Is the SSPX Still Needed?

[00:00:02] The Society of St. Pius X says it needs to consecrate new bishops in order for it to survive and to continue its mission. [00:00:11] But that raises the important question, does it really need to survive? Hello Eric Sammons, and welcome to Crisis. [00:00:30] Foreign. [00:00:35] First, I want to apologize for not having a podcast last week at all. I was traveling out of town. I was giving a talk in Atlanta, Georgia on Tuesday. [00:00:45] And then also I just honestly, the last two weeks have been very busy for me because I am finishing up my book, the Catholic Guide to Artificial Intelligence, which will be out this fall. But I have to submit to the publisher by end of this month and I was very much working against the deadline here, and so I've been kind of busy with that. So I wasn't able to do a podcast like last week. So I apologize. [00:01:06] But what I want to do now is to talk about the Society of St. Pius X. I've had one podcast on this a bit very generally when it first came out they're going to do consecrations, but I didn't really give any strong views on this. [00:01:19] They since they've announced that they're going to do Episcopal Consecration on July 1st back in I think it was early February. [00:01:26] I've honestly been mulling this over. I purposely have not like been real outspoken about this one way or the other, whether I think it's a good idea, bad idea or anything like that, because I really did want to think about and I've talked to a number of people as well, both who are attend SSPX chapels or, you know, they're associated with the sspx, sympathetic to it. I've listened to people like Bishop Ethan Schneider talk about it and others. I've also talked to some who are not fans of the SSPX and don't think they should be doing the consecrations. And so I've been just kind of mulling so over coming to my own conclusions. And so I kind of do have my own views now, my own opinions of this, and I just wanted to put them out there and let people know what I think, but also to hear from you. This is obviously a Tuesday live session, so feel free to jump in the comments and give your own views as well. [00:02:18] But so, so let's get started then. [00:02:20] First, I just want to give my kind of overall view of the Society of St. Pius X as it's evolved over the years. When I first converted in the 1990s, I was like most conservative Catholics. I was against the Society. I thought they were schismatic in schism I thought they were. I remember. I think it was. I can't remember what year it was in the 1990s, when it was Bishop Bruck. [00:02:44] I think it was in Lincoln, Nebraska. He excommunicated a number of members of a number of groups. And one of them was like, Call to Action, which was a very progressive, Catholic, Catholic organization. In other words, the sspx. And I thought, yeah, that's right. We're not. We're not crazy on either side. We're not the crazy liberals. We're not the crazy trads. And so I, and I think, honestly, most conservative Catholics in the 90s and maybe even early 2000s, kind of had this view of the Society. You know, their, Their founder had been excommunicated. What else do you need to say now? I will say, though, over time, my views have developed and, you know, we have development of doctrine, we have development opinions. And as I've become more traditional, I started attending traditional at Mass at a fraternity, St. Peter Parish, years ago, and I read a biography of Archbishop Lefebvre. I started to listen to what the Society said, kind of their arguments for why they did what they did and why they exist, all that stuff. I did become much more sympathetic into the point where I really kind of felt like, okay, I, I see. I see where they're coming from, at the very least. And I, and I, more than anything else, I appreciate their theological and spiritual teachings. They have nothing to do with whether or not they should have consecrated bishops or the whole situation with Rome or anything like that, but just simply their, Their teachings on the various subjects. I remember one time I was looking for a book. [00:04:12] I think it was on, like, teenagers and dating or something like that, or young people and parents helping them out. I remember I found one at the, at the Society bookstore. What is that called in Jellico or something like, I can't remember the name of the press. And I thought, oh, well, this is going to be solid. Then I don't have to worry about it. I know it's going to be good. And that's kind of my thought was with any. If it's a book written by a Society priest or is endorsed by the Society, I was like, okay, it's going to be solid theology. Again, I'm not talking about things related to their own status in the Church, you know, their canonical status, their. The. All those type of things. I'm not talking about that. I'm just talking about just basic theology. What they talk about, what they. [00:04:55] The, you know, the, The. Their Theological, spiritual teachings, I thought were always very solid. Now I will say I've always thought, though, that Archbishop Lefebvre consecrating the bishops in 1988 was a mistake. And my reading of it, and I've read a lot of the history of it, I thought he should have waited longer. I mean, I wasn't in that time, as far as I wasn't part of it. I wasn't even Catholic yet when that was happening. I was only in high school. But at the same time, I've always kind of felt like he should have done even more. He should have gone even further than he did, kind of waiting for Rome. But in the end, he did what he did. [00:05:31] Also, I. I think that. I think our shooter should. Lefebvre will probably one day, maybe. I'm less sure about this than I used to be. He could be declared a saint one day, hundreds of years from now. I think he was a saintly man. Even if you disagree, even if you think his decision to consecrate bishops in 1988 was a mistake or even a sin, I still think he was a saintly man. If you look at his biography, you look at his life, what he did in Africa as a missionary and all that, and his. His love of Christ and the Church, I just think he was a saint. And also I would agree with those who say he basically saved the traditional at Mass. I think it is true. They have not. For Archbishop Lefebvre, it's very likely we would. The traditional Latin Mass would basically be dead. It wouldn't even be practiced celebrated almost anywhere in the Church today. And so we have him to thank for. I mean, you could even be anti society and pro tlm and come that conclusion that you should come to that conclusion, because God always uses different interesting instruments for his will. It's not always. The instruments he uses are perfect vessels, so to speak. And so I think that even if you are kind of anti Lefebvre, you have to give him credit for the fact that it was his stubbornness, his perseverance and his. His fortitude that made sure that we still had a traditional Latin Mass. And so we should be very thankful for that. So I think that. And also I would. I would say regarding the society in general, I agree with him that there's a crisis in the Church. Obviously our name is crisis. And so we think there's a crisis in the Church here. And I agree with him completely. And a crisis of the Church does sometimes call for actions that might be outside the Norm. And I fully acknowledge that. And I think that is the case because, you know, we don't. Canon law serves us. We don't serve canon law. And so obviously we shouldn't be trying to break canon law or anything like that or kind of pushing the envelope on canon law. But at the same time, we do have to recognize that ultimately it serves us. It's for the salvation of souls, as it says in the last canon, canon law. [00:07:39] I also, I do not understand the conservative Catholics who are so nasty against the Society. They're just so petty and they kind of lose their, their, their rationality when it comes to society. I mean, you just see stuff online of people talking, people who are basically solid Catholics. And these aren't like some progressives or anything like that. I'm talking about conservative Catholics. They're probably usually Novus Ordo, but they're conservative, solid Catholics. And they are unbelievably harsh and nasty against the society in all ways. And they will mock them. They will basically consider them as outside the Church. I mean, just completely crazy. They're more sympathetic to the orthodox than they are to, to society. They're more sympathetic to processing art, to society. I just, I don't get that. I feel like it's, it's like their way of making sure everybody in the world knows, don't worry, I'm not French. I'm not too extreme. I feel like that's kind of what they're doing. And, and I'm. Don't worry, I'm loyal to Rome. I'm not, you know, I might be conservative. I might have some criticism of Pope Francis or Pope Leo, but I am, I am a good soldier. [00:08:49] I think, I feel like it's partly that and also, I think, I think is actually a big part of it. I think the criticisms that the Society makes of post conciliar, the post concealer church hits a little too hard home because some of those compromises that they've made, maybe if they're priests in their own ministry or if they're lay people in the parish they go to, they don't like them being called out. They'd like to rather just kind of shove them on the rug. So when they go to a parish with female eucharistic ministers and they just kind of be like, oh, it's not that big a deal, whatever. And I don't think they like the fact that the society calls them out on that. I mean, basically by their existence and by their, their teachings. And so I think that's Another reason why they get so nasty. I mean, I even saw. It's getting to, it's crazy. It's getting to the point where they're accusing the Society not of schism only, but of heresy. Of heresy. They're saying the Declaration of Faith that, that the Superior General of the Society put out about a month or two ago is actually heretical. [00:09:49] And if you think it's heretical, it just, you're crazy. Now, there are some ways that things are worded that maybe they could be word a little bit better, but they're not. I mean, it's not, it's just, it's crazy. It's not heroic. I'm going to have something about this in a couple days on, on, on crisis that I'm writing. [00:10:07] But it just, it just, I think I feel like they've lost their minds. A lot of these conservative Catholics, in their way, they treat the Society, they treat them as, as worse than Father James Martin, as kind of worse than bishops. Just the worst possible thing. And it doesn't make any sense. Here's the reality. The Society is not heretical. They're absolutely not heretical. And there's no way you can say they're heretical without basically condemning every Catholic who came before the Council. [00:10:31] They just believe what, what, what we believe. And it's not. You can't say, like the Church has changed its teachings. It hasn't. It's changed some of its practices, some, you know, but it has not changed its teachings. And so you can't call them heretical. [00:10:44] I don't think you can call them schismatic either. You can't say they're in schism. I should put that way, I know there are some very. I mean, I think Cardinal Burke has said that before. I think Cardinal Mule. No, I don't think Cardinal Mueller has, but I know there's been some heavy hitters who have said that. I don't think you can say they're in schism because I don't think the Church treats them like they're in schism. The Vatican has not treated them like they're in schism. I'm not, I'm talking about right now. I'm not talking about after the consecrations in July. [00:11:08] So I don't think you could say they're. They're in schism. So what I want to talk about, though is I want to focus on today, the, what the Society is doing, like what they're doing now. I want to. Before I do that, though, I think it should be Clear that there are two different ways you look at this, because it's a relationship between Rome and econ. I think you pronounce it econ, where, you know, where their headquarters is. [00:11:31] And so I've been focused. [00:11:35] My thoughts in the past few months have mostly been focused on Rome. What's Rome's responsibility? And I do that for two reasons. First of all, because I'm not in the Society, I'm not a member of society. And so I'm kind of. I think it's more important that I'm critical of my team, so to speak. And I don't like to put it that way, really, because obviously I disagree with a lot of things the Vatican does. But ultimately, since I'm not a member of society, I'm a member, but I am Catholic, then my side, so to speak, is the Vatican. And I. I think that's one reason I'm going to be more critical of them. Secondly, I'm going to be more critical of them because they're in the position of power. I think I've mentioned this once before, that I always want. I always want to be more critical of the more powerful member in a relationship, the more powerful partner in a relationship. So, for example, that's why I'm much more critical United States, for example, than I am of other countries, because the United States is always in the power position. And I don't go on and on about, like, attacking Israel, for example. I have criticisms of it, but I'm more focused on the United States supporting Israel, for example, or Ukraine or Russia or Iran, whatever. [00:12:41] And I'm doing that here, too. Like my main criticisms in this whole situation, absolutely. I'm going to have some serious criticisms of the Society here in a second. But I want to make it clear my main criticism are definitely with the Vatican. I think that they. I think that should be the focus most of us have as Catholics. I mean, Bishop Athens Schneider, that's exactly what he's done. He hasn't been saying, like, taking the Society's position or anything like that, endorsing everything they're doing. He's simply saying that he's focused on what Rome should do, what should Rome do in this situation? [00:13:17] And I think, honestly, I think they should extend mercy and understanding. I think they should allow the consecrations to happen. I think they should tell them, yes, you can consecrate the bishops. However, we also want to sit down and we want to have some serious discussions with you and I and really talk about the issues. I think they should be Willing to listen to criticisms of the post Vatican II era. This is what probably one of my biggest criticisms of the hierarchy of the Catholic Church is that whenever somebody dares to even say the slightest criticism back into it's quickly, I can't hear you. I can't hear you. They don't want to have anything to do with it. They reject you immediately. Is not accepting Vatican ii. Who knows what that even means? [00:14:03] I think in a healthy organization, a healthy institution, you're willing. Leaders are willing to listen to criticisms from the laity and from, from priests and just from anybody. [00:14:17] You should be willing to listen to criticism. Now you might disagree with the criticisms. You might in the end say, no, I don't think that's legitimate. That's not what's happening here. They simply, the Vatican simply will not listen to any criticism of Vatican ii. They will simply attack you. I mean, we see this in, in the trad world outside of society that like basically I remember so clearly at one point, I think this is 2019 or something like that. [00:14:41] And Bishop Barron basically just mocked the idea that he would sit down with a traditionalist like Taylor Marshall. He mocked the idea. This is a guy who prides himself on being with everybody and anybody. He will talk to atheists, he'll talk to Jews, he'll talk to Muslims, he'll talk to, you know, Hollywood stars, he'll talk to politicians and he'll talk to anybody, everybody. But he will not sit down and have a real conversation with a traditionalist. Like, I would love it. Would he have a sit down. Just ask yourself this. Do you think Bishop Barron and Bishop Baron is one of the better ones? Do you think should Baron would sit down for a conversation with Peter Kozneski? [00:15:18] Do you think any bishop really would Cardinal Cupich or Cardinal Fernandez, would they actually sit down and talk to people like Peter Kwasniewski? We saw that in the Vatican. I'm sorry, under Francis, the Francis pontificate. How much they just clearly had no idea what traditionalism was. They had no idea. The way Pope Francis would talk about it was clear it was just stereotypes of things he had heard that he had no real direct communication with traditionalists. [00:15:48] And so I think that because they just won't hear, they just cannot stand the idea that perhaps something is wrong with their status quo that keeps them that, that, that they have given their lives over to. Because they haven't. I wouldn't even say they've given their lives over to Catholicism as much as they've given their lives over to A certain way of living out Catholicism that we are saying is including the Society and other more traditionally Catholics, and a lot of conservative Catholics are saying there's a lot wrong with that. The emperor has no clothes and we need to fix things. [00:16:22] But they would rather see millions of people leave the church than consider the possibility that maybe some of these criticisms have some merit. Again, I'm not saying you have to buy the whole traditionalist menu and buy everything on it. I don't even do that. [00:16:40] And I'm not saying you have to. I'm just simply saying, no, listen. And that's where I would say the Vatican has really dropped, Dropped the ball here. And when you look at the two sides, the Vatican and the sspx, there's no question in my mind who the main band guy is here, the one making the main mistakes, and that's the Vatican. There's no question in my mind because they're totally inconsistent. They preach over and over dialogue. They preach over and over compassion and mercy. They can preach over and over this idea of accompaniment and walking together with those we disagree with. They will do with homosexuals. They love doing with homosexuals. They will do with China. They will do it with, you know, anybody and everybody. [00:17:19] They'll do it with the Jews, they'll do it with the Muslims. They'll do it all the time. But they will not do it with the Society. [00:17:26] They won't meet. They won't really have any substantive meetings with them. They. They treat them at arm's length. And I just think that's, that's, that's a scandal, frankly. It's a scandal. And also another reason I'm so harsh on the Vatican and how they're relating to the Society is, is because who's their point man in this? [00:17:46] Cardinal Fernandez. [00:17:48] Cardinal Fernandez, who's both incompetent and heretical. He combines the two in one great mix. [00:17:56] And so having him as your point man, I mean, you don't blame the Society for being like, how can we take this seriously? How can we take this seriously when Fernandez is the guy that the Pope wants us to talk with? It is very difficult. And I think that's. That's the case. Okay, so, you know, what are we 18 minutes in? I still haven't even started to address the question of the, of the podcast, which is the sspx. Is it still in need? Do we still need it? And here's where I'm gonna just tick off all my pro society people, I'm sure. And I, I think I have a good relationship with them that they understand where I'm coming from with this. [00:18:34] Because although I say our focus should be on what the Vatican has done and not done in the relationship, we can't just wave a hand at the Society and act like, okay, they're not a responsible party, like they, that they. And they've been perfect in all of this, and they've never done anything wrong, and they have all, all the arguments on their favor and stuff like that. I don't think that's fair either. I don't think that's fair to. To Rome or to Catholicism in general. [00:19:01] I do have some real criticisms with the Society. I do think that it does foster in many people a schismatic mentality. [00:19:12] Now, I know a lot of the, the more progressive especially, and, and other critics of. [00:19:17] Of the Society yell the word schism at them all the time, even though clearly they're not in schism based upon the. Like I said, they're based on the way Rome deals with them as far as, like, they don't treat them like the orthodox, for example, who are in schism. [00:19:33] I do think, though, that's not the same as saying of a schismatic mentality. What I mean by that is we can think of another term for if we want to. [00:19:40] But I do think that you will find members of the Society both. When I say members, I know technically a layperson who attends a chapel is not a member of the site. The Society is a priestly fraternity, and so therefore only priests. Clerics are members of it. But. And I think they have a order of nuns as well. But my point is, is I say members as I'm talking about anybody who regularly attends the chapel and kind identifies with them, even though I know technically that's not. That's not true. [00:20:08] What I would say is they do tend to have. They can have a schismatic mentality, meaning they see themselves separate from the wider church, from the overall Catholic Church. And you see this in how they brag about the fact that we don't have to worry about, you know, dealing with our bishop telling us we can't do this or we can do that, that we're. And they, they kind of had this attitude of, okay, we're. [00:20:32] We're kind of above the Church. We're above dealing with those. Those problems that you people have. And I think that is a schismatic mentality, because the reality is this is a big one. My big points here is being Catholic means being part of the messy Church, being part of the Church that has both the wheat and the tares. It has a lot of problems in it and has a lot of problems even high up in it. That's part of being Catholic. That's part of our call as followers of Jesus Christ, isn't that we separate ourselves from that we are not called. I mean, this has been a constant temptation and danger of Catholics from day one. [00:21:09] Is this idea of separating yourselves from kind of the unclean, from the less, you know, the less Catholics. The Donatist heresy, obviously, and others like it. [00:21:18] And so we have to be on guard against that. And I think that the very existence of society in a non canonical way, irregular, canonical, whatever you want to call it, the fact is they run themselves without really reference to Rome. That's the. That's the point here, is that the society runs itself without reference to Rome. Obviously they do because I know they consult with Rome sometimes on certain canonical matters and things like that, but they run outside of the influence of Rome, which is clear by the fact that they're about to consecrate bishops without permission of Rome. [00:21:48] And so I think that is a big problem. And I think. I mean, you see that and I've talked to some people and others and it just, it does exist within society. I think that's a real danger. And over time that can get to be worse and worse. And I've heard stories about, you know, society priests and like their formation and how they don't really completely understand how the church, you know, they really kind of look themselves as a priest of society, not a priest of the Catholic Church. Now, I also want to be clear about something. It's very public that I'm friends with Kennedy hall and also James Vogel, who is Kennedy hall, of course, writes and wonderful stuff. And James Vogel is a spokesperson of. [00:22:30] I have nothing but good things to say about the two of them. And I want to make sure, because everybody knows I know them and so they might think I'm talking about them. I have nothing but good things to say about Kennedy and James. And so I just want people to know I'm not talking about them in particular right now, but I am saying that I have seen it and I think it's. It's. And I think, honestly, I feel like it's gotten worse. [00:22:50] And I feel like, honestly the. Like, I think I brought this up before, that society has gotten a little bit more. I don't know what the right word is, but they've gotten a little more aggressive in their critiques of Rome, a little bit more snarky. In them. Like, one of the things that society did for a long time was they always took the high road that they just kind of said, we're doing our thing. And we're not really going to comment that much on what Rome is doing, but I feel like they've gotten much more into doing that. And I think that's a path that is dangerous because it can lead you to a true schism where you are completely no longer in communion with the Bishop of Rome. And I think that is a very dangerous path to go down now. I think, honestly, that a bigger question here is, though, I want to go a little deeper than just, should they consecrate the bishops in July? [00:23:39] I want to ask, are they still needed? Like, do we need a Society of Saint Pius X in the church today? And I think that we should. Like I said, we should be very grateful for Archbishop Lefebvre for saving the traditional Latin Mass. But I do not think it's any. It's not the 1970s and 1980s anymore. Anymore. It's not 1988, and it's not. And. And it's not 1988. Partly because of Archbishop Lefebvre, because of our traditional Lefebvre and what he did, we now have the Clay z community, so to speak. I think they're called, you know, fraternity St. Peter, the institute of Christ the King, and others in the church that are within the fold of the Church. So far, they deal with the messiness of the Church, yet they also are faithful to tradition. They celebrate the traditional sacraments, they preach the traditional teachings, they preach traditional spirituality, things like that. [00:24:31] And the fact is, is it's not now. I think in some ways the crisis is worse today than it was in 1988. But I think in a lot of ways it's very different and better that in 1988, there was literally no real. [00:24:47] No real path for traditionalists inside the Church, like fully in regular communion, all whatever you want to call it. I know they're weird ways to rephrase it, but the point is, is there were no options other than the Society in 1988. Really. There's some set of akanta stuff. There might have been a few, you know, diocesan, a couple approved traditional Masses, but really there was nothing else. [00:25:11] And so that's one thing. That's not what the case is today. Today, like I said, we have a lot of clay zay communities within the Church that are in full, like, canonical regularity. [00:25:24] And so there are a lot of options that we can do that. We don't have to go the society route. And I know that some would say, well, look at tradition as custodes and what Pope Francis did. I would just say look at that and look at the result and the fact that the fraternity was not shut down, the institute was not shut down. We still had the traditional Mass celebrated in many places. I know it was shut down in certain places. I don't want to act like it. It wasn't anything like that. [00:25:50] My point is, though, there are outlets. And my question is, how many more outlets would there have been today if the Society had somehow reconciled with rome in the 1990s or the early 2000s or under Pope Benedict, for example, if they come to a full kind of reconciliation where they are inside, no canonical weirdness, nothing like that? How many more options will we have today where we don't have to worry about the fact that it's this irregularity, like most honest society people will tell you it's not a good situation they're in in the sense that it's not ideal. You know, obviously they want to be completely within the fold, and they're not. And they recognize that. And I give them a lot of credit for recognizing that. But I do think, though, that we have options, though now, and the society had come into the fold years ago, we'd have even more options. [00:26:40] Because here's the thing that I think is. And I know some people will push back on this, and that's fine. But I. I would say that for the average person in the pew, what is the difference between, if you attend a fraternity parish, or a society chapel, what is the actual difference? And I would say basically almost none, in that the Mass will be celebrated the same, the sacraments will be celebrated the same, the preaching will basically be the same, the catechesis will be the same, the spiritual direction will be the same. [00:27:13] And so if that's the case, why then go the society route when there is routes like the Fraternity? [00:27:20] You're playing with fire. [00:27:23] You're putting yourselves at least somewhat outside the purview of Rome. And as Catholics, we need to be under the purview of Rome, even when Rome is a disaster, like it often is in the modern world. [00:27:35] I'm not going to debate with you whether or not we are in a crisis and whether or not things are bad. [00:27:40] I talk about all the time on this podcast and in Crisis magazine. I know it is. But I'm just saying, though, that you need to have. You know, it's important still to stay kind of Inside, fully inside the church. Don't, don't get hypercritical about like the size, not outside the church. I get all that. I'm not saying it is, but we know what I'm talking about. The canonical irregularity does matter on some level. It's not the most important thing on earth, but it is in the world. But is. It does matter. And some would say, well, we need a society because it's kind of protected from the mess. It can be that example. That shining light on the hill, so to speak, is an example to all traditional groups. So they know, okay, can I keep this straight and narrow? Okay, perhaps, But I would just say is being part, like I've already said this, actually being part of the mess is part of being Catholic. [00:28:30] We don't have a perfect church. We got a lot of problems, and we need to stay inside it completely and fully. It's the wheat and the tares again. [00:28:37] And here's the thing that I think that. And so you think, you think, okay, the society, if we're being outside the chapel, is outside of the purview of Rome, the direct purview room. That protects you from a lot of the problems. Okay, I will grant that on some level. Yet at the same time, it. It brings new problems in that the fraternity parish and the institute parish. I'm not trying to make this fraternity versus society, by the way. I'm just saying that are not in existence in these other. [00:29:03] In parishes, traditional parishes, are 100 within the Catholic Church, within the purview of the Vatican. And like I said, part of it, a major one, is the development of a schismatic attitude, a development, schismatic mentality. I mean, does anybody really think it's possible for Rome and society to be reconciled at this point? Do you really see a path to that happening other than a, A massive miracle from God? I don't. It's just gotten too much. And I think what happens though is that that will cause a deeper schismatic mentality till we have a true schism where they really are just not even bothering to even give lip service practically to Rome. And I think that that's a real problem. And here's the thing. If you say, well, if they did that, then, you know, they could. They'd be susceptible getting cracked down by Rome. You know, if a tradition is custodians times two happened or something like that, okay, well, then you can go off and do your society thing again. You can go do your regular communion thing again. Like, what I'm saying is I'm not saying that like there's never, ever will be a situation which that's not a, a possible way forward. And there's not a state of necessity where that could happen. Okay, maybe I'll grant you that. But if, even if I do, I don't think it exists today. I don't think the state of necessity exists today, that you have to be outside of the boundaries, the canonical boundaries of Rome. I think that's probably the best way to put it. I don't think that. I think a true crisis exists now, but not a state of necessity where you have to be outside, where you have to be in this canonical irregular state. I don't think that is necessary. And I think it's proved by the fact that for 30 plus years we've had these ecclesia communities within the Church operating and saving souls and preaching traditional Catholicism. [00:30:50] Now you could say, well, the fraternity was promised a bishop back in the day and they never got one. True. [00:30:56] But again, they still exist, though. They're still running, aren't they? I actually think one of the things that is keeping the society kind of apart is, I think more of them than we might guess question the validity of Novus Ordo order. [00:31:11] I'm sorry, they question the validity of Novus Ordo sacraments. [00:31:17] They always kind of say we're willing to, they accept in theory their validity, but I think in practice they might question a lot more than they, they let on. By that, I mean the fact that fraternity priests are often ordained by bishops who are, who are themselves consecrated or ordained in the Novus Ordo. [00:31:37] I would not be surprised if they're like, we're not going to do that. We're not going to take that chance. [00:31:42] And then we have a whole bigger problem because you reject the validity of the, of the, of the new, the new sacraments. [00:31:51] We've got a real big issue then, that, that is far beyond anything we're talking about here today. [00:31:58] So if you do, though, accept that, you know, you know, the, the, you either, if you reject the fact that the fraternity or the Institute or whoever, that their priests might not be valid because they were ordained by bishops who might not be validly ordained because they were Novus Ordo, well, then you really are in schism. [00:32:18] You really are in schism because you're rejecting, if you reject the sacraments of the wider Catholic Church, you're not in communion with that Catholic Church anymore, because being in communion with the Catholic Church means you're accepting the validity of the sacraments. So I mean, if you go, if you go totally said of a contest, something like that, rejected, okay, that's one thing, you're in schism. And, but you're, you know, you're consistent. [00:32:40] So I do think that that's, that's a real issue that, that we have, that needs to be addressed. And like, that's why I do think we can, we can promote traditionalism and continue to save souls through traditional sacraments and teaching and preaching and spirituality and all that, without having a canonically irregular group. [00:32:59] That, that's. And, and if it comes, maybe at some point down the road, we will need it again, but we don't need it now. It's not the 1980s anymore more. [00:33:07] And so I think that that's a, that's a key point. So my advice is just kind of. Let me conclude with some of my overall advice. Here is, number one, I do think Rome should extend mercy. And I, I think they should approve the consecrations, not because I think the consecrations are a good idea, but simply because I think that that's what Rome should do, because they're obviously going to be valid, and so they might as well. I think they should just do it as an act of mercy. Mercy, remember, doesn't always, isn't always strict justice. And I think they should do it and they should say, and as that, because I think that would then, if they did that, and they said, now let's sit down and talk. And the society balked at that. [00:33:42] Well, now society's lost all their bargaining chip. They've lost all their kind of high road if they then refuse to talk. And so I think that would be a great sign by the Vatican. It's like what you do, if you're the father, you do that with your son. [00:33:59] You extend as much mercy as possible so that you can have a reconciliation. And I think, I feel like instead the Vatican, their whole attitude has been like, I want to reject any type of reconciliation. I just want to, you know, eliminate out of hand. I think that's, that's a terrible attitude. But I also think the society should not consecrate bishops on July 1st. I think they should be more open to doing talks. [00:34:22] I understand there's a little bit of a rush because again, just like there was in 1988, because of the, the biological, you know, demographic clock is ticking on the two remaining society bishops. They're not young men. They could die any day now, just like all of us could. But they're getting older and older. And so I understand that the clock is ticking. But I do think they, they should be open, just like I thought they should have done 1988. I think they should do now, be more open to talks and not do the consecration. I think they should have given Pope Leo more of a chance. Pope Leo wasn't even pope for a year when they dropped this. They never did this during Francis's pontificate. [00:34:57] Why? I don't know. And all of a do is for Leo and drop. I feel like it was almost a power move. [00:35:03] They were hoping Leo would blink or something like that. And I don't think that's the attitude of a son should have to his father. Just like I don't think the father should be looking for way, looking for ways to close off reconciliation. I don't think a son should be doing things to do it either. I think a son should be more apt to say, okay, I'm going to listen to what, what dad has to say. [00:35:23] I also think that people who attend the Society of St. Pius X Chapels and, and priests should consider if, if this happens, if the consecrations happen, and if, like we think, there will be excommunications issued and it will be declared in schism and things like that. I do think they should consider reuniting fully with Rome. They should consider attending a parish that is fully canonically connected to Rome. Because I'm not judging the members of people who attend these chapels. I'm not judging them. I think they're probably a lot holier than I am, most of them. [00:35:59] They love the Lord and things like that. But you're playing a dangerous game. [00:36:04] If you continue to attend the Society of St. Pius X after these consecrations happen, if excommunications happen and schisms declared, because ultimately what will probably happen is the likelihood is that the faculty for confessions and marriages will be lifted. [00:36:21] They will be removed. And so that means in the eyes of Rome at least, the confessions heard by society priests will not be valid, neither will the marriages witnessed by them be valid. And now I know that the Society defends and says, no, they are valid and they have their reasons. They have strong arguments. I'm not saying they're. They're like making things up, but that's a risky game you're playing, in my opinion. I mean, your confession might not be valid. Well, if you commit a moral sin, you go to a society priest for confession and it's not valid. [00:36:54] And all because you trusted the argument that, oh, it is still valid. I mean, that it's just a dangerous game I'm not saying it is invalid. I'm just simply saying that you're, you're, you're risking a lot. You better be awful. Sure. And honestly, I won't recommend people to attend the society chapels after the excommunications. I don't really recommend it now. I just tell people if you can find traditional at masses, not society, go to that. And that was never an anti society thing as much as it was just simply. I didn't see a reason why not to. Why you would go to society when you could go to another one and, but people who had no other option in society. I kind of just was like, well, I won't say anything. I'm not going to judge you or anything. I'm still not going to judge you. But I'm not going to like really make too much comment. [00:37:35] But I do think it's different if the excommunications happen. And I think, you know, the reality is realize what a serious act this is. Realize it's a very serious act. This is not. You know, we're not playing games here. When the man who you acknowledge as the Bishop of Rome, if he issues an excommunication of, of your bishops and he lifts like the faculties for confession and marriages, even if you think those are not valid actions of his, you better be sure. And I, I wouldn't be sure myself. So I, that's why I wouldn't recommend it. So. [00:38:09] Okay, let me get to the live chat here. Let's hear what some people have to say here. Okay. Huskers are royals. Gal said in Royal's Gal says I'll miss this live stream because I have a dentist appointment today at 2pm but yes, this SSPX is still needed because the FSSP is not everywhere as well as the institute is not everywhere. Yes, and I realize it's a good point. That's one reason why I say I wish they would have reconciled decades ago so they would be more available. And I do think if they did come into the fold of the church, they, it would be available much more. But I understand your point and I, I get that they're not. You know, a lot of places the traditional at mass is not available, but the society is. [00:38:44] Youtubio says if you had a truly Catholic dentist, they'd be streaming it in the room. Oh, that's funny. Yeah, the. She missed it because of dentist appointment. Yeah. Why aren't you streaming Crisis point at your dentist office? Come on. [00:38:56] Phoenix XP says we just had Archbishop Weisenberger speak At the inauguration of a major new mosque. Oh, I somehow that. That dropped. [00:39:05] Inauguration of a major new mosque in Dearborn. They said that they had the fullness of divine presence in their building, but no state of emergency. Lol. I mean, I saw that. I didn't look at it completely. I'm like I said, I know there's a crisis. [00:39:17] I do think though, it's not as simple as just simply saying, oh, some lame bishop in Detroit said something stupid and heretical. I mean, I imagine I did not look at that carefully what he said. So don't quote me on the fact that's heretical. Maybe it wasn't, but it, it sound the little bit I saw sounded super lame at the very least. [00:39:38] Yeah, okay. I'm the one who's been beating the drum for years on stuff like that. I literally wrote a whole book about it called Deadly Indifference, which is very sympathetic in how it treats the sspx, by the way, but I know that's a real problem. [00:39:51] But that does not automatically mean that what the society doing is the correct response to it. That's the key point here. We're not arguing about whether it's a state of crisis. The question is, is it to the point where what the society is doing is justified and legitimate? Tom Palm says we have options in Japan and New Zealand and Africa. Yeah, it's not as many places, but if the society would come into the fold, we would have options. [00:40:19] K Bear says options are in some places countries. The TLM is not a universal option. We're blessed to have what we have with the oratory. That's the unicorn option. The SSPX fights for the 99% non unicorn areas. [00:40:32] But they could do it. They could fight for it within the fold. I kind of will say that. I, I appreciate, by the way, what everybody's saying. I get that the Society is in places where there is no other option for traditional Latin Mass. [00:40:44] But if they would accept, you know, being part of the fold, I mean, what is it? The question, of course is what do they have to accept to be part of the fold? [00:40:55] What has the fraternity accepted that the Society has rejected that makes the fraternity within the fold? I'm just going to say within the fold for lack of precise terminology. And society outside of the fold, what is it exactly? What would you say the fraternity has done that somehow compromised the faith such that it shouldn't be sorry, it shouldn't be like that, it's done something wrong? [00:41:19] Because that's what you're saying when you say the Society is okay to stay outside the fold. What you are also implying is that the fraternity is wrong to stay in it. [00:41:30] And I'd like to know what that is that the fraternity has done wrong or the institute, by the way, I'm not like some cheerleader for the fraternity. I don't attend a fraternity parish anymore. I. Different numbers. I think they got some issues too. You know, they got some, you know, solid people and stuff like that, but they got some not so solid people as well, in my experience. [00:41:46] So I'm not claiming them to be a utopia or panacea. [00:41:50] Richard says dialogue is fine, but do you think the Vatican is going to hear anything it doesn't already know? And presumably the goal would be some sort of compromise. Would the SSPX move on its positions? That's the question. Yeah, that's exactly what I'm asking. [00:42:02] What exactly is it? [00:42:05] Because if it's, is it just the fact that they won't be allowed to consecrate bishops, what would they have to say? Because like the fact is, is that let's say the institute of the Fraternity, they're within the fold. But I guarantee you the priests of the fraternity, the priests of the institutes, like organization like that, they reject a lot of the craziness coming out of the, out of the Vatican and they stay within the fold. So what exactly would the, would the Society have to accept that's unacceptable to them to be in the fold? Just the fact that they'd have to now be under diocesan bishops. They wouldn't have their own way of running things. [00:42:40] Maybe. I honestly am asking the question. I don't know. [00:42:44] They have 730 priests. Okay, 730. [00:42:47] That's a good number. [00:42:49] Phoenix says as long as Rome is not willing to look at the possibility, there is a problem with Vatican ii. The SSPX is right. Rightfully assumes a state of emergency at any moment. The former ed communities can be ended. Yes. And if they do, you could reform the Society. That's my point. I'm not disagreeing with you that, that there's that possibility. What I'm saying here is this. Let's say the Society decided we're going to reunite fully with Rome and all Rome says is okay, now you have to be, you're going to be a clay community and we're not going to let you consecrate bishops at first, but you're going to be in a crazy day community. Let's say they do that and so the society becomes another. They're not the fraternity. They're not, you know, subsumed in the fraternity or the Institute or anything like that. They just become another Clay Zay community. [00:43:37] So the question is, what's the problem there? [00:43:43] Why is that a problem? [00:43:45] If, like, Phoenix. Phoenix says at any moment, the former Ed communities can be ended. Okay. [00:43:51] At that point, then form the society again in the way you are now? [00:43:57] That's what I'm saying. Is it needed right now? Do we need a canonically irregular traditionalist organization? [00:44:05] And I don't really see a convincing argument that we need one right now. [00:44:10] We might need one in the future, potentially, but I don't think we need one right now. [00:44:15] So. Okay, I. I know this is something that I'm sure divides our listeners, and so I appreciate everybody giving their thoughts. Also, put in the comments what you think you're. If you need. If you think we still need the sspx. And what. What specifically is it that keeps them in canonical irregularity that doesn't keep this fraternity in that irregularity? What is it exactly? Just not being able to. Or consecrate bishops? Or is it something deeper, like do they really question the validity of Novus Order or no sacraments? I think that's something we. We really should look at a little more closely. So. Okay, everybody, I think I'm gonna wrap it up there. Until next time. God love you. And remember the poor.