Gen Z Catholicism (Guest: Peter Sammons)

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign adult Catholics face a lot of challenges today, practicing their faith from dating to college to career and more. We'll talk to a Catholic of this generation to see how they navigate today's world. Hello, I'm Eric Samuens, your host, editor, chief of Crisis magazine. Welcome to the podcast. Before we get started, want to encourage people to of course, smash that like button, subscribe to the channel, let other people know about what we're doing here. Also, you can go to our website, just go to crisismagazine.com fill in your email address and we will send email to you every morning with our articles of the day. And then finally, we're in the middle of our fundraising campaign. We only do this twice a year, so I just want to encourage people to go to crisismagazine.com you'll be asked to donate. If you're able to please do an end of year donation. We have a generous donor who has offered to match up to $75,000 in, in donations. So we haven't met that yet. So please go ahead and donate. And we appreciate, we all obviously always appreciate prayers for Crisis magazine as well. Okay, so we're talking about Gen Z. I keep want to say Gen X, because that's what I am. Gen Z Catholicism, in a sense. And so I brought Gen Z Catholic and the bio of this Catholic is he's my son, Peter Sammons. Welcome, Peter. [00:01:25] Speaker B: Thanks for having me. [00:01:26] Speaker A: Yeah. Now Peter and I actually, for those who don't know, we did a podcast together. We co hosted a podcast for a while. It was a baseball related podcast. And we promised that this podcast will not be completely on baseball. Probably won't be at all on baseball. But I'm going to break that promise immediately and just say, what do you think the chances the Reds are next year to go to the playoffs? [00:01:48] Speaker B: 2%. [00:01:49] Speaker A: 2%. [00:01:50] Speaker B: And I'm being positive on that. [00:01:52] Speaker A: Oh, man, that was. And you had thought that out. I mean, you knew. I mean, y. Oh, geez. 2%. Okay. That's not what the podcast is about. So we want to talk about basically Gen Z Catholicism, the challenges of it. And I would just say, what is your general impression of Catholics? I'm talking about now about practicing Catholics of your age, of your generation, how they kind of view the church, how do they practice the faith? [00:02:17] Speaker B: Yeah, for sure. So the first thing I would say is that I think that Gen Z Catholics need to understand that throughout the history of the church there have been problems arising in every generation. And that while we have like unique problems, they're not like worse per se, thank other generations problem. And I think we're like one of the most blessed generations with how much we're able to take in of like just like reading the lives of the saints, all of the great influences like online and plenty of great parishes around. But with that being said, obviously, I think Gen Z Catholics in large part, like real strong Gen Z Catholics know that there is a weakness in the church and they know that there could definitely be things that would be better in the church. I think that Gen Z Catholics are in large part more traditional and more sort of want a. An escape from mediocrity because they see mediocrity in the world at every turn and mediocrity is encouraged in the world. And the biggest thing that Gen Z Catholics want is an escape from the world. When they go to mass, when they are in their church's community, when they are at a Catholic college and when they hear things from church leaders, they want something different, something that is not given by the world, something that they can look to for guidance and leadership. [00:04:06] Speaker A: Yeah. So like in my generation and like, and especially the older generation above me, baby boomers, there's like an obsession with Vatican ii. That's almost all we talk about. It seems like everything is blamed on Vatican II or everything is credited with Vatican II. Now you guys were born literally, what was that? 30 years after Vatican II was over. And so you're born 30 because. Right. You're, you're born 20 years ago. It's been 50 years. Math. [00:04:35] Speaker B: When was Vatican? [00:04:36] Speaker A: Too early. Okay, that's. That kind. We don't. Yeah, yeah. Your whole world isn't based upon Vatican II, but yeah. So 30 years after Vatican II you were born. So what's like the general like thought among Gen Z Catholics about Vatican ii? Is it a positive, negative, you don't really think about it or what? [00:04:54] Speaker B: So there's definitely a big split. But I think in general, every Gen Z Catholic who is serious about their faith understands that there were problems that came after Vatican II and is trying to be part of sort of the solution or the resurgence. And the way that they do that is where they differ, I think. So I think that almost most of, probably most of serious Gen Z Catholic, like I said, are traditional leaning. But there are, there is also the portion of charismatic Catholics who also, you know, love their faith and practice it very well. And I think that for the most part the consensus with Vatican II is okay, it happened. Now what are we going to do now? What are we going to do to bring up sort of a new church in this, like, post Vatican II era. And not just always sort of lament that it happened, but rather try to create something new now. [00:06:06] Speaker A: Right, okay, now that makes some of us nervous when we hear create something new because that's all we've been hearing. [00:06:12] Speaker B: For, you know, but the problem is for you, create something new was something new compared to, you know, the 50s. [00:06:19] Speaker A: Right. [00:06:20] Speaker B: Whereas for us, create something new, it's something new compared to the 70s. [00:06:23] Speaker A: Right? Yeah, that's a good point. We definitely want to do that. Like what. What are you. Okay, you go to Franciscan University of Steubenville, and it. There's still Franciscan, still has a reputation of being a charismatic Catholic college. When I was there in the 90s, it definitely was very much had a charismatic flair. What is kind of the. The ethos or whatever of Franciscan? Is it charismatic? Is it traditional? Is it neither? Is it both? [00:06:51] Speaker B: So Franciscan is first and foremost, just extremely Catholic and charismatic. And traditional is sort of like the first separator between students. And I'd say at this point there's probably at least still 65 to 70% are charismatic. And. But that's compared to probably. It used to be like 95%. Now there's probably at least 30% who are charisma or, sorry, traditional. And it seems like it's just leaning more and more that way each. Each year, every time I go back, because also there's this movement among the charismatics of like, okay, we're not gonna be everything that came after Vatican ii. We're just going to be strictly this one charisma. Like, if you go to a mass on campus. At Franciscan, I actually counted one time when I should have been praying, but 90% of people actually, no, it was 95% were received communion on the tongue. [00:08:00] Speaker A: Oh, wow. [00:08:00] Speaker B: And most of those were kneeling. [00:08:02] Speaker A: You're clearly an accounting major because you're like counting, calculating. [00:08:06] Speaker B: I understand I should have been praying, but I was counting. This was one Sunday, right? But yeah. [00:08:10] Speaker A: Wow, that's. You say like 95% were se. On tongue. Okay. Yeah. [00:08:15] Speaker B: And even those who. I don't know, it just seems like. Because there's a lot of discussion about this at Franciscan particularly, I think a lot of like, the sort of lame habits have been weeded out, like receiving communion on the hand, where the charismatics are extremely reverent towards the Eucharist for the most part, and they love the Eucharist. And we have 24 hour adoration. And, you know, you go in there and they're prostrated on the ground, and it's like, whoa. Okay. [00:08:47] Speaker A: Yeah, it's awesome. [00:08:48] Speaker B: Nice. [00:08:48] Speaker A: When I was there in the 90s, I remember 94, there was literally one trad in my class. And I remember everybody was like, oh, that guy's kind of a weirdo. [00:08:57] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:08:58] Speaker A: And that was it. I mean, that was nice. And nobody, like, we didn't disrespect him because I wasn't traditional at that time. But at the same time, he definitely stood out very much. So I guess the traditional students don't stand out quite as much. [00:09:10] Speaker B: Definitely not. Because, well, on Franciscan, we are kind of loud. We definitely make our voices heard in sort of, like, the student leadership positions and talking to campus leadership. And by the way, like, the Franciscan hierarchy, starting with the president, Father Dave, and all the way down, they're all very open to having traditional students. There's never any attempt to stamp that out or anything. So it is very promising how much the traditional movement is growing there. [00:09:50] Speaker A: That's good. Okay, so let's not make it just about student Bill, although I kind of want to at this point. So, like, when you look at, like, bishops, I mean, that's a big thing. Also, like, especially for older generation, we complain about the bishops. We say they're not doing this job at that, or whatever, and priests and things like that. What are you looking for in our bishops, in our Catholic leaders? Like, what are you hoping they would. Would say or do in the world we live in today? [00:10:19] Speaker B: More? We don't look at the bishops very much. Like, I just feel like the bishops aren't allowed voice in the young Catholic community at all. I think that it's more gone to, like, podcasters, and I just think that. [00:10:38] Speaker A: That'S a little scary, considering it is. Well. [00:10:41] Speaker B: But I think that the bishops should have a louder voice. I think that most people. I mean, sometimes people don't know what their bishop's name is. [00:10:50] Speaker A: Right. [00:10:50] Speaker B: Like, back in Steubenville, we've gone through a couple bishops in the past, like, year, because, you know, one of them resigned, another came in, but he was an intern. And then he said something people didn't like, he's gone. [00:11:03] Speaker A: I forgot that happened. [00:11:04] Speaker B: Yeah, I legitimately. I forget what our bishop's name is. Bradley or something. I don't know. But that's a problem, though, because the bishop should be the spiritual leader of the community. And I think that the biggest thing is we just want more out of our bishops. But I think some of the. It is something where some of the bishops, they don't understand that we are traditional leaning and reverence leaning at least 100%. And when they do speak out, we're like, oh, well, I. It seems like you're still talking to, you know, the boomers and Gen X, right? [00:11:46] Speaker A: Well, it's like that. What's that meme with hello, fellow young people? [00:11:50] Speaker B: Yeah, it's. Good one, dad. [00:11:53] Speaker A: Thank you. That's me, isn't it? [00:11:57] Speaker B: Well, literally you right now, but. [00:11:59] Speaker A: Right, exactly. But the idea, though is like, there's always been this effort for, like, you know, you have youth groups, you have youth masses and all that stuff to reach out and identify with the youth, the young people. I've been very critical of that because it just seems like you're faking it. You're just. And like, I, I feel like a young person, a young adult is an adult. And so it's like, why would we treat them differently? Like, do you think, like, let's talk about the liturgy. Do you think the liturgy needs to be any different for young people? Or, or the same? Or like, you know, what is it that attracts young people to the liturgy? [00:12:37] Speaker B: What attracts young people to the liturgy is belief, actual belief and belief that is shown by actions, not words that are sort of just soft and fall on, you know, ears that don't really want to hear them. So you, you're not going to attract young people to the liturgy by pretending to be young or pretending to, you know, pander to them. You're going to attract young people to liturgy by presenting a liturgy that shows belief in what is happening. A young person, if they go to a liturgy that clearly is not centered around the Eucharist, clearly isn't centered around actual belief in the true presence. That's, that's not something they, that's not somewhere they want to be, because then it is just a youth group run by, you know, a 60 year old. [00:13:33] Speaker A: Right. Yeah, I was, I was just an interview, radio interview this morning. I was talking about this. I feel like the number one thing for young people in particular to attract them is authenticity. Pope John Paul ii, the reason he had such a devoted following back in the day is because people knew two things about him. Number one, he 100% believed what he said. I mean, he, he. There was no faking it. I mean, he very much believed. He loved Jesus very much, was very authentic on that. And number two, he very much cared about other people. He cared for young people. He wanted actually to see them be authentically Catholic, to be in a relationship with Jesus Christ. And so that's why, like, in 1993, I went to the World Youth Day, you know, six months after I became Catholic, and people were just crazy. I mean, mom was crying at it. You know, she wasn't your mom at the point. And we weren't even married yet, but we were d. And because it was so, like, such an event, and it was because he's authentic. They knew this is a man who cares about me, believes what he says. And even I wouldn't obviously have a million people, however, went to that. It's not like all the young people agreed with him on abortion or whatever, but they very much, you know, listened to him. [00:14:46] Speaker B: We still love him. [00:14:47] Speaker A: Yeah, right. Exactly. Yeah, I know. It's like, it's not. Yeah, that hasn't stopped. I mean, so it just. I feel like that is the number one thing for pastors, for bishops, is if they're authentic, they show. Yes, I very much, you know, I believe in this because I feel like too many times they apologize almost or they tone down like, oh, we can't say anything about the, you know, gay marriage or the gay stuff or abortion because we're, like, afraid that young people, which a lot of them do reject the church's teaching on this, will reject them. [00:15:16] Speaker B: One thing that is. Is every. Everything that these priests and bishops do feels like it's meant to be evangelization, even when it should be targeted towards. And by the way, obviously, I don't think it's very effective evangelization, but there should be a targeting towards people who already are Catholic. [00:15:41] Speaker A: Right? [00:15:42] Speaker B: Especially, yeah. In areas where, like Steubenville, where it's like, you know, that there are very strong Catholics present there. You shouldn't. If you're tar. If you're going to them and saying, hey, you know, abortion is bad and gay marriage is bad, but. Oh, am I allowed to say that? Well, no, obviously, we think you're. We. We know you should say that. You should be. You should be assuming that we know that. [00:16:06] Speaker A: Right. [00:16:06] Speaker B: We don't take us as these people who are, you know, completely inundated by the culture just thinking all of these liberal things just because we're young. Like, I think that there should be a targeting towards young Catholics who actually are serious about their faith and not just a constant sort of trying to evangelize us when we're already here. [00:16:30] Speaker A: Right, yeah, it makes sense, because the way evangelization happens is typically peer to peer. A bishop is not going to bring in a young person directly. What's going to happen is hopefully he will inspire people like you, people who already believe, and then you interact with your peers who don't believe, and you can evangelize them. And so it's like when he tries to. When he treats you like, okay, I need to kind of not step on any toes, walk on egg bells. And then it's like, well, what's. We're not doing anything because it's not inspiring you. And so then you can't go elsewhere. Now, one of the things that polls are showing about your age group is that the young men, men your age are. Are becoming more conservative, but the young. Which is a good sign, but young women are becoming more liberal. And I know Steubenville is going to be a little different on this, but, like, in general, have you seen that, like, outside of, like, kind of the Catholic bubble of, like, this happening? [00:17:32] Speaker B: Well, I don't talk to liberal women for any women, really, besides my fiance. [00:17:39] Speaker A: He had to say that because his fiance might be watching. [00:17:42] Speaker B: Oh, she is. I know she is. But as far as the. I mean, the conservative movement, it appeals much more to men and it appeals to women, if you look at it the right way. But I think there's definitely some work to be done on how to appeal to women. And. Yeah, I just think that, like. I just think that, like, the, the way that we do have to appeal to women in a very different way because the liberal, like, appeal to women is from a very emotional standpoint, and the conservatives just don't really know how to do that. Which might be a good thing. [00:18:36] Speaker A: Yeah. I mean, because it seems like they're rejecting a lot of young women, are rejecting the moral teaching. Church. Church. When it comes to abortion, homosexuality, things like that, and is. I mean, we can't obviously change those teachings, but. And, and I feel like if you. I mean, my, My, My gut reaction is if you bring in the men, that will eventually bring in the women, whereas if you bring in the women, it might not bring in the men. [00:19:04] Speaker B: Yeah. I don't think that there needs to be a big change in the way that we are approaching young people in general. I think the fact that we're getting more men than women, I think that the older that women get, the more likely they are to become more conservative. [00:19:23] Speaker A: Right. [00:19:24] Speaker B: And the same with men, but especially with women. I just don't think there really needs to be, like, some sort of pandering to women of, like, trying to use their tactics of, like, emotional games with them. I think that's dishonest and sort of Degrades them. [00:19:44] Speaker A: Right. [00:19:45] Speaker B: As like, oh well, you're not, you know, you're not smart enough to think like us. So we're going to give you this emotional argument. I think it should be the same, the same sort of arguments from reason that you would use with a man, you can use with a woman. [00:20:01] Speaker A: Right? Yeah. Now speaking of like young men being more conservative, I gotta bring it up. So I've had some, made some comments about Nick Fuentes who is an influencer for those who don't know who he is. Influencer. Says he's Catholic, but I've mentioned on the podcast for. But he says some outlandish things about race, about Jews and things like that. And online it appears that he is extremely popular and people like him. I mean the whole movement of being based, I mean that's, that's like the, the phrase that like I remember I had to look it up after I kept. People say I was based when I'd say something online that was just kind of controversial or whatever. But this whole movement to be based, like it becomes so important that we have to like it seems like young people really want to reject the political correctness, the wokeness and so they go the opposite extreme. Now I made a statement one time online that I don't think it's as big of a movement as people think because when I meet with, when I talk to young men, they don't either know who he is or they're not, they're not a fan of his. But am I wrong? I mean, I mean in your circles at least, is he like a big deal or people like that who like love to say like really basically racist and anti semitic things actually racist, anti things? Like are they, is that like a big thing with young, young men? [00:21:20] Speaker B: So I have a decent amount of friends like men that I, thanks dad. Men that I hang out with. You know, never once has someone brought up Nick Fuentes to me. [00:21:35] Speaker A: Not even once. [00:21:36] Speaker B: Not once. [00:21:37] Speaker A: Not once. [00:21:37] Speaker B: I have never talked about him to anyone except you. [00:21:41] Speaker A: Right. [00:21:41] Speaker B: I'm 100% serious. His dad asked me, oh, what do you think about this Nick Fuentes guy? And I had to look him up and I was like, what is this guy talking about? Okay, so I think that his, his influence is greatly over exaggerated. Especially I think that he's someone who would appeal to a young man who is like more sort of alone against, not in a good Catholic community maybe, you know, has a 9 to 5, goes to work every day at a liberal place, just feels super trapped and sees Him. And he's like, yes, finally, someone who's young, who. He agrees with me on most things. Okay, you know, maybe he's a little crazy, but at least he agrees with me on these things. I think if you are a Nick Fuentes fan, I would say try to find a Catholic community that is that you can just talk to people your age with, because I think that's the biggest thing people want to hear from someone their age. Well, you can hear from people your age just who aren't influencers. You can hear from them just in person. I have the best conversations I have are with just people who are my age at school. And we talk about everything. Like, we talk about. We talk a bunch about just like random theology questions that are really silly, like, which sin is worse? You know, using contraception or cheating on your wife? And it's like, why are we talking about this? But it. That was a six hour conversation. [00:23:19] Speaker A: That's a college. That's what college is for. [00:23:21] Speaker B: That's what. [00:23:22] Speaker A: Right, but was it really a six hour conversation you guys had? [00:23:24] Speaker B: Oh, yeah. And then continued like on and off the next couple days. [00:23:28] Speaker A: What was the general consensus? Cheating on your wife for using contracts, Deception with your wife? Which. What was the. The. Which. Which one kind of one is the worst sin. [00:23:37] Speaker B: So in general, I think it was like 70, 30. Cheating on your wife is worse. [00:23:43] Speaker A: Okay. [00:23:44] Speaker B: But there was. There were good arguments. I will give the other side that. [00:23:47] Speaker A: Because both are awful, you know. [00:23:49] Speaker B: Right. Both are, you know, you're not going to the good place. Right. But anyway, back to. Yeah, this Nick Fuentes guy. I think that people are just sort of. Some people are just at a loss for any sort of companionship. People who are the same age as them, who think the same things as them, so they see someone who is, you know, has a big following and says some things that they really connect with. The same thing happened with Andrew Tate. He said a couple things that people were like, wow, yeah, that's really true. You know, men should be strong, men should work out. And then he was sort of like. And then, yeah, you know, I pimp women all the time. Everyone's like, whoa, okay, that's a little much. All the Catholics, at least. [00:24:41] Speaker A: Yeah. Right. [00:24:42] Speaker B: So I think, yeah, with these guys, they're just. They're flashing the pans. I think like Michael Knowles said this it. With these influencers who are always saying things, really inflammatory things to get famous, it's always a quick thing and then everyone just kind of forgets about them because they don't have anything to really contribute. [00:25:04] Speaker A: Right. [00:25:04] Speaker B: I think it's going to be the. It's probably the same thing with someone like that. [00:25:08] Speaker A: I do notice it's true, though. Like, okay, my generation, we were trained from a very early age that there's certain topics you can't talk about, there's certain words you can't say. And it seems like that's one thing that your generation, I think, more healthily, just says, oh, forget that. We're not going to do that. Because, like, for example, you can't. Like, the best example for my generation is you can never criticize Israel, because if you do, you're anti Semitic, you hate Jews, you're Hitler. And so, like, literally nobody could ever talk about it. And now, fortunately, and I think a lot of this has been driven by younger people. There is like, no, wait a second. Israel is just another country like any other. We can criticize if we want to. It doesn't make us Hitler if we do. And do you think that. Have you seen that? Like, I mean, honestly, I've seen that with you. Like, you will say things to me that I wouldn't. I would be like, oh, I thought we're not allowed to talk about that. You know, in the past, nothing too. Nothing uncatholic. But is that kind of the. The general sense among most people, young people, like, we're not going to have these dumb rules that we can't talk about certain things. [00:26:10] Speaker B: I think when. When a society sets up so many rules of things that you can't talk about, and there's so many taboo topics where it's like, you can't dislike any of these things. I think once you're on the other side of that, you're just like, well, screw this. I'm, you know, I'm gonna do everything they don't want me to do. [00:26:32] Speaker A: Right, right. [00:26:32] Speaker B: Which is a very young. [00:26:35] Speaker A: Yeah, right, right. Yeah. Because, I mean, like, it's just amazing. You can't talk about, like, the role of women in a family, you know, staying at home, things like that. You can't talk about black culture. You can't talk about Israel. You can't. I mean, there's just so many things that you're just not even allowed to say, well, wait a second. Can we have a conversation about this? Which I think that's actually a very healthy thing that's happening there now. Another thing I want to talk about with young people is your entire life has been lived on the Internet. Like, I grew up my first 30 years, basically. I mean, I. I technically started working for an Internet company. I'm part of the problem in 97. So I was 27. Yeah, almost in the third, first 30 years of my life, though. I mean, there was no email, there was no. There was no cell phones, there was no texting websites, stuff like that. But, like, you've never experienced a world without that. How do you think, like, how big a deal is social media? Like, I'm actually surprised how little social media you're on. On include. And, like, same with the other. My other kids, they're not that much, but, like, it seems like young people are on all the time. Is that true? Is it generally true that, like. And I'm asking this particularly in. In view of, like, the Church reaching young people, how much do we really need to be on social media and how much of it's just kind of fake? [00:27:48] Speaker B: Okay, so young people as a whole, like Catholic, non. Mostly non Catholics, are on social media just as much as you think they are and probably way more. [00:28:00] Speaker A: Okay. [00:28:01] Speaker B: Now Catholics, you know, real strong Catholics have this natural sort of cycle where we got into social media and we were like, okay, like, what is this? You know, probably when we were stupid in high school, we got on it a bunch or, you know, first year of college or whatever. And then there's this natural. If you go to college especially, you are hanging out with a group of people and doing things with them, talking with them, and you realize, wow, this is a hundred times better than anything I could ever find on social media. The, you know, the laugh that I get on this stupid video on YouTube is nothing close to, like, the joy that you can experience just with friends. And there's this huge movement among Catholics, among young Catholics, of just like, all right, just forget it. We're getting off all of it because it's addicting. All of my friends, we always talk about, like, all right, we are. You know, this is gonna. We're limiting our social media time to this. So I would say, as far as, like, appealing to young Catholics, I don't know if getting on social media is going to be the best way to do that, because if we're on social media, we. We probably shouldn't be that much. Like. I. I think if you. If you make some Instagram reel to appeal to a young Catholic as, like, like an older Catholic or a bishop or a priest, I just think that there's definite limits to how much that's going to appeal to them. And I think. I think there is a distinction to be made between, like, the Doom scrolling and the podcasts and longer videos and articles, stuff like that. Because really the doom scrolling is what gets you with the social media. That's what'll have you on your phone for just eight, nine hours a day. And that's what I think young Catholics are really trying to cut out. [00:30:14] Speaker A: What are the podcasts other than the Crisis Point Podcast, of course. [00:30:19] Speaker B: Right. [00:30:19] Speaker A: What are, what are the podcasts that are probably most popular among young Catholics, whether they're Catholic or not? Kind of. Who are the people you mentioned? Michael Knowles. I know, but like, who are kind of the, the podcasters that people really kind of listen to the most? [00:30:35] Speaker B: I mean, probably Joe Rogan would be one of them. Michael Knowles, Matt Walsh, to a certain extent, those two. Yeah. Other than that, I'm not really sure. I think Taylor Marshall probably as well. It's not, it's not like a huge variety. [00:30:58] Speaker A: Right. [00:30:59] Speaker B: But some combination. [00:31:00] Speaker A: But, but pockets are pretty. Like most people are listening to podcasts. [00:31:05] Speaker B: Like younger people a decent amount. Yeah, definitely. [00:31:07] Speaker A: Because I know people. I mean, one's your brother in law who is not on social media at all, but he listens to podcasts. [00:31:12] Speaker B: Right. That's what I try to do. Right. For the most part, I'll go through like, I'll be like, okay, this month, you know, no social media at all, but still have podcasts, especially because like you can get podcasts on Spotify and you're not going to be scrolling on Spotify. There's no videos on there. So. So it is easy to just only go to that. [00:31:33] Speaker A: Right, Right. Okay. Now we brought, we brought up the liturgy before, but I want to go ahead and just try to get you in trouble. Me in trouble, somebody in trouble. Like the whole Novus Ordo vs Traditional Latin Mass debate and discussion. A lot of people say. And I've said it, I bet you, I've said. I don't know for sure I've said it, but I bet you I've said it that like traditional at Mass would be a great way to bring young people in. That young. In fact, if you look at your typical TLM community, it, it tends to be younger people, people in their 20s, 30s, young young adults who are not married yet or just got married, just started having kids. I mean, do you think that's true? Do you think like in your experience of seeing, I mean, not only yourself, but like your friends, things like that, do you think the traditional at Mass is a way to bring in young people? Or does it matter? Or is it just like it or it doesn't really matter, like, is it? I mean, the liturgy wars are huge in my generation. I mean, what are they like for you guys? [00:32:31] Speaker B: They're pretty big. And I think that the biggest way to bring in young people is. I think that that's something that the younger generation, like, really respects and cares about. And I think that obviously we both know that the average TLM is a lot more reverent. So I think that the, the Traditional Latin Mass is probably the best way to bring in young people. I, I do think that there are reverent Novus Ordo Masses because all of my, all of my friends at college are always like, well, you know, because I'm always trying to get them to go to the Traditional Latin Mass, and they're always like, well, you know, there's this Novus Ordo and it's so reverent. It's like, well, why did you have to clarify that? [00:33:19] Speaker A: Yeah, right. [00:33:21] Speaker B: I just said it was a Traditional Latin Mass. I didn't even have to say it was, Reverend. [00:33:24] Speaker A: Yeah, right, right, exactly. So, and, and there's Studentville. There's just the one TLM a week, right. On Sunday. [00:33:33] Speaker B: Yeah. So there's one Traditional Latin Mass on Sunday in Steubenville, and then there is one over in Pittsburgh. [00:33:42] Speaker A: All right. [00:33:42] Speaker B: That a good amount of people go to. [00:33:45] Speaker A: Right. Institute. It's an institute. Christ the King parish, right? I think so. And I think that also kind of ties in what we're saying about young women versus young men, young men being more conservative. Like, I found, like at our teal and parish of the young people, there's a surprising number of young men and like, you know, sing of single young adults, like, way more than you like back in the day, you know, sound like the old man. I am. It's like literally every young person, Everybody in their 20s who was single was a woman at Mass. I mean, there was like no men hardly in there who were single and going to Mass back then, but now it's like there's a lot of young men, maybe even more young men at tlm. And I think that's because the problem. [00:34:25] Speaker B: Is that at a Novus Ordo Mass, there are a lot of things that typically happen that will sort of make it sort of anti masculinity. And I just think that from the songs to the way that it's celebrated, the way that the homily is, the way that the priest carries himself, the way that the priest talks, like, there's so many things that can be sort of just like subtly anti. Masculine. I also think that the emphasis on the mass being a meal as opposed to a sacrifice is something that takes away from like, I think that every man wants to be. Every Catholic man wants to be sort of a soldier for Christ and to kneel before him as his soldier. And I just think that that is kind of missing at the Novus order. There's not that appeal for a man. [00:35:28] Speaker A: Right? Yeah. I mean, I think that's a great point about the whole meal versus sacrifice I hadn't thought of before. But men are attracted to calls for sacrifice, and a woman is going to be attracted to, like, let's have a meal. And that's not demeaning either one, because God made us like this. It's not that we're saying one is. Is, you know, men are better than women like that, but that we're very different. I've told the story before and I'm going to tell it again here, and I hope it's actually true because if you correct me, I'm going to feel bad since I've told it numerous times. When we. When we were at our Novasor parish growing up and you were going there and everything, you never once expressed any interest in being an server. And the parish we went to had meant boys and girls as altar servers. We then moved and started going to. And we moved right after your first communion and we started going to TM parish, the fraternity parish. And literally, like within you. You seem mesmerized by watching this. The altar boys and their kind of militaristic way they do things at tlm. And then you, all of a sudden you wanted to be an altar boy. And I just always thought that that was like, very telling, that that all of a sudden got you interested when you saw a tm, you had very little interest before that. Is that a true story? [00:36:35] Speaker B: That is a true story. And of course, as many people know, if you look up altar boy on Google, I am the second picture. [00:36:44] Speaker A: You're second? I thought you were first. [00:36:46] Speaker B: Somebody got me. [00:36:47] Speaker A: Oh, man. I wrote an article about altar boys on my personal blog years ago, and I had a picture. [00:36:54] Speaker B: No, no, no, no. Don't say that part. [00:36:57] Speaker A: Oh, no. [00:36:58] Speaker B: Just the fact that I was an altar boy made me. [00:37:01] Speaker A: Okay. [00:37:02] Speaker B: That go up the rank. [00:37:03] Speaker A: Yes, that's what it was. It must have been. I didn't know you got bumped the second, though, because I know you were first for a while. [00:37:07] Speaker B: I was. That was my fun fact when I. [00:37:09] Speaker A: Went to college wasn't if you search on Ultra Boy and Google Images, the first image is. And in fact, there was some. Wasn't some video you sent me about altar boys. And one of them. [00:37:18] Speaker B: Oh, yeah, you. [00:37:19] Speaker A: Because you're gonna find it. I think Taylor Marshall had some video he created, and he had a picture in there and didn't know it was you when he did it. So there we go. He is the exemplar of. Of altar boys. Not. You retired, though. You. You retired. [00:37:33] Speaker B: I am retired, yeah. [00:37:34] Speaker A: Yeah. I mean, that was. That was a sad day for us, but understandable. Okay, so now what I want to bring up is the topic of dating. [00:37:43] Speaker B: Boy. [00:37:44] Speaker A: Yeah. And so I have heard from many people of complaints about the dating scene among Catholics. I'm not talking, like, we all know the dating scene among, like, pagans of your age is just a disaster, but it has. It was a disaster. My. In my day too, because it's just. It's paganism. But, like, there's this real belief that, like, you'll hear young women say catholic women. Like, I can't find any good Catholic men. And you'll sometimes hear Catholic men saying the same thing. Young men. And so, like, what is. [00:38:19] Speaker B: What are. [00:38:20] Speaker A: I mean, you're going to give the man's perspective. We should have had your fiance come on and, you know, she could give the woman. [00:38:24] Speaker B: You still should. She wants to be on. [00:38:26] Speaker A: Okay, maybe one day Faith. I'll get you on. But basically, though, kind of what is the. Why don't you. What's the dating scene, for example, at Franciscan University? [00:38:36] Speaker B: Yeah. So one of the. I think that the biggest thing is that young men and young women at Franciscan especially, they do want to get married. That's just a fact. Married. So you'd think that, you know, that would work out. [00:38:53] Speaker A: Right? [00:38:53] Speaker B: Um, and I. But I think the biggest problem is that the men do not pursue enough, and I think that they are afraid to pursue. And, like, I'll see just a guy, like a friend of mine, and he likes a girl a lot, and he finds out that she likes him back, and he's like, wow. I. Maybe this will work out, like. And then that's just, you know, maybe it'll. Maybe God will make it happen. [00:39:24] Speaker A: Oh, geez, fellas, what are we doing? [00:39:28] Speaker B: What are we doing? You have go after her. I just. That that's probably the thing that irritates me the most about the dating scene is when a guy does not pursue enough. [00:39:38] Speaker A: I think there's. Any young woman listening right now is probably saying, amen, brother. [00:39:42] Speaker B: Yeah. As well. [00:39:43] Speaker A: But there is this problem of, like, Even like the, the me too feminism starts to creep any into the Catholic world. [00:39:51] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:39:52] Speaker A: That young men are afraid. [00:39:54] Speaker B: Here's the thing though, here's the thing you pursue and if the lady does not find that attractive, that is not the lady for you. [00:40:02] Speaker A: Right. [00:40:03] Speaker B: Also the other thing disengaged that at that point, if she didn't find it, if she was like, oh, wow, you're like coming after me so hard, like, chill out, man. Like, all right, well, move on. [00:40:14] Speaker A: Right. [00:40:14] Speaker B: I just think that you have to pursue initially and if, if she's too feminist for that, she's too feminist for you. Now once you start dating, I think the, the next problem is that once people start dating is they are trying to see if their partner is like the perfect match for them. You know, you have to be perfectly compatible and you can't ever get into any fights or else, you know, how could we ever get married. And I think that you just have to understand that how different each person is. And once you have the big, you know, three or four things of, okay, they are Catholic, they are serious about their faith just the same as you are, or if they're not Catholic, then you have to, you know, be clear with them, I'm not going to marry you until you become Catholic. And then they want to have kids. And you have similar views on raising kids once you have those things. And I think that, you know, whether the woman works or not in after you have kids is also something that should come up. Once you have those things, you can work everything else out. You can, you know, be a Reds fan and marry a Yankees fan. It's hard. [00:41:41] Speaker A: Struggling. It's hard. [00:41:42] Speaker B: It's. I'm not, I never said any of this was easy. That was not my claim. I'm just saying that you can work almost anything else out. And I think that a lot of times it's just like they're in. People are in a relationship and even though, you know all of those things are true, they're just like second guessing everything. Don't know, you know, whether or not they should propose. And I just think that it's sad to see because they're looking for something that they're never going to find on earth, which is, you know, a perfect partner for them. It's just. It doesn't exist. [00:42:18] Speaker A: Yeah, I think what I've seen is like, I think you're right about the men. They need to be a little bit more bold, aggressive, whatever you want to call it. Just like, you know, just have confidence and, and you Know, if you get, if you, you're told no, you just move on to the. And try again or you keep trying. I mean, the best man in my wedding, he was turned down, I think three times by hit and it was a studentville match. Three times by his. By this girl. And eventually now they're married and married. [00:42:48] Speaker B: That's one way to do it. [00:42:49] Speaker A: That, that also can happen. But, you know, get the signals, man. If they're, if they're really turned off, just move on. But I do think it seems like I her stories of young women who. They have an ideal of what a Catholic man supposed to be like, which you just can't fulfill. I mean, it's like they're. I think I like what you said was just keep it to the basics. Like, you know, you're. You want to be compatible, obviously you want to like each other. You wouldn't have been pursuing each other if you weren't. Didn't like each other. But if you have the basics, that is going to work out. What about the idea, though, just of. As you know, in our family, we're not big fans of the idea of dating without the purpose of looking towards marriage. Like dating a situation where marriage isn't on the table. So you don't. Like, we don't let our kids date before they're 18 for this reason. And you waited what, like a day after you turned 18? No, it was a few months. It wasn't just a day. But like the idea of like dating without marriage explicitly on the table, like, I think that's unhealthy. I mean, and, but that's the way everybody did it back in my day was they would date without. I think about marriage and I think some people still do. What, what do you think about the wisdom of that? [00:44:02] Speaker B: I think that. I think that it is. It's silly to have rules like, oh, you can't be dating for longer than this before you get married, or you have to propose after three months or two weeks or, you know, the 40th date and it's like, all right, here we go. But I think that the biggest thing is there need to be discussions between the two people. I think you can't just be going into your second or third year of dating and be like, well, we haven't really talked about marriage, you know, but one day I'll muster up the courage and see if that's going to happen. But yeah, I think that having, having a purpose and having the, the goal of marriage in mind. Like, for example, when you Start dating a person. I think that there should be a thought in your head of, if this were to work out, this is when we'd probably get married. As opposed to if you are, let's say you're out of college, you know, you both have jobs, and you start dating them if there's not even a thought of that in your head, or if you bring that up to them and they are very like, oh, what are you. Like, come on, we just started dating. Like, it's only been three months. Why are you talking about that? Like, that's kind of a. To use term, it's kind of a red flag to not even be thinking about marriage. Because if you really love someone, then you are immediately thinking about marriage. [00:45:36] Speaker A: Right. [00:45:36] Speaker B: If they aren't thinking about marriage at all with you, if they're offended that you even brought up marriage, even if it's only like a couple months in, then I don't know if that's a good idea. [00:45:46] Speaker A: No. No. Okay, so last topic I want to talk about is college. Now, you're about to finish college. You went to France, you're going to Franciscan, as we already said. But, like, in my day, everybody felt like they had to go to college. That was just required almost. But I see a lot of people who are of your age who are not looking into college. They're, you know, maybe getting a trade, like electrician or something like that. What do you think is the value of, like, well, first of all, let me just ask. What do you think was the value of college going to college for you? [00:46:20] Speaker B: Yeah, so I went to college to get a. To be able to have a degree so I could get a job and to find a wife. Check, check. [00:46:32] Speaker A: But married yet. You're still disengaged. [00:46:34] Speaker B: Found one, though. But the thing is, I think that there is the reason that people are starting to be like, you know, I don't need to go to college is because college is viewed now as just a piece of paper that will help you get a job. And I think that if you view. If you. If that's the only thing you view it as, then you don't need to go to college. But I do think you need to go to college because I don't think that that is what it is in most cases, but I think that it's really important to. By the way, if you're going to a school like Ohio State or something like, no, you don't need to go there. You can just. Just find a job if you are going there, you know, Get a degree that will get you a job or whatever. But I think that the college is useful in that it can teach you a higher education, especially in theology. And I think that if you go to a Catholic school, I think that almost everyone should go to a Catholic school if they can afford it and, and take a lot of theology classes. Like, for example, I have a good friend who is a criminal justice major, but like, every class that he's taken outside of his major has been a theology class. And he has, you know, he's taken as many classes, has as much knowledge as most of, like the theology majors at my school. So I think that's a really good example of, like, maybe going to college and getting a theology degree might not be the best idea unless you're really serious about being a theology teacher. But I think that it is a really good idea to go to college to get. Learn more about theology, develop this liberal arts, understanding, history, philosophy, etc, because I think that you are really missing out if you only do trade school and don't. And don't have any of that education. And I know that dad has actually not heard this opinion from me before. This is a new opinion. So he's getting pretty shocked. No, just like what I said. But I do think it's really important to get that higher education. And I think there is like a path that you could do where you go to trade school and then you learn those things. You know, the St. Paul center has classes, stuff like that. [00:49:05] Speaker A: Well, of course, the College of St. Joseph there in Steubenville. Yeah, they're just getting started. We interviewed, I interviewed Jacob a while back who, who founded that, and they, they have their trade school, but they have the theology and philosophy courses as well. Right. So I mean, hopefully that might be something as well for people who are more into that. So. Yeah, that's interesting. And I think, like, it's interesting for, for my perspective as a parent. Like, the first four of our kids, you know, have all gone to college and three of them met their spouses at college and they're all great. And so I think that is, you know, that's obviously something that we value a lot, but it does. I do wonder sometimes, though, at the cost of it, you know, if you're really getting. And I think what you're saying, like these other colleges, like going to Ohio State or going to some, you know, college, a bad Catholic college, and spend the money, it just seems to be a complete waste of money. [00:50:00] Speaker B: Yeah, don't do that. But I think if you Go to, you know, Franciscan Belmont Abbey from what I've heard. Christendom. I don't like Christendom because I'm from Franciscan. But you know, they're better than 99 of schools. [00:50:14] Speaker A: Benedictine. [00:50:14] Speaker B: Benedictine, yeah. I think it is worth it. And I think sometimes people need to sort of chill out about the money. Honestly, like if you're $30,000 in debt, but you, like, you can work your way out of that with a college degree. I think that sometimes, like I've talked. I talked to people in high school who are like, oh, like I can't go to college. Like I can't afford it at all. Like, I just think that it is an extremely formative experience that if you can do it is just extremely helpful throughout your life. [00:50:54] Speaker A: This is something new I've learned. Yeah, I'm not as pro college. Yeah, you are. I'm not. I mean, obviously I'm very thankful for the. The four oldest kids going and getting a lot good education. [00:51:04] Speaker B: Well, dad hasn't been to college in a while. [00:51:07] Speaker A: Yeah, I like college. I mean, I went. I met your mother at college, so. [00:51:11] Speaker B: Exactly. [00:51:12] Speaker A: I mean there is. So I'm not anti college anyway. Okay. Anything else about being a Gen Z Catholic? [00:51:20] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:51:21] Speaker A: That we need to know. [00:51:22] Speaker B: I would say that Gen Z Catholics. So this is a new topic, but I think that Gen Z Catholics need stronger leadership from older Catholic men and from priests out how to deal with the struggles of pornography and sexual sin. [00:51:40] Speaker A: Because dropping that one on a second. [00:51:42] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. Didn't. But because I think that that is one of the most prevalent sins, especially probably the most prevalent mortal sin among young Catholic men. And I also think the other thing is even among young Catholic women, I think they are also struggling with sexual sins more than ever. Pornography to a certain extent, but also just like sleeping around. Even Catholic women, like, this is still. It's. We're not immune to it at all. Just because. Just because you say you're Catholic, just because you go to mass every Sunday doesn't mean you don't have these temptations. [00:52:16] Speaker A: Right. [00:52:17] Speaker B: And I think it's something that is sort of a taboo among like older Catholics that don't. They don't really want to address it or talk about it. But I think it's something that needs to be like discussed. [00:52:31] Speaker A: How do you do it, though? Because here's the problem. Father can't just all of a sudden is homily definitely, you know, with young children and everything around, start talking about pornography and the dangers in any type of anything other than Just like, allusions to it. So how can. Like, if a priest is listening this or bishop, and we do have some. We definitely have a lot of priests solicited in, some bishops. Like, what can they do to help young men deal? Because it is. It's. It's unbelievably evil of our day. So what can they do? [00:53:01] Speaker B: I think it's. I think they can sort of. They can research how to combat it and help. Help anyone who confesses it in the confessional. And I think that there can be more like. I think one of the. Like, Matt Frad wrote a book about it, and I think there could be more things like that. I just think that pornography is like one of those sins where once you commit it, you feel completely alone. You feel like there's no. Like, there's nobody with you. There's no one to sort of hold you accountable in the moment. So I think that. I know that, yeah, I don't think that it should be necessarily preached from the pulpit just for prudential reasons. But I do think that there could be more things on college campuses, especially where everyone is, you know, of age, and also more like more stuff in the. The Catholic, sort of the traditional Catholic world about it. [00:54:09] Speaker A: If you have a men's group, you can obviously address it there more explicitly. So it is a real struggle. And I think we have to, you know, definitely be praying for young men who are, you know, I mean, because the fact is, it's everywhere. I mean, the problem is. [00:54:22] Speaker B: And also young women, because they are. They're afflicted by pornography as well. And they're also. They're afflicted because there's more young women than you would think who are watching pornography. But there's also the way that men look at young women after they watch pornography makes young women want to wear more immodest clothes. It makes them feel like they have to do that to have garner any attention from men. [00:54:50] Speaker A: I mean, it objectifies women. You know, that that's the biggest problem. And so men begin to look at women in a degrading way. Even good Catholic men, you might look at, you know, and they. They have expectations that are unrealistic and. And just. Yeah, it's a pervasive sin that, that such a script. Did you hear that? I think next month pornhub is. Is blocked in Florida or illegal, something like that. Florida, they pass something. So I know some other states have done that, but. But they're doing things to try to. To shut that down, which is great. So. Well, that's good. I'm glad you brought that up. And I do think that, you know, priests and bishops and even Catholic leaders, man, you know, really should be doing what they can to address that. But it's, that's the thing. It's. That's why it's a great sin from Satan's point of view. It's. You can't talk about from the point that explicitly, but I think, I think even giving advice in the confessional, being able to know kind of what to say, obviously. [00:55:46] Speaker B: Yeah. Because if you're in the confessional and you confess that, you know, you confess, I watched pornography and I was rude to my sister, and then the priest is like, well, don't be rude to your sister anyway, you know, three hail marries and say your act of contrition. [00:56:00] Speaker A: Right. [00:56:00] Speaker B: That's just demoralizing because you feel like, wow. Well, like he didn't even know what to say to me. He didn't. I'm just alone in this. [00:56:08] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think that's, that's. I'm glad you brought up because young men and, you know, afflicts all ages men, but young men need to know that it's a struggle for everybody and it's something that, you know, everybody is, has to fight. And, and my advice has always been, I remember I told you this from when you time, you were very, very young. You had no idea why I was saying this. I always said, but just like always go to, go to confession regularly. Just go to confession a lot. Because I mean, the Lord, you know, he forgives and we all fall down. But the most important thing is that we get back up and going to confessions, getting back up. So just. That's the, that's the most important thing, of course, above all. So. Okay, anything else, like, heavy you want to drop on me there at the, you know, as we're wrapping up? [00:56:52] Speaker B: Well, this is pretty heavy. The Reds have no chance next year. [00:56:56] Speaker A: So you said they had 2% chance. [00:56:58] Speaker B: I, during this talk, I sort of dropped since my mind was opened up so intellectually I realized they have no chance. [00:57:05] Speaker A: I'm still giving them the 2% chance. Go red. So. Okay. Well, thanks everybody for joining us. I really appreciate it. Until next time, everybody. God love.