Did Online Trads Cause the TLM Crackdown?

[00:00:17] Ever since Pope Francis started to restrict the traditional latin mass, many have said that the reason for it is due to prominent online traditionalists. Is this true? And if so, what does this say about the pope? That's what we're talking about today on crisis point. Hello, I'm Eric Samwitz, your host, Aaron, chief of Crisis magazine. Before we get started, won't you smash that, like, button? Like, Pope Francis seems to be smashing the traditional latin mass. Want you to subscribe to the channel if you can. I'd appreciate that. Let other people know about it. Also subscribe to our email newsletter. Just go to crisismagazine.com putting your email address, and get our article sent to you every day, two articles a day. You can also follow us on social media at crisismag. Okay, so when the, when Pope Francis first began to institute restrictions on the traditional masters, you know, Custodus, of course, 2021. But even before that, when rumors were happening that he wanted to, and he was kind of looking at traditionalist groups, the word was that the reason for this is due to his discontent with traditionalists, particularly some online traditionalists like Taylor Marshall or Pierre Kwasneski. Some people said, even me, I don't know how you could think that. I'm the nicest guy I know. So of course, it couldn't be me, right? [00:01:37] But seriously, it became almost a joke that Taylor Marshall, for example, is the reason that they're taking away the traditional mass. [00:01:45] And I'll be honest, I just always thought that was a joke at first, because I thought there's no way, first of all, that Francis is monitoring people like Taylor Marshall or me or Peter Kwazniewski or Michael Matt or whoever. [00:02:01] There's just no way. They're not, they're not spending their time at the Vatican checking out our Twitter feeds or our YouTube channels. [00:02:10] I also thought it was a joke because you couldn't tell, you can't tell me that they would be that petty, that there be, that they would actually be against the traditional, like want to shut down the traditional mass because they didn't like what some people online were saying, particularly some american traditionalists. I just thought there's just no way that they could be that petty. [00:02:37] Well, it's becoming more and more clear that actually they are, that it actually is one of the reasons, or maybe the primary reason that they're giving, at least why the traditional mass is being restricted is because of their monitoring. People like Taylor Marshall, Pierre Kwazneski, Michael Matt, myself, other people like that, and they don't like what they're seeing. And so as kind of a punishment, they are, they're shutting it down. That. And so, I mean, the word is that there's actually vatican officials who are monitoring accounts like this one and others and reporting to Francis. And so Francis is, I don't think Francis himself, by the way, is checking Twitter or anything like that, but they're, they're reporting like his knowledge of what's going on in America among traditionalists is due to what his people are telling him based upon what they're seeing online. [00:03:33] Now, it's probably true that I don't think they've ever attended a traditional latin mass, parish or traditional latin mass and said, I haven't actually gotten the know these people. But the fact is, is that they're, they're supposedly monitoring us online. Now, before I get into this, the point, I just want to make one aside. And that is, I think it's hilarious how people who try to defend the pope saying he doesn't really know all the details of Father James Martin and his ministry to LGBTQ ABCDEFG people, that really, it's. It's, you know, he doesn't really understand what he's doing. And so when he promotes Father James Martin or says good things about him, it's. It's more because he doesn't. Not fully aware what he's doing. And yet at the same breath, they say he's fully aware of what everything that Taylor Marshall tweets. And so it just kind of, you can't have it one way or the other. Either he knows about all this or he doesn't know about anything. [00:04:36] So that's just one point I wanted to make. But more importantly, is it true? Well, what I think is important to note, first of all, is I found a lot of Catholics, at least a lot of Catholics online actually agree with the idea behind it. They think it's okay. They think it's a legitimate justification. I've seen this over and over again. We're Catholics. I mean, I'm talking about even conservative Catholics will be like, well, honestly, if I was Pope Francis, I might do the same thing based upon what I see here online. [00:05:11] And I've seen this over and over again that people say, yeah, it is because the online trads, it is because of people like Taylor Marshall that this is happening and it's well deserved. Something has to be done about these people. [00:05:25] And so we need, you know, Pope Francis is justified. I've seen this multiple times. [00:05:32] And so to me, it just, that is mind boggling. [00:05:38] Now, I will say, though, I do, I do think it's legitimate to criticize the behavior of trads online at times. [00:05:53] I mean, there's no question. There's a certain segment that is often angry and judgmental, does not act in a very catholic manner. [00:06:03] They attack other people. [00:06:07] Anything you say, anything a person who doesn't tend to church on that mass says, they immediately turn into an attack on the novus ordo or some promulgation of the TLM. I mean, no matter what the person says, they will go to the extremes of saying that de novo sorto isn't valid. That's just simply a free, masonic protestant invention. [00:06:29] And, you know, then, of course, you have the trad segment that says Francis isn't a valid pope. [00:06:39] You know, so I get that. I get that. Like, I've experienced it. I mean, I'm often called a semi trad by trads because they don't, like, I'm not going whole hog or ever. And so they're nasty and mean to me. I don't care. I'm not a victim. I always think it's weird when people complain about people being mean to them online. Don't be online then. If you don't want people to be mean to you, just don't go. Don't go in public, and then you'll solve that problem. [00:07:07] But, like. So I get the idea that, yes, there are mean and judgmental trads. Now, I would also say that the vast, vast, vast, vast majority of those people, anonymous accounts. And I'm not saying you can just discount it to mean that doesn't mean they're real, but the reality. But the fact is, in a non account, there's just no way to know the background of the person. It could very well be somebody who does not believe what they're saying. They're just doing it to undermine the position, or they're just doing it for the thrill of it. They're just doing it to be a trolleye. [00:07:45] I do think there's a decent percentage of anonymous accounts online, on Twitter and other places that don't actually believe what they're posting. They're just doing it to stir up agitation, to stir up anger, to troll people, things of that nature. Now, some of them, I do think, believe it. Some of the non accounts do believe what they're posting. But the fact is, there's no way to know if the non account is some 14 year old kid in his mom's basement who just, you know, has social problems or if it's a 40 year old father of five who's got a respectable job. I mean, there is a difference between those two people. Some 14 year old posting, you know, I was going to say the word, but as a family friendly podcast, so I won't posting certain things online, you know, to be nasty, that's not like a statement on the state of traditionalism or anything like that. [00:08:40] And so I do think that that's something to note. If you look at the actual what, like, for example, what Taylor Marshall, Pierre Wozniaski or people like that say, it's not that. It's not the mean, nasty stuff. Yes, they will be at times very blunt, very direct, but it's not the same thing as some, a non account saying nasty stuff to people. And another point is, is that this isn't like reserved to traditionalists. I don't know why people think that, like, traditional is the only people who do this. I've seen it everywhere. I've seen it in groups. I've been in part online groups I've been part of that have nothing to do with Catholicism, where you get a nasty segment of people. And that's just the way it is. I see it. I get attacked all the time by Novus Ordo attendees in a nasty way. Again, I don't care. [00:09:29] But, so I'm just saying, though, the point is, let's not reserve it to just traditionalist. It is a, it's frankly part of the fall, and so it's going to, you know, it's going to be out there. So the point is, is like, the point is, should Francis shut down the traditional mass or restrict it because of online traditionalists? Let's grant the supposition that that's why he's doing it. In a minute I'll talk about why I don't think that's actually true. [00:10:01] It's terrible, terrible theology to shut down an ancient rite of the catholic church because you don't like what some of its attendees are doing. [00:10:14] Think about that for just a moment. [00:10:16] The traditional latin mass has been with us for over a thousand years. [00:10:22] There have been some awful people, awful people who have attended the traditional latin mass over those over thousand years. I mean, I'm just talking some, you know, murderers, adulterers, rapists, you name it. They've all attended church latin mass because that was the only mass for anybody who claimed to be catholic. And so a lot of, some would attend and would do this. So should you have shut it down because of that? Of course not. [00:10:51] The idea that you would shut down a liturgy because you don't like what a few of the people are saying, especially if it's an ancient liturgy, is just frankly ludicrous. [00:11:05] Even if, for example, Taylor Marshall was going out there and saying was an axe murderer, and he said it's because of TLM, I am now going to go out and kill people with my axe, or whatever the case may be, even then, it wouldn't justify shutting down the traditional latin mass. The reason is because the traditional mass has been proven to be a means of holiness. [00:11:31] There's a reason it's been with the church for over a thousand years, because the church has seen this works. This does help people grow in grace. It helps people grow closer to Jesus Christ. It helps people grow in holiness. [00:11:46] If it didn't, and if you're a Catholic who acts like it doesn't do that, you are basically undermining, undercutting the infallibility of the church, the indefectibility of the church, the ability of the church to bring people to Christ, because it's through the traditional latin mass that most people in the Roman Catholic Church have been brought closer to Jesus Christ. So to think that because you don't like the online activity of a few people, which by itself is just ridiculous to think that, but just because the idea of a few, what a few online people do, you will then shut down this instrument of holiness that's been around for over a thousand years. I mean, just try to think about for a second how ridiculous that is. [00:12:38] And furthermore, we just. If it's good for the goose, it's good for the gander. What about the Novus ordo mass in the 60 years? 50. 50 years? Sorry, a little bit over 50 years we've had the Novus ordo. How many people who attend that do not believe the teachings of the Catholic Church, do not follow the teachings Catholic Church have left the Catholic Church after attending it, have spouted off major heresies who. People who celebrate. Father James Martin, for example, we have a long list of problematic people who have attended the Novus Ordo. And I would argue, proportionally speaking, there's no question that the proportions of good to bad, so to speak, of people who attend the traditional mass over the centuries and the people who have attended the novus Orda over the past 50 years, it's not even close that there's a much higher percentage of people who are heretics, basically in their hearts, at least in their interviews, who attend the novus Ordo. Should we shut down the novus Ordo because of that I'd also say, I think you could argue that the nosor, at least the way it is celebrated in practice, commonly does more to lead people into heresy than the traditional mass. I'm not saying it directly leads into it. What I'm saying, though, is it fosters an environment that will allow people to embrace heresy. Those who attend. What I would say is your typical novus ordo celebration at your typical parish in America. [00:14:25] Should we shut down the nova? Sort of. Because that maybe that'd be a lot. You'd have a lot stronger argument for that than you would. You don't like what few people say online, so you're going to shut down the traditional latin mass. [00:14:37] So the whole idea that we would shut down an ancient rite of the church that has been proven time and time again over a long period of time to draw people closer to Jesus Christ, because we don't like what a few of its attendees are saying to about us online, just shows how petty, how petty it is. If that's really the reason, if that's really what it is, if it's true that Pope Francis sees what a Taylor Marshall or somebody like that, or Michael Matt says online and says, I got to shut down this, this, the latin mass because of it. [00:15:15] I mean, that's a huge insult to Pope Francis to think he would do that, that he would be that petty. [00:15:21] So I just have a hard time imagining that's really what it is. [00:15:27] Because here's the thing. [00:15:30] If there are individuals who attend the traditional latin mass that you have a problem with, you deal with those individuals individually. [00:15:40] If you think a Taylor Marshall or Pierre Kwazneski or Eric Sammons or whoever, problem. You know what you do if you're the pope? You contact the bishop, the ordinary of that person, you say, hey, listen, you need to have a meeting with him. [00:15:58] You need to set him straight. And if he doesn't set straight, you need to apply disciplinary measures to him, up to and including excommunication. [00:16:09] One of the actual. I don't think I. By the way, the pope should have excommunicated Archbishop Vigano for prudential reasons. He definitely did things that deserve excommunication on paper. But because the fact that he does not, the pope ignores everybody else and focuses on this, that wasn't a good thing. That being said, it did give clarity. It was focused on a single person doing certain specific things. And it actually, in the excommunication, it gave a defense of why they were doing it. [00:16:45] And here's. I think this is the key point. [00:16:48] Vegan O was excommunicated. And they had excommunicatable things that he said and did that led to it. And they could write it all out. Now, you could argue with whether or not this really should have been. You know, they should have gone with it, whatever, but they actually had a whole defense of why they were doing it. That's the way it should be under the law, under canonical law, as much as civil law. We're not a lawless church. If somebody does something you think is excommunicatable, you go through the process, you prove your point. You make sure everybody knows. Otherwise, it just looks like it's the whims of a dictator. [00:17:24] So if, for example, you think you're the pope and you think Taylor Marshall did something deserving of punishment, then I think what you do is you lay it out on the line. You give the person opportunity to repent, to take back, or to explain. [00:17:41] And then if they don't and you feel like it's justifiable to excommunicate them, then you would do that. You don't touch though, a liturgy because of what some of the people do. [00:17:51] You go after the person directly and try to get them to change their ways. [00:17:57] To be clear, by the way, I don't think anybody like Taylor Marshall, Peter Kwazneski, Michael Matt, myself, anybody like that has done anything deserving of punishment. But at the same time, if we were told specific offenses, we could at least address them. We could explain them. Maybe they misunderstood what we were saying. Maybe we didn't say it in the best way, and we should. And we should explain better what we meant. Maybe we said something wrong, even, and we could then say, okay, that was wrong. [00:18:27] I do not believe that was true. I mean, all those things are possible if you actually talk to the individual. But by just simply shutting down the liturgy, what you're doing is you're basically. It's guilt by association. Everybody now who attends traditional at mass looks like they're potentially guilty. And that's how they're treated by some Catholics, particularly progressive Catholics, like, basically, if you attend the traditional mass, you're questionable in your loyalties just because you attend. Even though those of us who actually attend traditional at Mass know the vast majority don't keep up with church politics, they don't keep up. They don't have, like, these strong opinions against Pope Francis. They're just like. They kind of ignore mostly, but they just go about their. Their daily life trying to live as holy Catholics. That's why they attend. [00:19:13] And if, for example, you think somebody in the, in the movement, in traditional movement is wrong and you go after them directly in the sense that you, you try to, you try to get them to repent of, discipline them, explain what it is, all that stuff that also is helpful for others in the traditional catholic movement. If you're really trying to get them on board, then if they said, okay, here's what this person did, and that's what they do with Vigano, here's what, let's say Pierre Kwasniewski did and he didn't repent of it, well, then people know, okay, now I know exactly what the problem is. It's not just this generic, oh, there's all these people, you know, all these people are. Are guilty by association because they attend the church. [00:19:56] So that that really is the way it should be handled. It's the way it's always been handled. Never heads. There has never been a case in church history where a pope or anybody said, let's shut down a liturgy because we don't like what some of the people in the liturgy are attending. [00:20:11] I mean, it's just silly. I mean, I think there's an argument be made, by the way, that the pope has no authority to shut down the traditional mass. But I'm not even going to go into that tonight. Today. I just wanted to mention, let's assuming he does, never would a pope have considered shutting down a mass, a liturgy because of that, because of what some of its attendees might say or do, all that being said. So I've, you know, spoke for, what, 20 minutes now on all this and debunking this idea that you should shut down the traditional mass because what some of his attendees say and that, you know, because what they say online, they're going after it. I will say, I think there's some truth in this, that this is why the pope's doing this and I understand why he's doing it. Not in a good way for the pope. I understand it. Here's the reality. [00:21:07] The attendees, now, I want you to listen to the whole context, what I'm about to say here, because it's going to sound crazy at first. [00:21:16] The attendees of the traditional latin mass versus innovus ordo, often, practically speaking, practice different religions. [00:21:28] What I mean by that is this. [00:21:31] At your typical Novus ordo, I'm not talking about your unicorn novus Ordo's. I'm not talking about your more conservative Novus Ordo parishes. I'm not talking about the people like, you know, a good novus ordo parish, where they really do believe what the church has always taught. They follow it faithfully. They want pass on the deposit of faith. I'm talking about your average american catholic parish. [00:21:52] The way they practice the faith, it's different. It's a different theology, it's a different religion than how it's practiced at a traditional latin mass parish. [00:22:03] And by different religion. Let me be clear. I'm not actually saying it's not catholic and we're catholic and all that. What I'm saying, though, is religion in the generic sense, religion being simply the practices one does in participating in their faith. So, for example, their worship services, how they pray, what their pious acts are, things like that. [00:22:26] Because if you go to a typical catholic parish, what you will see is a religion that's mostly focused on being nice, being ecumenical, believing most religions are essentially equal, thinking that the crux of Catholicism is not being mean and accepting and accompanying people, never calling anybody to repentance, never calling anybody to change their life, never really calling out sin. [00:23:02] That is what is practiced at your typical american Catholic parish. We may not like it, but it's just the reality that is what is practiced. [00:23:13] That is not true of your typical traditional latin mass parish. And often, like, I will be clear again, at your kind of unicorn and more conservative novus oro parishes. At that. At those parishes, repentance is preached. The idea that we must avoid sin, the idea that the Catholic Church is the one true faith, there is no other way to heaven except through the Catholic Church, that we need to do penance fast. All these things, traditional prayers, traditional piety, it's, in practice, a different religion. Those two are not completely compatible. On the Venn diagram of those two religions, they're not overlapping 100%. In fact, I would argue they're probably only overlapping maybe 20% or something like that. [00:24:04] I'm not saying the sacraments aren't valid. [00:24:07] There's novus or parishes, anything like that. But I am saying that the way the typical Catholic practices their faith is just radically different. And there's just no other way to put it. And here's the thing. [00:24:20] The pope knows that the Vatican officials, who are 100% his lackeys and are trying to implement his vision, they know that. [00:24:28] That's why they want to shut down the traditional latin mass parishes. That's why they don't want traditional latin masses said at typical parishes. Remember, that's what they've, that's been the beginning, is get the traditional mass out of your typical parish. So there's no overlap. So that Venn diagram doesn't start to become more merged. So you don't have the typical Catholic believing things that the traditional latin mass Catholic believes. [00:24:52] It's why that's been the point of emphasis, is to get them out of regular parishes, corral them into their own, then we'll deal with that later, maybe by shutting him down or just kind of ignoring him, excommunicating the whole group, whatever. But that's been the purpose, because the pope knows that there is not a true compatibility between them and the pope. Like it or not, he endorses the religion. I talked about at the typical novus ordo parish of ecumenism, interreligious dialogue, the idea that basically multiple roads lead to heaven, maybe there is no hell. The most important thing is accompaniment and dialogue. The idea of penance and repentance and sin and all that. That's kind of thrown by the wayside. [00:25:37] And so because of that, he knows the people who are most in the way of his vision for the church. His agenda, for lack of a better term, are those who attend the traditional latin mass parish. So he first wants to get them, keep them from infecting. We're a virus. He doesn't want us to infect the normal parishes, so to speak, the average parish. And then what he's going to do after that, I don't know. [00:26:05] You know, like I said, maybe. I mean, I don't know how long he's going to be around. Maybe it's just a matter of corralling it to control it better. Maybe it's a matter of, you know, getting rid of them, whatever. But the point is, is that that's the real reason he's using the excuse of a few online traditional accounts to say, to shut down, to try to shut down, or at least greatly restrict the traditional latin mass. [00:26:29] So I really would urge people, don't fall for the gaslighting. [00:26:34] It's just simply gaslighting to say that somebody like Taylor Marshall or myself or whoever is to blame for the traditional latin mass being shut down. [00:26:43] When you say that, you are accusing the pope of being extremely petty, of abusing his authority because he. His feelings are hurt, or whatever the case may be, you're insulting the pope far more than I ever would even dream of. I try never to insult the pope. I always want to be very truthful about what he. What he believes and what he says. [00:27:03] It's insulting to say that he would just shut down the traditional mass because he doesn't like what few online traditionalists says it's just complete gaslighting. The truth is, he's wanted. He's known from the beginning that traditionalists are a problem, a thorn in his side, a virus keeping his, you know, his vision from happening. And so he's going to do everything he can to restrict their voice, to try to keep them away from normie Catholics, so to speak. So don't believe the gaslighting. We should always be praying for the restoration, for the full flowering of the ancient roman rite, because like I said at the beginning, for over a thousand years, it's been an instrument of holiness. It's got a proven track record. A track record, frankly, the novus Ordo doesn't have. [00:27:53] I know holy people who attend the novus Ordo, so don't make this about me saying that. I'm saying that you can't be holy if you attend the novus Ordo. In fact, somebody I respect more than anybody in the entire world passed away last week, and he attended Nova sorto his entire life. And he's one of the holiest, greatest Catholics I've ever known. [00:28:14] But the fact remains that the track record of the Novus Ordo pales in comparison to the track record of the traditional latin mass when it comes to producing holy saints, producing Catholics of great caliber. That's just a fact, just a reality. And so there's no way we should want to be shut down. We should want, in fact, to grow and become more and more prominent out in the world. So. Okay, so I'm gonna wrap it up there, but let me get a few questions and comments. So let me just go ahead and put them up here. [00:28:49] Says, sorry I'm late. Oh, no problem. Thanks for joining us. Anyway, people on both sides need to stop saying what they prefer. I used to say it, but it's not about our preferences. What is right and just in God's eye. That's a great point. I'm sure. I have said at times I prefer the traditional latin mass, and it's true. I do prefer it. It's not that. That's not true. It's more a matter of. That's not what matters when it comes to what do we want for the catholic church? Because what we want is whatever glorifies God the most. That's what we want. And so just saying I prefer the, you know, the latin master prefer the novus or whatever. What you're doing is you're basically, you are reducing it to your personal preferences and your personal preferences, and my personal preferences do not matter. So. That's a. That's a very good point. [00:29:34] Uh, okay. Uh, let me take on my glass readers. Uh, sontrop 87. You think it's petty for the Vatican to be monitoring folks who promote heretical schismatics like vegan O and the SSPX? Well, first of all, the SSPX is not heretical nor schismatic. And vegan o, to my knowledge, is not heretical. Um, I think, again, like I said, it's not that you can't monitor people who are very influential. In fact, they were obviously monitoring Vigano. I think you deal with people directly, and they dealt with vigano directly. So I want to commend the Vatican. Well, I don't think it was prudent for them to actually excommunicate him. I do commend them for dealing with him directly, not doing this effeminate, kind of passive aggressive. Just say all these problems out here. I hate that when you just say all, and the pope has done this, where you just say, oh, the traditionalists are, you know, these people do these terrible things, but you don't name names. If you got a problem with the person, you tell them to their face. You name them. They did that with vegan o. Okay, now, the SSPX. I would just say we should go along with what Francis does when it comes to the SSPX. He's granted them facilitate faculties, to hear confessions, to celebrate marriages, you know, weddings. Clearly, he does not think they are heretical schismatics or he would never have done that. So I just take the pope, Francis Lyon, when it comes to the SSPX, I think he. I think, yes, somebody, you know, in the church, there should be a certain eye out for every group. You kind of keep an eye out. I mean, there's a reason there's a hierarchy. [00:31:04] A bishop, for example, should keep an eye out for the people under him. So if, for example, my ordinary did not like what I was doing, I would just. I would hope that my ordinary, my ordinary bishop would contact me, probably through my pastor, and say, I'd like to come speak with you. I'd like you come and speak with me. I would be happy to do that. And I would listen very carefully and as obediently as possible, follow what he wanted. That's the way. [00:31:31] A non effeminate. By the way, I'm not saying feminine. Feminine is awesome for women. I'm saying effeminate, which is completely different. And that's what they're acting like. When you don't name names, you don't you just directly challenge people? If he's got someone's got problem, Taylor Marshall, contact the bishop down where Taylor Marshall lives. Have the bishop reach out to Taylor Marshall and deal with it. You deal with people directly. You don't, you don't do this like kind of just a passive aggressive, talking about groups of people and lambasting the whole group. [00:32:04] Okay. Mark McMillan. [00:32:08] I cannot pronounce names. I'm sorry, Mark. Our parish tried some experiments with the novus ordo at Orientum. Novus Ordo said in Latin, but that seems to have faded. Yeah, this is something that you still see in some places, but I do think it's less common now. I think particularly with some more pontificum Pope Benedict becoming more and more prominent, I think. I think that is, you know, that happened more and more. [00:32:34] I mean, having less and less that Novus Ordos, like the kind of the unicorn novice oros where they have adoring to him in Latin, became less common because mine just won't have a traditional mass. But it still does exist in certain places. No parishes that Novus or adoring. Tom, the problem is a lot of bishops, estrachidas custodus actually stopped. That said, you can't celebrate the novus or adorantum, which is of course, ludicrous, ridiculous. Nowhere, and Vatican II did say get rid of adorantum. Nowhere has the church ever said Adorington is bad. It can't because, I mean, obviously we adorant him is the way the liturgy has been celebrated for 2000 years, both east and west. And so, yeah, I do think it's a fading phenomenon. I commend, like if a pair simply cannot celebrate traditional at mass because of the bishop, whatever the reason, I commend the priests who make their novus ordo as reverent as possible. They do add orientum if they're allowed. They do communion on the tongue and altar rail, all that. They have only altar boys, all those things. I highly commend pastors who do that at their parishes. I mean, I think the traditional latin mass is the, is the ideal solution, but I understand it's not always the possible solution in every situation at this point in the church's life. So, but yeah, so I think that's less. Less. One last comment I just want to bring up is Spudero did call out CM, is that church militant? I'm not sure who you mean by that, but yeah, again, if a Vatican official, if the pope, whoever wants to call out somebody specifically, they should do that. I do think they should do it the right way, though. And I think it sounds like they did it the right way with vegan o in the sense they did reach out to him. They did try to have him come in for a trial. Whether or not that would have been a kangaroo court, I don't know. And he didn't, but he didn't show and then they excommunicated him. You need, you know, do that with individuals. Talk to them, you know, go through their local, ordinary things like that. And local ordinaries. Bishops, if you don't like what somebody in your diocese is doing publicly, then, then reach out to them. That's, that's the appropriate way you do things. That's, that's the manly way you do things. That's the, that's the christian way you do things. Okay, I think I'm going to wrap it up here. I appreciate the comments from everybody during the live stream, but just continue to pray for the growth, restoration, the growth of the ancient roman right. Pray for the pope as always. Oh, just real quick. [00:35:02] St. Michael's lint is beginning on the feast of the assumption. It goes through the feast of St. Michael on September 29, I think it is, yes. And it's a traditional practice. St. Francis Assisi probably made the most well known. This is where he received his stigmata. It's basically a second lent during the year where you do some of this traditional penitential practices of fasting, alms, giving penances during this period. And if you count the days, it is 46 days. Subtract the Sundays where you don't do penance and it's 40 days. So I'd encourage people, perhaps have an intention for the church, for peace in the world, for America, something like that, perhaps for, and do something for, for St. Michael's lent. Okay, that's it for now. Until next time, everybody. God love.