [00:27:53] I mean, like I said in history, a lot of episcopal consecrations happen without approval of the Pope. And number of them have happened with the expressed disapproval of the Pope. But they still win and they still happen beyond just Lefebvre. And it wasn't like they were excommunicated because again, it was only modern canon law that made it an excommunicatable offense. I'm pretty sure 1970. Yeah, 1917 canon law did, and I know 1983 did as well. [00:28:18] And so I'm not saying it doesn't matter. I'm not saying that disobeying a canon law is no big deal. However, I do think, and I've talked about this on this podcast time and time again, I've written about Crisis magazine and Peter Kwesniewski has a great book called True Obedience that you should pick up about this. I really just think that Catholics have a warped idea of obedience. [00:28:40] I think conservative Catholics in particular have this. Progressive Catholics of course don't because they don't obey if they don't agree. [00:28:47] But good, faithful conservative Catholics who I do think are well intentioned and you know, are orthodox in so many ways, in most ways they really do elevate blind obedience to canon law and to the Pope as like the top virtue of all virtues and that nothing else matters. [00:29:06] This is not a historic, traditional Catholic understanding It is a early 20th century and even it really started developing after the Protestant Reformation, you see, with the Jesuits and everything like that. And it was in response to the Protestant Reformation, frankly, before the Protestant Reformation, things were a lot more loosey goosey in the church. I mean, if you look at the history in the medieval times, especially in the early church as well, you see, there wasn't like this top down organizational structure of the church in the sense of where everything was running, like, you know, the trains running on time. I mean, obviously we always had the Pope, we always had the bishops. I'm not saying there wasn't a hierarchy, there always was a hierarchy, but how things were kind of run on the ground. [00:29:46] You know, bishops did this, bishops did that, the Pope might approve, the Pope might not really care for it, whatever. And you just, it just happened. [00:29:53] It really was after the Protestant Reformation and understandably so. [00:29:57] I mean really, I know it started Gregory VII in the 11th century. You really see it starting there. And, but like, I really feel like it went into overdrive after the Protestant Reformation because there's this idea, okay, we really need to emphasize you need to obey the Pope. We need to, we need to get all our ducks in a row. We can't have this loosey goosey way of running things anymore because look what happened. We have the Protestant Reformation. They're crazy. We, we need to crack down. [00:30:21] And so obedience became the virtue of virtues, the only one that mattered in a lot of ways. [00:30:27] And so like, you know, Cardinal Seurat, he mentions the example of Padre Pio, which is always the example mentioned of him obeying, even though, you know, it was unjustly. That's not, I'm sorry, I super respect for Carlo Schirard, but that is not the only example in church history that we should look to. [00:30:43] If you look at St. Thomas Aquinas, for example, he explicitly talks about that nobody, not one human being, deserves our blind complete obedience. Only God deserves that. There were all. There could always be situations that, in which you don't obey a command from a legitimate superior. [00:31:03] There can always be situations like that. [00:31:05] And we might just say, oh, it's only if they command something immoral. I mean, but then you get in some gray areas here of what exactly is immoral. And I know we're getting down a slippery slope that can be very dangerous. This is one of my concerns about the society. [00:31:19] But at the same time I do want to put this in some proper perspective, that blind obedience to can law is not the virtue of virtues, is not the Only thing that matters in. In being a good Catholic. [00:31:32] Yes, we do want to OBEY Canon law 99 times out of 100. 999 times out of a thousand, probably 9 million. Whatever. You know, most of the time, the vast majority of time, we don't, like, just flippantly discard it. Canon law is there for a reason, yet it's not. It's not the ultimate only law. Canon law itself states that the. The supreme law is a salvation of souls. And it makes it clear that there can be situations in which you don't obey a specific canon for a greater reason. [00:32:07] Okay, and then the other thing I want to say is now let's look at both sides, the Vatican and the sspx. [00:32:14] I mean, I think it's pretty clear the Vatican's been horrible at this, at their relationship with the sspx. [00:32:19] Not under Pope Benedict. I think they were pretty good. Pope Francis, I think not. I mean, he did some good things with the Society. I mean, he grants him faculties for confession, marriages, things like that. But in general, it looks like he just decided in 2019, I'm not going to talk to him anymore. [00:32:35] And Pope Leo has not been there for yet, not even a year. But it does seem that he's continuing that. I mean, he did okay. So I was one who was saying when Pope Leo was first elected, give him some space, give him some time. It's not like on day one, he should be calling up the Society and say, hey, let's have a meeting. [00:32:49] But I would say it would have been nice after eight months if he would at least had somebody schedule a meeting with the Society, maybe even months off. But just say, listen, guys, let's have a meeting. I know we haven't talked in seven years. Let's have a meeting and maybe we'll schedule it for the summer, whatever. [00:33:08] But he didn't. And I think that that says something. Again, going back to my last podcast, live podcast, and I think exemplifies how many. The Vatican doesn't really care that much about traditionalist concerns. Not in the sense of, like, oh, we don't care about you. More like, it's just not on the radar. And so I just honestly think that's what happened. Eventually the Society is like, we need to get on your radar. We want to be on your radar. [00:33:34] And so the Vatican has not. I personally think the Vatican has not been charitable towards the Society. I also think, by the way, a lot of the commentators who, like, rail in Society, and I mean, Bishop Schneider deals with this as well. In his letter. And he's absolutely right. I think they've been incredibly uncharitable. Like, oh, if they don't, they're just a bunch of folk and, you know, traditionalists, if they don't submit, then they're clearly not Catholic. Kick them out. We don't want anything to do with them. [00:33:55] That is not how our Lord, I think, would have treated them. I don't think that's how our Lord would treat them. I think it's very uncharitable. [00:34:01] And frankly, the Vatican, the way the Vatican treats society is very contrary to their whole talk of dialogue, of going out to the peripheries and everything like that. [00:34:10] I mean, there's. [00:34:12] The society has a reason to distrust the Vatican. There's a long history there. This isn't just all of a sudden, they decide yesterday, hey, let's have some consecrations. Oh, the Vatican doesn't allow. Ah, screw them. [00:34:22] No, there's a long history. [00:34:25] That being said, I do think the society should have given Pope Leo more of a chance. I get that their bishops are getting older, and I get there's a certain sense of urgency on their part. [00:34:40] However, I would say that I don't even have a big problem with their announcing the consecrations because that seemed to be the only way you could get their attention. You know, get dad's attention as you do something naughty. You know, like a kid, his dad's absentee and not really paying attention. Maybe he like work. He's a workaholic and he never home. When he is home, the kid acts out. [00:35:01] You do that because you want to get the dad's attention. So it is somewhat like that. I don't even blame them for that. But I do think they shouldn't have been so quick to just say, well, we're just going to consecration, we're not going to talk to you. I get why they did, but I don't think they should have done that. I think they should have said, okay, let's have this discussions now. They could have said, we will have these discussions, but there's a time limit on them. [00:35:23] We're not going to just push off and punt on the consecrations forever. [00:35:27] But I do think it would have shown at least a little bit of being the bigger man and saying, okay, we're going to go. We're going to at least try your way for a little while before we go ahead with the consecrations. [00:35:40] So what does this all mean? Does this mean that after the consecrations, if they happen on July 1st without approval that the society is in schism. That's been a big debate. I don't think they've been in schism. I don't think that would put them in schism, because I do think that, and I'm not gonna go all the details of that. I do think, though, there's some problems here, though, because first of all, what happens to Francis's declaration? They have faculties for confessions and marriages. [00:36:07] Would that be taken away? My guess is it would. And then we have a real issue because then there's the debate. I know society people would say the confessions have always been valid because of, you know, emergency jurisdiction, all that necessity, but I do think it, it's a reason to have a qualm of conscience going to a society priest for confession. If that was the case, I, I know I would and I could. I think it's reasonable too. And so one of the questions you have to ask is, you know, can a Catholic attend an SSPX chapel, a mass, SXP chapel after the consecrations? [00:36:44] Obviously, I know all the society people are going to say, of course you can. We've been doing it, we're going to keep doing it. [00:36:50] I don't know. [00:36:51] I mean, I don't attend SSPX Chapman. I have no plans to attend. I've never attended one. I don't plan to ever attend one. Not that I'm like, oh, I refuse to go in one of those buildings or something like that, but more like I just think there's other options, there's better options. [00:37:05] And so I wouldn't recommend it. [00:37:07] I do think ultimately comes down to conscience, like chapel. [00:37:13] Judge them as bad cats, Judge them as the church, Judge them as ism. [00:37:20] Honestly, I know are full good who are trying to live out the. And raise families in the faith. I'm not going to sudden, you know, tell, oh, what you're doing is immoral, is it's a sin. But at the same time, I'm not going to recommend it. I just. I just can't. I just feel like, whereas I'm not so like blindly saying obey Canal, obey Cannon law, stuff like that, I do think there are options, other options in the church. And so that's why I would say I wouldn't personally attend a society chapel. [00:37:56] And I when somebody asked me, do you recommend? I'd say, no, I wouldn't recommend against it, but I'm not. Wouldn't recommend for it. Yes, I know I'm kind of straddling the fence here, but that's how I feel about this. Issue. So. [00:38:05] Okay, well, let's go ahead and jump in the live chat. I saw a bunch of chats flying through here, which I appreciate, by the way. Everybody coming on, coming in on Tuesday afternoons, enjoying the live chat. Let me put up a few here for us. August TV123 says he's a regular viewer, and I appreciate that. [00:38:20] Has the SSPX ever said why they need their own bishops? Isn't that unusual? Do the FSSP have their own bishops? I think the reason is simply because they need to ordain their priest. And it's unlikely that regular bishops, for lack of a better term, would do ordinations for them, whereas they will do. There are bishops who will do ordinations for the fraternity. [00:38:42] I will say this also. The fraternity was kind of told early, in its early days, after the 1980 break, everything, they would get bishops, and they never have. And I think the Society sees that, and it's like, well, you said the fraternity would get bishops. They haven't. [00:38:57] So I think the Society is basically thinking they can't ordain bishop. They can't ordain their priests, new priests or seminarians if they don't have their own bishops, because there are probably not enough bishops, any bishops in the world who would ordain them for them. So that. And even if there was a couple, they could die out. It's a very precarious situation for them if they don't have their own own bishops. [00:39:19] Okay, the good fight. Tony L. Says, doesn't it seem like a valid interpretation of emergency or grave circumstances? That's the whole debate. [00:39:27] That's. Do you think that today's crisis in the Church raises to a level of an emergency in grave circumstances in which you need to disobey canonical law, or do you not think it raises that level? That's. That's the whole discussion right there. [00:39:43] And I honestly can see both sides. I mean, I definitely think we're in a crisis. I run Crisis magazine, of course I think we're in a crisis. [00:39:49] But do we raise to a level where we're just doing things like disobeying, you know, canon law explicitly like this on something this serious? [00:39:57] I don't know. [00:39:59] Patriot Pooh Bear says not to be disrespectful to Carlos Ra, who has been brutalized by the previous Pope. He wrote a statement I feel didn't really address the issues except submit to Rome. [00:40:09] Patriot Pooh Bear. I agree. I love Cardinal Seurat, and I think he was treated horribly by the last pontificate. I I agree with you completely. I think he's a holy man. I think he's a very good man. He's one of our best bishops. But I was disappointed in the statement, too. I really felt like it was just like, submit to Rome. Okay, but why don't we discuss. So why there's a problem then, if we're gonna say? Because it's like, you wrote the book Power of Silence. So it's like, I understand being silent, but he's not being silent here. [00:40:39] But he is saying something. So if you're going to say something, wouldn't you want to say something about the Vatican's role here? [00:40:47] Female Casey Rose fan says Mark Lambert was being annoying in the Catholics Unscripted live stream, so he decided to come over here. [00:40:54] Well, Mark's a good guy, but I appreciate you coming. Why did you come here first? Come on, Come on. [00:41:00] I'm disappointed in you. I mean, come on, we're both baseball fans. No, that's fine. I don't feel any sense of competition with other podcasters at all. Catholics Unscripted is great, you know, good stuff. But, yes, I'm sorry he was being annoying, though, about this. [00:41:15] The love of wisdom says Francis himself said that the Abu Dhabi statement does not deviate one millimeter from Vatican ii. Yeah, I mean, what Pope Francis says in interviews and stuff like that doesn't really mean a whole bunch. So Phoenix XP said 1922, 1992 says Schneider's the only one who sees through the eyes of a show, through the eyes of a shepherd of souls. He really does have the shepherd's heart. He really does have a shepherd's heart. Bishop Schneider does, and you can just tell it just exudes from. I'm hoping, by the way, to get him on the podcast. [00:41:48] I'm having a hard time scheduling him. His schedule is obviously very tight, and mine isn't always the most open. So we're trying to get that together. Hopefully we will, though, in the next month or two. [00:41:58] The good fight, Tony Ellis. Hit that like button, folks. That's right, baby. Hit that like button. Thank you, Tran Cat. Kansan says Trad. Kansan says. Sorry. The Society has never slipped on the supposedly slippery slope of disobedience. They haven't gone steady. They never have created false jurisdiction. They've only preserved the traditional priesthood. [00:42:19] I will say a big argument in the favor of the Society is their history in the sense that everybody has claimed since the day they kind of got in trouble. This is the 1970s. [00:42:34] They're going to go seti they're going to break from the Church, they're going to reject the Pope. All this stuff, and it's never happened. They still include the Pope and the local ordinary in the Canon of the Mass. They, they still consider themselves faithful children of the Roman Church. They consider Leo the legitimate Pope. All that, and that does mean something. It shows, it does show that they're serious when they say we're not just, we're not trying to separate from the Church. [00:43:04] Misbehaving. Says the discussions go on and on in ad nauseam. I think there's a legitimate reason to think that history has shown that is a very likely scenario. [00:43:16] TR Signal guy says you can get an automatic annulment if you were married in the SSPX before Pope Francis. I didn't know that. That's interesting. [00:43:24] I don't know anything about that, though. Okay, so I think I'm gonna wrap it up there. I appreciate everybody jumping in the chat and I, I just think, obviously it's always my advice, but I think it's good advice. Please, please, let's pray and fast. Praying fast for Pope Leo, obviously, and for Cardinal Fernandez and for the Society. I don't think any of us should want Episcopal, un, unapproved Episcopal consecrations to happen. Nobody should want that. [00:43:51] We should desire a reconciliation between the Vatican and between the Society, and we should desire that their consecrations are approved by the Pope, that everything is done the way it should be done. So let's pray for that. And there's no guarantee that it won't happen like that. We shouldn't be like, oh, it just can't happen. God can do anything. So let's pray and fast for the Society, for all the people who attend Society Masses and chapels, the priests, and also obviously for the back from Pope Leo and everybody associated with this whole mess. So, okay, that's it for now. Until next time, everybody. God love you and remember the poor. [00:44:31] It.